[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Front Sight training (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/9/2013 9:32:53 AM EDT
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Anyone have any experience with this outfit? My dad gets his newsletter emails and wants to attend a handgun class. It looks like a sales pitch in the emails. What do you guys think? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
| I have a doctor friend who is a lifetime member and goes 2-3 times per year and loves it. His wife and son also attend, and he usually recruits others to go also. Everyone I've talked to afterward loved it. Of course, YMMV, and some here will denigrate it, having never attended. |
| I won't ever patronize them, because I had to ask 5 times to be removed from their call list. My attitude is that if it takes that kind of marketing to get customers, there must not be a good reason to go there. Gunsite and others seem to stay pretty busy without all the sales B.S. |
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A bunch of buddies and I are all life members. The marketing is cheesy, but we love the training and go several times a year. This. I am a Diamond member and I enjoy the training but use the sale pitch time to eat and hydrate.. You can also buy foreclosed membership for just a little more then the price of a two day course. |
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I won't ever patronize them, because I had to ask 5 times to be removed from their call list. My attitude is that if it takes that kind of marketing to get customers, there must not be a good reason to go there. Gunsite and others seem to stay pretty busy without all the sales B.S. The guys marketing approach is completely detached from the training. There is no good reason whatsoever not to go.... training is top notch. |
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The marketing is awful. Give them a throwaway email address.
The training, however, is good. It is not GunSite quality, but it is definitely a cut above your standard NRA course or CCW course. My wife also took their ropes course and had a blast, so there are some good non-firearms offerings. PM me if you want more info! |
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I'm a Diamond Member.
I agree with the consensus that the marketing is awful. Piazza puts his fuckin face on everything and its very annouying. He sends out this ridiculous multi-page newsletters that are full of italics, bold fonts, capital letters, a ton of questions marks. Its garbage. Regardless, the training is top-notch. The instructors and lectures are great. It's good for anyone who is new to shooting or experienced. Whatever your level is, it will advance you from there. I recommend the place. I go on a regular basis. Do it. ETA: if you're looking to get a membership don't but directly from them unless you call and ask for a deal. They have promotions all the time. I wouldn't pay more than $500 for a membership. I know a guy who a few he'd sell. PM me if interested |
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I attended a class with about 30 other members about 5 years ago. The training was very, very good, and lots of fun. No "boot camp" mentality at all... but they are VERY strict about safety. This works for me.
I did some research on Piazza (the owner) and his organization. He's been sued several times, by ex-instructors and by unhappy "members." (He's marketing FS as a "shooting resort." He charges lots of money for various levels of memberships.) The details are all online. Bottom line: Training is fun, informative and worthwhile. Marketing and other business tactics may be a little shady. BTW don't pay full price! One of the marketing incentives is that new members, or members who increase their membership levels, get free training vouchers. Many of these people sell these vouchers online, so you can get a $2000 training package for less than $350 or so. (I went to the training because a generous Arfcom member GAVE some free training vouchers away! Can't get any better than that!) Lots of hotels/motels in Pahrump. There are a few brothels there too if you care to go. Or if you are cheap (like I am) you can camp outside the facility, within 1/8 mile of the main gate, as it is BLM land. I tent-camped; there were 2-3 motor homes there. |
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HERE IS A LINK
to one of the AARs wrote about it. SOMEONE ELSE'S AAR. |
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Scientology gun cult / real estate scam run by Moustachio Mustachzzia, the millionaire patriot. So you've taken training and seen this scam first hand, right? I have had a lifetime membership for several years and taken lots of training. It's been outstanding every time I've been. I have also taken training locally and at Gunsite as well and found that the training I received at Frontsight was the perfect foundation to build on. Yes, Piazza's marketing is a little heavy, but it is completely detached from the school once you get to the school. They never try to sell me a damn thing when I get there. |
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My buddy said he got a good deal on some life memberships and could probably get me one. What do they run usually? People are selling them for around $100 now, but they are starting to dry up. I paid $150/ea for my wife and I and have easily gotten our money's worth. |
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Quoted: Quoted: My buddy said he got a good deal on some life memberships and could probably get me one. What do they run usually? People are selling them for around $100 now, but they are starting to dry up. I paid $150/ea for my wife and I and have easily gotten our money's worth. This is my experience as well. |
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My buddy said he got a good deal on some life memberships and could probably get me one. What do they run usually? People are selling them for around $100 now, but they are starting to dry up. I paid $150/ea for my wife and I and have easily gotten our money's worth. This is my experience as well. Me too |
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"A buddies uncle" is the first indicator that you may want to obtain some more credible information on that.
