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Posted: 9/12/2002 7:44:28 AM EDT
[url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/749373/posts[/url]
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:02:09 AM EDT
From the article you posted. " Sept. 11 was one chapter in a 1400-year jihad. Every day, the World Trade Center massacre is reenacted on a smaller scale somewhere in the Third World – Jewish women and children are burned alive in a bus on the West Bank, a missionary is beheaded in the Philippines, gunmen shoot up a church in Pakistan (deliberately firing into the prostrate bodies of women trying to shield their children), ancient monasteries and convents are destroyed in Kosovo, a woman is sentenced to death for adultery in Nigeria, Hindus are murdered in the Kashmir, a nun is found beheaded in Baghdad -- and the beat goes on. Genocide in the Sudan, ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, religious persecution in Saudi Arabia, calls for another holocaust in mosques from Mecca to Gaza, the imposition of Islamic law in Nigeria, forced conversions in Indonesia, synagogues burned in France, Jews attacked across Europe – these are everyday events, as Third World and much of the First slowly turns Islamic green." Here is "their" perspective, if you will read it. " NEW YORK (AZZAM): As the World gears up to mark the first anniversary of the 11 September attacks, we would like to pay tribute to the innocent victims of terrorism: innocent men, women and children who have been brutally murdered without any crime, without any television channel to mention their plight, without any magazine to print their photos, without any newspaper to list their biographies and without any cotton quilts to carry their name patches. On this day, we remember the 121,237 Iraqi Muslim babies who have died in these last twelve months (World Heath Organisation statistics) as a direct result of American-imposed sanctions on Iraq, preventing critical child-medicines from reaching Iraqi hospitals. Three times as many Iraqi babies die every month as a result of these sanctions, than were killed in the 11 September 2001 attacks. On this day, we remember the 31,202 Afghan Muslim civilians who have been brutally murdered since October 2001, by American warplanes indiscriminately bombing their villages, houses, mosques, hospitals and wedding parties. Ten times as many innocent Afghans have been killed by Americans than were killed in the 11 September 2001 attacks. On this day, we remember the 6084 Indian Muslims killed and burnt in cold-blooded killing orgies organised by the Indian Government in Gujarat, during the last twelve months. On this day, we remember the 5078 Chechen Muslim civilians who have been killed by Russian aerial bombing during the last twelve months, having been given a green light by the American 'War on Terror'. On this day, we remember the 3039 Palestinian Muslims who have been murdered by Americans (via weapons held in the hands of Israeli soldiers) since September 2001. On this day, we remember the 2170 Uzbek Muslims who have been taken away from their homes by the American-backed Karimov Government in the middle of the night, never to be seen again. On this day, we remember the 1473 Chinese Muslims who have been executed in public after having been forced to drink alcohol and the flesh of swine, in the East Turkestan (Muslim) region of China. On this day, we remember the 1399 Kashmiri Muslims murdered and the 852 gang-rapes carried out by Hindu and Sikh soldiers in Occupied Kashmir. On this day, we remember the 1261 Indonesian Muslims massacred by Christians in the Maluku region of Indonesia, having been supplied with M-16 assault rifles, rocket launchers and funds by the Netherlands. On this day, we remember the 598 Muslim, Mujahid prisoners being kept in small cages in Guantanamo Bay, after their beards were forcibly shaved, their hands and feet were bound and their eyes and ears were covered, in conditions where they are subject to malaria, heatstroke and other tropical diseases. On this day, we remember the deaths of the hearts of 1.2 billion Muslims Worldwide who are blind to the above, but awake to a few people killed on 11 September 2001. [AZZAM PUBLICATIONS, 11 SEPTEMBER 2002]"
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:05:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 8:08:00 AM EDT by garandman]
Mods - What's the bag limit on # of Arab hating threads by one poster per day, BEFORE its racism???? [rolleyes] I can tell you how many before you just ignore the threads.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:26:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the deaths of the hearts of 1.2 billion Muslims Worldwide who are blind to the above, but awake to a few people killed on 11 September 2001. [AZZAM PUBLICATIONS, 11 SEPTEMBER 2002]"
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"...to a few people killed on 11 September 2001". This statement says all about them...
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:39:30 AM EDT
the post by matrix proves the truth of the post by 9divdoc....time for another Charles Martel!
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:40:10 AM EDT
well, I guess what "I" get out of Matrixs' post is that ......if the muslems didn't have so may terrorists trying to destoy our culture......there wouldn't be any dead innocent muslems..........
