Posted: 9/20/2002 7:29:33 PM EDT
| Have you read the "Left Behind" series books? What did you think? Do you believe this an accurate fictionalization of the Tribulation, and Prophesies? |
|
I liked the first one; And most of the rest, but the latest one seemed to drag. Not sure on Question 3. I am aware of pre- mid- and post Tribulation Rapture beliefs- thie story is clearly pre-trib. To me that would seem odd- wouldn't the believers stay to convert more, at least 'till crap got really heavy- rather than just dissappear before the show? nevertheless, I'm waiting for the next. |
|
I've heard several interviews with both the authors. They are both noted scholars of end times prophecy. Haven't read any of them myself but will get around to it. There is some debate over if the Rapture will occur before or after the Tribulation. As stated, I haven't read the books. How do the authors address this? What is their interpretation? |
|
What about this, though? 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. TS |
|
[b]Echo 6 wrote: Dose the Bible say anything at all about a rapture? Pre, Post ,Or Mid Tib? I am no theologian, but I was raised Catholic and attended Pariocal schools and I've NEVER heard about the Rapture. E6 [/b] No offense at all in me saying this, and I only say this because I also was raised catholic, but found out different once I left home and lived on my own, But the reason why you most likely have not heard anything about the rapture is most likely because you were raised Catholic. As I was growing up in the catholic church I never was encouraged to read the bible let alone heard anything about the rapture. Back in August of 1993 I had some interesting things happen to me and I realized that I needed god in my life, so I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior, hence the term being born again. Upon this I had decided to go back to the catholic church, mainly because that is what I grew up with and that is all I knew. Also at the same period in time I had some friends of mine that were going to a Four Square Church and they kept saying to me come to church with us, I declined, I said nope, I am a catholic. So anyway I started going back to catholic church and had enrolled in a course that basically re-entered one back into the catholic church. We started going through all the catholic doctrine and all that. Then we came upon studying the Bible, this was a two day deal, I had thought that that was odd. But anyway to make a long story short I had asked the priest a question about pergatory, because no were in the bible could I find it, and I had asked him about the rapture. Well his first answer to me about pergatory was that he said that it was like a holding place for people before they go to heaven, I said well then if this is the case show me in the bible were this is, he could not answer me, he only could reference catholic doctrine, I asked about rapture, and he said well only caltholics will be in heaven. I said really, he said yes, I said well the bible does not say anything about only catholics going to heaven, it does say that people who accept jesus as there lord and savior will go to heaven,and I said that could include catholics,baptists,methodists,and holly rollers, but the key thing is if you have accepted jesus as your lord and savior, I said just because you are a catholic does not give you a free ride to heaven. So then his next response was, you need to stop reading your bible, and read more of the catholic doctrine, I said well I think this will be my last meeting with you and I will be finding a new church to go to. So then I started attending the Four Square church my friends had been trying to drag me to for months, and I have been there for 8 years know! So although this is only my experience with the catholic church, but I dont think the catholic church is really into leading people to read and discuss the bible, it is more into following the doctrine of the catholic church! As far as the rapture goes it would appear that it is scriptural, it is just that there is differences in opinion as to when the rapture will occur, will it happen before the tribulation,during the tribulation, or after the tribulation! Me personally I try not to get myself all tied up in knots about it, I try to live my life the best I can each day before the lord and if he takes me before the tribulation so be it, if he takes me during the tribulation so be it, if he takes me after the tribulation so be it. Either way in my lifetime I will see the lord one way or the other! |
|
Quoted: Dose the Bible say anything [b]at all[/b] about a rapture? Nope. The hole idea of a rapture is a strictly US-American christian fundamentalist only. And even here nobody has believed in this until about the 1840s, when this idea started to become popular here in the US, and only here, and only amongst certain pseudo-christian fundamentalists. And about the Left Behind series: Arggh, those books are not only badly written, by the time you realize the authors are too dumb to read a bible, it doesn't matter anymore. |
|
I've read several of the books and, if nothing else, they prompted me to study my bible more.... not a bad thing. Here is a link to an essay that might be of interest: [url]http://duncanlong.com/science-fiction-fantasy-short-stories/rapture.html[/url] The essay was written by Duncan Long... an author some of you may recognize. He's also a well know writer of gun books/ articles. You can find a listing of some of his other essays and stories at the following link: [url]http://duncanlong.com/science-fiction-fantasy-short-stories/short-stories.html[/url] |
|
The books are mis-leading, there is NO pre-trib rapture... [b]1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, [red]that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord[/red] shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 [red]Then we which are alive and remain[/red] shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord[/b] Pretty clear, no "Taking away" until His return. [b]Mark 13:1 ¶ And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.[/b] The above is Fulfilled prophecy in 70 AD [b]3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? 5 ¶ And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: [/b] Now He describes the tribulation.. [b]6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. 8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. 9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. 10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. 12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 ¶ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. [/b] Read the following carefully... [b]24 ¶ But in those days, [red]after that tribulation[/red], the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 [red]And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven[/red][/b] It is obvious. NO pre-trib rapture in the Lord's own words....The above is only one demonstration of many as to why the church is largely apostate today... |