I sincerely doubt that everyone is required to buy a Blade Tech holster when you get there. More likely, some people showed up with no holster, or some god awful fuzzball of an Uncle Mike's pancake holster and were directed to buy something from the shop that was safer and more conducive to the training. The human need to create a ridiculous story out of an outlying non-event, probably took care of the rest. Quoted:
A buddies uncle just got back. Said that everybody had to buy a bladetech holster first thing. WTF? |
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I attended a class with about 30 other members about 5 years ago. The training was very, very good, and lots of fun. No "boot camp" mentality at all... but they are VERY strict about safety. This works for me. I did some research on Piazza (the owner) and his organization. He's been sued several times, by ex-instructors and by unhappy "members." (He's marketing FS as a "shooting resort." He charges lots of money for various levels of memberships.) The details are all online. Bottom line: Training is fun, informative and worthwhile. Marketing and other business tactics may be a little shady. BTW don't pay full price! One of the marketing incentives is that new members, or members who increase their membership levels, get free training vouchers. Many of these people sell these vouchers online, so you can get a $2000 training package for less than $350 or so. (I went to the training because a generous Arfcom member GAVE some free training vouchers away! Can't get any better than that!) Lots of hotels/motels in Pahrump. There are a few brothels there too if you care to go. Or if you are cheap (like I am) you can camp outside the facility, within 1/8 mile of the main gate, as it is BLM land. I tent-camped; there were 2-3 motor homes there. Whoa whoa whoa...whoring is legal there? Life diamond platinum membership here I come. |
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You should be grateful that you have 2 true friends who care enough to stay in contact with you.
I personally like the giant newsletters with all the bizarre red and bold fonts. Makes me feel important and in on the hottest thing since free mineral rights in Saudi Arabia. Quoted:
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... run by Moustachio Mustachzzia... 
Yeah. It may be good training but the advertising annoys the shit out of me. Dr. Piazza and my mom are just about the only people who ever call me any more. 
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"A buddies uncle" is the first indicator that you may want to obtain some more credible information on that. I sincerely doubt that everyone is required to buy a Blade Tech holster when you get there. More likely, some people showed up with no holster, or some god awful fuzzball of an Uncle Mike's pancake holster and were directed to buy something from the shop that was safer and more conducive to the training. The human need to create a ridiculous story out of an outlying non-event, probably took care of the rest. Quoted:
A buddies uncle just got back. Said that everybody had to buy a bladetech holster first thing. WTF? brassburn speaks truth. I showed up to my first class (not front-sight) with a POS holster. At the first break I was in the pro-shop upgrading to what they had in stock which is very likely going to be a blade tech. I did this simply so I could keep up with the class. |
That's why I use the avatar. That WAS my facial expression while typing that out.
Actually I use the Col. Flagg avatar because my mother used to say that my belief that everyone is a commie, coupled with my tendency toward making outrageous and yet utterly dry remarks reminded her of him. Quoted:
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. Your avatar makes your posts extra special funny in this case, at least when I picture him saying it with that facial expression.  |
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Wothwhile training, cheesy marketing.
They're a bit different from most training organizations. A lot of trainers are "artisinal". You go to a Ken Hackathorn class because it's Ken Hackathorn. That's not the concept with Front Site. It's more like McDonald's and I don't mean that in a bad way. You don't go to Mickey D's because of the mad skillz of the fry chef on duty. All the training is standardized: everything about how you touch and handle the weapon reflects the training documents, and the role of the instructors is to teach to the documents. The training is solid and straightforward. You need to perform to a fairly high level to get a "pass". Get their manuals beforehand and do some practice on weapons manipulation. ETA: I did the pistol class. |
| I've taken the basic and advanced Carbine/Rifle course at Front Site. Was a great experience and would like to go back. I stayed in Vegas, so the hour drive was a bit much after the 1st day. The training days are long and you get your money's worth. My next trip...I'll check out the brothels! |
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Front Sight was banned from Professional Soldiers website, and they don't treat it well there. That's an SF member forum for those that don't know.