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 9:49:46 AM EDT
Muslims kill themselves in order to achieve their goals. Its a shame there are that many martyrs to a worthless "god" and even more worthless religion. The bastardized beliefs of these pieces of shit don't mean crap to me, as long as we wipe their disease from the face of humanity and history. Lets all pray that the "gates of hell" open in the middle east. I hope we can blow mecca back to hell also. THEN maybe those fucking bastards will take notice that we aren't fucking around anymore. Matrix, all of your "dead muslims" can't hold a candle to one of our American's killed on 9/11. Fuck your people, they've done nothing for humanity recently. Murderers and rapists run rampant in the muslim societies as well, more so than anywhere else in the world. Go eat a BLT and think about your worthless religion.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 9:58:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72: Matrix, all of your "dead muslims" can't hold a candle to one of our American's killed on 9/11. Fuck your people....
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That's over the line dude. You owe an apology. beleive what you want, but that's just wrong.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 10:37:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 11:18:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 12:43:13 PM EDT
"On this day, we remember the 598 Muslim, Mujahid prisoners being kept in small cages in Guantanamo Bay, after their beards were forcibly shaved, their hands and feet were bound and their eyes and ears were covered, in conditions where they are subject to malaria, heatstroke and other tropical diseases" I will be happy to think about these MUSLIM. I wish we would shave their heads off their body!
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 12:54:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: Moral equivalence rears its ugly head again.
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Its easy to say that but you ignore the point that this IS a REAL contention for them. It is a thorn in their side & they will not consider peace until the Israeli situation is dealt with in a "just" manner. Honestly, why do you & others ignore this point since it is at the heart of why they hate America? [url]http://islamonline.net/english/News/2002-09/12/article23.shtml[/url]
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 12:56:48 PM EDT
On this day, we remember the 598 Muslim, Mujahid prisoners being kept in small cages in Guantanamo Bay, after their beards were forcibly shaved, their hands and feet were bound and their eyes and ears were covered, in conditions where they are subject to malaria, heatstroke and other tropical diseases.
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Including the above in a list of perceived grievances cheapens and discredits the rest. First, because the "suffering" of the detainees has been exaggerated beyond absurdity. Their living conditions are barely worse than the soldiers guarding them. Second, and more troubling, it articulates actual [i]solidarity[/i] with detainees, men who were detained not simply because they are Muslims, but because they were [b]captured enemy combatants whose sympathies lied with the Taliban and Al Qaeda.[/b] Matrix, I don't disagree with everything you say. But you stepped in it here.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 1:00:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matrix: Honestly, why do you & others ignore this point since it is at the heart of why they hate America? ]
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I have asked this question, and here's the answer I got: "I don't care if America did anything wrong. I don't want to know why they think what they think. I just want to see Muslims killed." No joke, man. Apparently, they wish for perpetual war. Don't learn from your mistakes. Don't THINK about anything. Just make sure that a generation of gerneations of our children can continue fighting and dying and sufferring. It amazes me. It really does.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 1:02:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 1:36:43 PM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By CLP:
On this day, we remember the 598 Muslim, Mujahid prisoners being kept in small cages in Guantanamo Bay, after their beards were forcibly shaved, their hands and feet were bound and their eyes and ears were covered, in conditions where they are subject to malaria, heatstroke and other tropical diseases.
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Including the above in a list of perceived grievances cheapens and discredits the rest. Matrix, I don't disagree with everything you say. But you stepped in it here.
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Truth, Matrix. I'll put our record of humane treatment of POW's up against Arabic treatment of POW's any day.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 1:19:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 1:22:48 PM EDT by Spade]
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 121,237 Iraqi Muslim babies who have died in these last twelve months (World Heath Organisation statistics) as a direct result of American-imposed sanctions on Iraq, preventing critical child-medicines from reaching Iraqi hospitals. Three times as many Iraqi babies die every month as a result of these sanctions, than were killed in the 11 September 2001 attacks.
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Well, if Iraq would comply with the document THEY SIGNED, and ceased building weapons of mass destruction (which we know they are), then that would stop. Iraq is getting MORE then enough food to feed these kids and their health care, but it wouldn't get Muslim sympathy if Saddamn kept his own people alive.
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 31,202 Afghan Muslim civilians who have been brutally murdered since October 2001, by American warplanes indiscriminately bombing their villages, houses, mosques, hospitals and wedding parties. Ten times as many innocent Afghans have been killed by Americans than were killed in the 11 September 2001 attacks.
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I call Shenanigans on that figure. Plus, most Afghans seem to like that the Taliban went away.
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 6084 Indian Muslims killed and burnt in cold-blooded killing orgies organised by the Indian Government in Gujarat, during the last twelve months.
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Anybody got a figure for Indian deaths? I remember a couple of Mulsim riots.
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 5078 Chechen Muslim civilians who have been killed by Russian aerial bombing during the last twelve months, having been given a green light by the American 'War on Terror'.
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Lots of Chechen's died by Russian hands before any green light from us. Anybody got a figure for Russian deaths?