|
One of my hobbies is studying eschatology, or the study of last things (end times). LeHaye has written a lot of study books on the end times, and I do agree with most of his interpretation. Unfortunatley, the Left Behind books are rather poorly written, so I found it hard to read 'em. As for the rapture, it's not mentioned by name, but there are two important pieces of "evidence" that most pre-tribulationists (those who believe we (Christians) will be taken up before the Tribulation) use. The first is 1 Thessalonians 4:17 which says "[W]e who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever". The second is just the narration point-of-view that John uses in descibing his Revelation vision. In the midst of the times of hte tribulation, he then is taken to view the events from up in heaven. So, it's a hotly-debated aspect of the end-times. I used to be a strong pre-tribulationist, but I'm moving more to a post-Trib now. |
|
[b]Yes there is a Rapture[/b] Comments and info from a thread I was in a while back: [url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=116453&w=searchPop[/url] Some quotes from the thread: For the record, the word rapture comes from the Latin word rapturo, which in turn was a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" found in 1 Thes 4:17. You can call it the pre-trib rapture, the pre-trib rapturo, or the pre-trib caught up - it's all the same thing. Jesus did say, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," (1 Thes 5:9) "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev 3:10) In 2 Thessalonians the apostle Paul speaks of a "he" that will restrain the advent of the Antichrist. The restrainer's removal is required before that the Antichrist can be revealed. Finally "The Great Day of Deception" What event could deceive all those, even the elect, even Moses ? A mass disappearance and a false explanation as to what happened. Think about the chaos that would ensue after the rapture and the explanations that would be drawn as to the cause of it. a promise given to the church in Philadelphia (Asia Minor, not America). Going back to Matthew 24, Jesus says that the days of tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect: "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened." More reasons for the pre trib rapture. Revelation 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will be raptured before the tribulation Jesus did say, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). The only time frame I can think of where believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation. Margaret MacDonald was not the original one to speak about the pre trib rapture in the 1800's. Epharaem the Syrian said in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," (1 Thes 5:9) "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev 3:10) Matt 24 is talking about the second coming. Paul introduced the "mystery" of the Catching away of church saints. You don't hear about the rapture until after Paul says. "behold I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, (die physically) but we shall all be changed (refering the the glorification of all the churches physical bodies at the "catching up" event." Go read the entire thread, it has some good arguments from a lot of people in it. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Dose the Bible say anything [b]at all[/b] about a rapture? Nope. The hole idea of a rapture is a strictly US-American christian fundamentalist only. And even here nobody has believed in this until about the 1840s, when this idea started to become popular here in the US, and only here, and only amongst certain pseudo-christian fundamentalists. And about the Left Behind series: Arggh, those books are not only badly written, by the time you realize the authors are too dumb to read a bible, it doesn't matter anymore. Actually Kar98 The Margaret MacDonald Origin One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald. Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched. With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture. |
|
Quoted: [b]Yes there is a Rapture[/b] God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," (1 Thes 5:9) Nothing there to indicate an escape from the Trib.. This is in reference to eternal life. "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also [blue]will keep[/blue] thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev 3:10) Check your Greek. "Will keep" means; [red]5083 threw tereo tay-reh’-o from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to 2334); TDNT-8:140,1174; v AV-keep 57, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1, hold fast 1; 75 1) to attend to carefully, take care of 1a) to guard 1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is 1c) to observe 1d) to reserve: to undergo something For Synonyms see entry 5874[/red] It is clear, the meaning is to"watch over". Not take away. G*d will go through the trib with us, and guide us, not remove us. Matt 24 is talking about the second coming. Paul introduced the "mystery" of the Catching away of church saints. You don't hear about the rapture until after Paul says. "behold I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, (die physically) but we shall all be changed (refering the the glorification of all the churches physical bodies at the "catching up" event." Again no reference as to timing, but will take place at the Lords return.... |
|