I spoke with a few guys locally who have attended and they seemed to really think it was great training. I asked more detailed questions about CCW drills, malf clearance techniques, and other staple drills that are common among reputable trainers like Viking Tactics, Todd Jarrett, Avery, Hackathorn, Vickers, Magpul, Haley Strategic...and I got headlights. One guy is a regular member and attends multiple times a year, yet has received no training on clearance of malf's, drawing from concealed carry, retention drills, alternate positions, and so forth. When I started talking about shooting from supine, seated, kneeling, barricade, and so forth, he wasn't familiar with any of those things, yet has spent thousands of rounds down at Front Sight. FS seems to be really fixated with the Weaver Stance as well for some reason. I guess it doesn't really matter as long as you can run rapid strings accurately, but one of the only organizations that has a true high volume shoot schedule that still uses Weaver is LAPD SWAT. Everyone else is pretty switched-on with modern training techniques and methods that are constantly updated and vetted in actual combat. I suspect Front Sight is better than no training at all, but what possible training scars are being taught there to unsuspecting clients? Can someone provide a breakdown of what a pistol course at Front Sight involves? I know there is a lot of classroom instruction. |
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I spoke with a few guys locally who have attended and they seemed to really think it was great training. I asked more detailed questions about CCW drills, malf clearance techniques, and other staple drills that are common among reputable trainers like Viking Tactics, Todd Jarrett, Avery, Hackathorn, Vickers, Magpul, Haley Strategic...and I got headlights. One guy is a regular member and attends multiple times a year, yet has received no training on clearance of malf's, drawing from concealed carry, retention drills, alternate positions, and so forth. When I started talking about shooting from supine, seated, kneeling, barricade, and so forth, he wasn't familiar with any of those things, yet has spent thousands of rounds down at Front Sight. Uh, don't know what's going on there. They taught standard malfunction drills, and presentations from concealed (generally loose outer garmet over a belt-carried weapon.) The 4-day handgun class is an introductory class; they've got a lot to cover, and they cover quite a bit, including low light and elementary room clearing. I'm fine with them not covering supine in a first class. Weaver was good enough for Colonel Cooper, and it isn't like you can't shoot that way. |
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Front Sight was banned from Professional Soldiers website, and they don't treat it well there. That's an SF member forum for those that don't know. I spoke with a few guys locally who have attended and they seemed to really think it was great training. I asked more detailed questions about CCW drills, malf clearance techniques, and other staple drills that are common among reputable trainers like Viking Tactics, Todd Jarrett, Avery, Hackathorn, Vickers, Magpul, Haley Strategic...and I got headlights. One guy is a regular member and attends multiple times a year, yet has received no training on clearance of malf's, drawing from concealed carry, retention drills, alternate positions, and so forth. When I started talking about shooting from supine, seated, kneeling, barricade, and so forth, he wasn't familiar with any of those things, yet has spent thousands of rounds down at Front Sight. FS seems to be really fixated with the Weaver Stance as well for some reason. I guess it doesn't really matter as long as you can run rapid strings accurately, but one of the only organizations that has a true high volume shoot schedule that still uses Weaver is LAPD SWAT. Everyone else is pretty switched-on with modern training techniques and methods that are constantly updated and vetted in actual combat. I suspect Front Sight is better than no training at all, but what possible training scars are being taught there to unsuspecting clients? Can someone provide a breakdown of what a pistol course at Front Sight involves? I know there is a lot of classroom instruction. I took my first formal gun course with them - 4 day handgun. They teach Weaver and ask that you at least try it, but they won't browbeat you if you switch to something else. I went back to isoscoles after the first day of live fire. Also managed to achieve Distinguished Graduate on the skills test for handgun - not bad for a first-timer.
