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Posted: 10/8/2002 4:41:58 PM EDT
Are encrypted radios legal for civilian ownership? I don't see any reason why they would not be but I have not been able to find any information or radios for sale. Anybody know where to buy a set if they are legal? Thanks
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 5:02:56 PM EDT
Encrypted radios should be legal to own- no regulations about what you can broadcast/receive unless you are a commercial radio station. Only limitations would be FCC liscence requirement for power if applicable. Don't know where to buy them though.
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 5:04:50 PM EDT
Yes, they are legal for civilian ownership but your FCC license must be amended to include the proper emission designator for encrypted operation for your transmissions to be technically legal. However, no civilian may own or possess encrypted products that use "Type 1" encryption, also known as Fascinator encryption. Such equipment is a controlled item, and the keyfill materials are also controlled items. All these products are also classified to the same level of classification as the key in use. Your best bet for actually getting encrypted radios is to locate surplus encrypted Motorola radios on the used radio market. Be certain that the radios are EQUIPPED with encryption boards, and the encryption boards must all be of the same encryption type or they won't be compatible with each other. And you will need a keyloader that handles that encryption type, and cables suitable for loading keys into these radios. Motorola's radios are identified as SECURENET if they are encryption capable, in addition to their regular model name. I would recommend Motorola Saber Securenet radios as they are superb radios in every respect, are reprogrammable via your local radio shop (or you may have a hobbyist in your area that has the programming setup...I do.) for a nominal fee. Motorola's encryption types are known as DES, DES-XL, DVP, DVP-XL, and DVI. DVI is an export version, the I means International. Any of these encryption modes will withstand an attempt to break them for FAR longer than any conceivable tactial operation would last, on average. It'd take weeks for even the fastest supercomputer cluster to run through all the possible keys for the DES format alone. I know of a reputable dealer who probably has what you need in stock. Email me and I will provide specifics and direct you to him. I've dealt with him for many years and done some work for him. I can help to ensure that you get ALL that you will need. CJ
Link Posted: 10/8/2002 6:12:13 PM EDT
I'm familiar with the Jedi series.. they'll do crypto too. bust open the wallet and pay a visit to the gang at the "Galvin Centre" in "Schaumberg" [:)]
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 6:20:34 AM EDT
Yes, SOME of the Jedi series radios will do encryption...the MTS2000 models, to be precise. But encryption hardware for those radios is rare on the used market. Most encryption customers (that would be the military and the federal government) selected first the MX series, then the Saber series, and lately the Astro Saber and XTS-3000 series for their encryption needs. They didn't buy many encrypted MTS2000's. Encrypted MX's are VERY inexpensive these days, and they're usually still quite reliable though they're getting quite long in the tooth and they're not easy set up on new channels. Operating on their original channels (usually federal government channels) is a risky business! CJ
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 6:25:25 AM EDT
I think some frequencies are not allowed to have encrypted communications, such as CB-Radio.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 6:38:28 AM EDT
Like this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1774144968
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 6:41:16 AM EDT
CMJOHNSON has it right. I've used the Sabre Secure radios in the military (Army) and they work great. IIRC, they are PC programmable with the correct cables.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 1:25:51 PM EDT
Thanks for the info guys. So if I understand that means only surplus radios are really available to the public, but they work well and are easy to get. How much is "very inexpensive?" [:)] 7IDL, where is that?
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 3:55:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rickyj: Thanks for the info guys. So if I understand that means only surplus radios are really available to the public, but they work well and are easy to get. How much is "very inexpensive?" [:)] 7IDL, where is that?
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very expensive is this: $3,500 to 4,000 for a new Motorola Astro III or XTS3000 with the latest software upgrades, encrytion modules, and then you have to somehow find the software to program the radios, or a shop to do it. Motorola guards their RSS very heavily. Then you will need key loaders, KVLs can run up to several thousnad dollars also, and don't forget RIB boxes, cables and such. Astros are also VHF or UHF, and operate on and close to gov't freqs. With the new P25 digital setup and encryption, it's very hard to break. Are you looking for digital or analog? Analog encryption is interceptable and able to be unencrypted but not by the average guy. Digital is not easy to break on it's own and digital encrypted is extremely hard to crack. Just get a low power radio on a odd (legal) freq and keep it short.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 3:59:43 PM EDT
no regulations about what you can broadcast/receive unless you are a commercial radio station
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That's bad advice and the FCC would disagree with you. Maybe you are talking about a walkie talkies from Kmart. You will need a FCC HAM license to stay legal while operating on VHF UHF motorola public safety radios found on ebay, not to mention you will need to stick to HAM freqs and not just think you can talk on any freqs that are in the radio, unless you want to get a visit from the FCC.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 4:03:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 4:08:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: And encryption, codes, or anything designed to disguise the meaning of your transmission is verboten on amatuer radio frequencies.