Quoted: [b]Yes there is a Rapture[/b] Finally "The Great Day of Deception" This term is not found in scripture. What event could deceive all those, even the elect, even Moses ? A mass disappearance and a false explanation as to what happened. Think about the chaos that would ensue after the rapture and the explanations that would be drawn as to the cause of it. a promise given to the church in Philadelphia (Asia Minor, not America). Going back to Matthew 24, Jesus says that the days of tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect: "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. [red]If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."[/red] Your own quote undoes your arguement. Why "cut short" those days if the elect are not here? Instead he will shorten those days for the elects sake. More reasons for the pre trib rapture. Revelation 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which [red]came out of great tribulation[/red], and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Further proof that believers will be here for the trib. These are those believers killed in the trib for the sake of the Gospel, but held fast. I.E. did not take the "Mark of the beast" for the gospels sake. Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will be raptured before the tribulation Jesus did say, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). The only time frame I can think of where believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation. Not if they were taught the lie of a pre-trib rapture. Once they realize there has been no rapture, they will lose faith, and will be surprised at the return of Christ, and accompanying "rapture". Thus it will happen at "an hour as ye think not"....... Margaret MacDonald was not the original one to speak about the pre trib rapture in the 1800's. Epharaem the Syrian said in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Irrelevent, non-scriptual quotes... |
|
My fiancee read the first one & liked it enough to talk about it for days & to ask me to buy the set. Which is odd, 'cuz I've never seen her show any interest in prophecy previous to that time. Doubly odd because the full set costs about as much as a nice used gun. My $0.02 - For the sake of argument, let's say it's a post-trib rapture & rely on the other signs - of which there are plenty. |
|
Quoted: Check your Greek. "Will keep" means; [red]5083 threw tereo tay-reh’-o from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to 2334); TDNT-8:140,1174; v AV-keep 57, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1, hold fast 1; 75 1) to attend to carefully, take care of 1a) to guard 1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is 1c) to observe 1d) to reserve: to undergo something For Synonyms see entry 5874[/red] It is clear, the meaning is to"watch over". Not take away. G*d will go through the trib with us, and guide us, not remove us. What ? You didn't want to talk about the word "rapture" which comes from the Latin word rapturo. Translation of the Greek verb "caught up" found in 1 Thes 4:17. You can call it the pre-trib rapture, the pre-trib rapturo, or the pre-trib caught up - it's all the same thing. Why try to distract from the topic of the word rature and then focus on "Will keep" ? Was it easier ? Lets look at the quote of "Come up Hither" Rev. 4:1, where it says, "come up hither," as a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church, leaving Revelation chapters 1 through 3 as a description of the Church Age. After the shout to "come up hither," the church is not mentioned in scripture at all. The attention of scripture switches from the Church to the Jews living in Israel. [b]He That is Taken Out of the Way (2 Thes. 2:7) [/b] Before the Antichrist can be revealed, Paul said a certain "He" must be taken out of the way. According to 2 Thess. 2:7, the "He" that must be removed is widely thought to be the Holy Spirit. It has been promised that the Holy Spirit would never leave the Church, and without the working of the Holy Spirit remaining on earth, no one could be saved during the tribulation. The removal of the Church, which is indwelt by the Holy Ghost, would seem the best explanation for this dilemma. The working of the Holy Spirit could go on during the tribulation, but His influence would be diminished because of the missing Church. [b]God Hath Not Appointed Us to Wrath[/b] In 1 Thessalonians 5:9 Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath. This wrath is plainly God's anger that will be poured out during the tribulation. Pre-trib believers interpret this as meaning that Christians will be removed from the earth. Post-trib believers tell a different story. They describe this as meaning that God will protect Christians during the tribulation and pour this wrath out on the unbelievers only. This idea runs against the statement made in Rev. 13:7, where the Antichrist is given power to make war with the saints and to overcome them. A post-trib view would make God's promise of protection from wrath into a lie. In years past, it was possible to think of being protected from the guns and swords of that day. Today, when any major war would involve nuclear and chemical weapons, it's impossible to expect that same kind of protection. When Nagasaki, Japan was bombed during W.W.II, the bomb exploded over a Catholic church. Everyone that was in the center of the explosion died, both Christians and non-Christians. The only way to validly interpret God's promise of protection from wrath is by viewing I Thess. 5:9 as the bodily removal of the Church from this world. In the pre-trib scenario, after we rise to meet the Lord in the air, we will go to heaven and abide there seven years. At the end of the seven years, Christ will come down to earth, defeat the Antichrist, and cleanse the temple. In a post-trib rapture we would rise in the air to meet the Lord, then do a 180-degree U-turn and come back down to earth. It states in Rev. 1:7 that Christ will appear out of the clouds and come down to earth. It says in Zech. 14:4 that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If He's already headed our way, why would we need to be caught up to meet Him? |
|
[b]Devils Advacate Wrote: MinuteMan3 Congratulations! You have found the difference between Religion and Salvation =) I am oh-so glad you chose the latter! DA [/b] Saved by grace, that is what is all about, nothing I did, but everything that Jesus Did! Pre trib,mid trib,post trib, dont make no difference to me, either way when I die, I will meet my maker! Life is to short to be consumed by such debates! The harvest is plenty, but the workers are few! There is a job to do,work for the lord,because the workers will come from the harvest,heavenly rewards should be our focus, trust in the lord, and he will take care of you! I heard a saying shortly after I became a christian and I try to keep this in balance. " Sometimes people can be so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good, and sometimes people can be so earthly minded that they are no heavely good!" Attidute is everything, and balance is the key!" |