The marketing is way cheesy. Piazza probably has referred to himself as "Doctor" more times than I have. The training is reasonable and safe, if not bleeding-edge. I do have a membership, and have also taken advanced handgun & a 2-day M4. I have no idea what classes your friend has taken, because malfunction clearances and draw stroke/presentation from ready are drilled until you do them in your sleep. The advanced handgun class covered reaction & support-side shooting, odd positions (prone, kneeling, etc.), live fire and red gun/live-action scenarios, no-light shooting, steel plates at 100 yards. Retention was only an evening practice, and I did not think it was enough, but there's only so much you can cram into a course. When it came to a choice between a local Chris Costa carbine course and a Front Sight carbine course, my money went to The Beard. One of these days, I'll probably try out FS's practical rifle class for comparison. |
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Front Sight was banned from Professional Soldiers website, and they don't treat it well there. That's an SF member forum for those that don't know. <snip> Are you saying the professional soldiers/SF types don't care for a facility that teaches BASIC handgun and rifle courses to beginners who may have never handled or shot a firearm? Get OUT! 
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Front Sight was banned from Professional Soldiers website, and they don't treat it well there. That's an SF member forum for those that don't know. <snip> Are you saying the professional soldiers/SF types don't care for a facility that teaches BASIC handgun and rifle courses to beginners who may have never handled or shot a firearm? Get OUT! Front Sight had figured out a way to embed their ads on Professional Soldier's website without permission, which did not bode well. For a lot of guys who have done 500rd+/day pistol and carbine courses that measure in weeks, not days, it's easy to understand that they might be critical of courses that teach old school techniques that were popular in the 1970's. It's a good thing that they maintain a high standard of safety, especially when you have large classes on the range with a high student to instructor ratio. That speaks well of them. |
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True on their preferring the Weaver stance but I shot isosceles and they didn't care. When I was there, we did 4 hours of classroom the first day. The vast majority of it was safety and their range rules and procedures. After that it was almost all range time (hot range after the first day). We did a LOT of malfunction drills, maybe that has been de-emphasized since I was there? There was a ton of presentation/draw work, including from concealment. We didn't do a lot of alternate positions other than kneeling and basic shooting from different sides of cover. The majority of training was centered around fast, safe, and accurate drawing and shooting.
There was a live fire shoot house course for each student, a night shoot, and a long "parking lot" engagement scenario against an instructor. I think what has to be remembered is that most of the pistol courses are 2 and 4 day defensive handgun classes. They are not Tier 1 Delta SEAL material by any stretch of the imagination so trying to label them from that perspective is a fools errand. I am actually a life member because at one point they lowered the price to $450 for two life memberships and a bunch of free course certificates that I can hand out. Hard to say no at that price. Front Sight is NOT a Gunsite or a Costa/Haley/Hackathorn et al operation. I suppose there are some advanced courses but lets look at it for what it is. Quoted:
I spoke with a few guys locally who have attended and they seemed to really think it was great training. I asked more detailed questions about CCW drills, malf clearance techniques, and other staple drills that are common among reputable trainers like Viking Tactics, Todd Jarrett, Avery, Hackathorn, Vickers, Magpul, Haley Strategic...and I got headlights. One guy is a regular member and attends multiple times a year, yet has received no training on clearance of malf's, drawing from concealed carry, retention drills, alternate positions, and so forth. When I started talking about shooting from supine, seated, kneeling, barricade, and so forth, he wasn't familiar with any of those things, yet has spent thousands of rounds down at Front Sight. FS seems to be really fixated with the Weaver Stance as well for some reason. I guess it doesn't really matter as long as you can run rapid strings accurately, but one of the only organizations that has a true high volume shoot schedule that still uses Weaver is LAPD SWAT. Everyone else is pretty switched-on with modern training techniques and methods that are constantly updated and vetted in actual combat. I suspect Front Sight is better than no training at all, but what possible training scars are being taught there to unsuspecting clients? Can someone provide a breakdown of what a pistol course at Front Sight involves? I know there is a lot of classroom instruction. |
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I'm biased but... Their training in the basics is sound, though they do teach weaver and weaver alone. For the price of gas, lodging, food, and their large ammo requirement, it would be more economical to go to a local trainer with shorter classes that you can spread throughout the month. Also, you don't know which trainer you are going to get, you get the one they give you. Where as going to a local trainer you know who you are getting and his experiences. |
10 years ago lifetime memberships were dirt cheap, I was going to purchase one having been to Vegas dozens of times. Then Nevada removed Florida off it's reciprocity list. And I've never been back..... Their loss not mine....... Nice facility, prices vary weekly depending on current sales pitch. They never end..... Memberships are transferable, training is A+ I've heard.
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