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Excellent point.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 5:11:03 PM EDT
Misinformation is floating around here! Ham licenses are limited to ham radio operations ONLY, on ham frequencies ONLY. On the amateur radio (ham) channels, you can't run tactical ops, you can't do business, you can't hunt deer, and you absolutely can't run encryption or use any codes that serve to obscure the meaning of the transmission. Essentially a ham license is for communicating only with other ham radio operators. The frequencies that encryption can be used on are many of the VHF (136 to 174 MHz) and UHF (450 to 520 MHz) commercial channel allocations, most of which have to be individually licensed for you to operate on. There are some itinerant business (in both VHF and UHF) channels that are quick and easy to get licensed on, and the VHF MURS channels require no licenses. As for radio costs...all the radios I've mentioned could cost as much as four thousand dollars new, when they were current production of course. Maybe even a little more with the right options. Used market value on the old MX's is down under a hundred bucks a radio on average. Sabers go for 100 to 400 these days, depending on features. I'd recommend them. Astro Sabers and XTS series radios are current technology, and I just recently sold my last ones because I wasn't using them. They easily can cost 4000 dollars fully loaded. Used market price starts at about 800 bucks for a basic model with no keypad, no display, and a max of just 32 (Astro Saber) or 48 (XTS) channels. Loaded models can bring near 2000 bucks a pop even on ebay. They do EVERYTHING, practically. I'm completely set up and legal for programming most of these radios, by the way. I bought the software directly from Motorola, and it wasn't particularly cheap but they send me new updated versions on a regular basis. Motorola WILL sell encrypted radios to the public, but you have to get in touch with a state level Motorola sales rep to get them. The local radio shops don't have access to those product lines. CJ
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 5:42:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: Misinformation is floating around here! ... Motorola WILL sell encrypted radios to the public, but you have to get in touch with a state level Motorola sales rep to get them. The local radio shops don't have access to those product lines. CJ
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Yes, but as you point out, the freqs in which the radios operate in are mainly gov't, HAM, or business. All of these are restricted in some sense. How are you gonna set up on 170.000 as an individual encrypted? You can't. People need to know that if a Saber is set up for a limited VHF or UHF range they may not be able to legally use the radio. There are different ways motorola sets up the radios, typically i've seen the older saber 1s have a very limited freq range. That's something you can't change with the RSS.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 6:02:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: Misinformation is floating around here! Ham licenses are limited to ham radio operations ONLY, on ham frequencies ONLY. On the amateur radio (ham) channels, you can't run tactical ops, you can't do business, you can't hunt deer, and you absolutely can't run encryption or use any codes that serve to obscure the meaning of the transmission. Essentially a ham license is for communicating only with other ham radio operators.
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What do you mean I can't hunt deer with ham radio? If my hunting buddy is also a licensed ham, what would be the problem?
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 6:56:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rickyj: ... 7IDL, where is that?
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It's Motorola's main training centre at their HQ in Illinois. They have a pretty cool museum if you've got an hour or so to spare.. I don't know if you can get in the place though.. Security at all the gates. [url]http://www.motorola-wls.com/north_america/na_frame.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 7:05:18 PM EDT
[url=http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_01/47cfr97_01.html]Title 47--Telecommunication -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER I--FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION PART 97--AMATEUR RADIO SERVICE [/url]
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 6:41:31 AM EDT
As for VHF Sabers...there's a trick. The ones that operate in the 136 to 150.8 bandsplit are limited by their internal parts and can't be pushed much out of band. But ALL the other VHF bandsplit models (High power 150.8 to 162, and 157 to 174 and any other high power split I can't remember at the moment but specifically excluding the 136 to 150.8 split) can be reprogrammed via the normal RSS as LOW power (H33 series instead of H43) and it will give the broad 146 to 174 MHz split. Receive performance will be just fine as the receiver systems are identical in all these models except the low split ones, and transmitter performance out of their designated bandsplit will be acceptable in nearly every case. There are also two rare versions of the RSS that are floating around "out there" that will push any Saber up to 10 MHz out of its rated bandsplit limits, in any configuration. The VCO's frequency range at which it will lock up reliably is the limiting factor, and some VCO's are better than others in this regard. CJ
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 6:49:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2002 6:53:51 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 8:25:23 AM EDT
Sorry for the dumb question but I have seen a few threads on ham and I still don't know what it is exactly? I take it as being a type of radio like a cb only better but I'm not sure. Can someone recommend a website where I can learn more about this subject, I just got rid of my old cb because it didn't really work well over here, and it was hard to get a person on the other end. I would eventually like to get something better for my personal(non biz) use. Thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 10/10/2002 8:42:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2002 8:48:29 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
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