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 3039 Palestinian Muslims who have been murdered by Americans (via weapons held in the hands of Israeli soldiers) since September 2001.
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Well, when you try and wipe out a people with nowhere to retreat to, bad shit happens. Sun Tzu said not to try and wipe out a people with their backs against the wall, and we all know that Palestinian goal is to wipe out the Jews in Isreal.
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 1473 Chinese Muslims who have been executed in public after having been forced to drink alcohol and the flesh of swine, in the East Turkestan (Muslim) region of China.
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More Christians have been killed by the Chinese. Shit, China has killed more people then that for no good goddamn reason.
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 1399 Kashmiri Muslims murdered and the 852 gang-rapes carried out by Hindu and Sikh soldiers in Occupied Kashmir.
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I don't know much about Kashmir, but I'm pretty sure it started out Indian territory.
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 1261 Indonesian Muslims massacred by Christians in the Maluku region of Indonesia, having been supplied with M-16 assault rifles, rocket launchers and funds by the Netherlands.
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Anybody got the figure of Christians and others killed in this area and other parts of Indonesia? I remember it being a big number.
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 598 Muslim, Mujahid prisoners being kept in small cages in Guantanamo Bay, after their beards were forcibly shaved, their hands and feet were bound and their eyes and ears were covered, in conditions where they are subject to malaria, heatstroke and other tropical diseases.
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That's what happens when we take you POW. If they hadn't been fighting their war of oppression, they'd be okay
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the deaths of the hearts of 1.2 billion Muslims Worldwide who are blind to the above, but awake to a few people killed on 11 September 2001.
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Yeah, and how many people live under the oppression of radical Muslims? How many girls with forced female circumsision? How many stonings of women for being raped? How many killed for not converting? Christ, these people make Christians, Jews, and moderate Muslims sick. Oh yeah, and Muslims in Kosovo held a ceramony there for 9-11. They thanked and praised the US for protecting them from ethnic cleansing and whatnot. Glad some people are grateful.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 1:35:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 1:52:59 PM EDT by TampaDave]
I will go along with the notion that this is not a war against Islam per se. Just once however, I would like to meet a Muslim of Arabic decent who can give me a simple answer to these three questions: 1. Do you condemn the 9/11 attacks? 2. Do you condemn attacks against innocent civilians in Israel? 3. Are you with us, or with bin Laden? I'm friends with a couple of Islamic Turks who are with us right down the line; however, I have yet to meet a person of Arabic decent who can give me a straight, no bull, pro-US answer to those three questions. Still waiting.....
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 1:39:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 121,237 Iraqi Muslim babies who have died in these last twelve months (World Heath Organisation statistics) as a direct result of American-imposed sanctions on Iraq, preventing critical child-medicines from reaching Iraqi hospitals. Three times as many Iraqi babies die every month as a result of these sanctions, than were killed in the 11 September 2001 attacks.
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I would have to lay the responsibility of this to Saddam. He has failed to meet the requirements the UN placed on him. And he spends more of what he has on weapons than food for his people.
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 31,202 Afghan Muslim civilians who have been brutally murdered since October 2001, by American warplanes indiscriminately bombing their villages, houses, mosques, hospitals and wedding parties. Ten times as many innocent Afghans have been killed by Americans than were killed in the 11 September 2001 attacks.
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I admit a "few" innocent civilians have died at the hands of US troops in this operation. However, I believe this number to be BS unless you wish to add in killing combatants, and retaliation by Afghanis against their own. The actual number of innocent civilians killed BY ACCIDENT by US troops is probably less than 1% of this number. Additionally, intent is important. We do not TARGET innocent civilians. And I would place any responsibility of this operation being needed at all, and the FEW innocents that have died, at the feet of Osama and the Taliban.
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 6084 Indian Muslims killed and burnt in cold-blooded killing orgies organised by the Indian Government in Gujarat, during the last twelve months.
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Pardon me for pointing out this type of thing is going both ways in India. BTW, this has NOTHING to do with the USA.
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 5078 Chechen Muslim civilians who have been killed by Russian aerial bombing during the last twelve months, having been given a green light by the American 'War on Terror'.
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Chechnya is not a US issue. Why are we supposed to be responsible for this? BS.
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 3039 Palestinian Muslims who have been murdered by Americans (via weapons held in the hands of Israeli soldiers) since September 2001.
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The terrorism starts from the Moslems towards Israel. I don't blame them a whit if they fire into Palestine. But again, this is NOT the USA. BS.
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 2170 Uzbek Muslims who have been taken away from their homes by the American-backed Karimov Government in the middle of the night, never to be seen again. On this day, we remember the 1473 Chinese Muslims who have been executed in public after having been forced to drink alcohol and the flesh of swine, in the East Turkestan (Muslim) region of China. On this day, we remember the 1399 Kashmiri Muslims murdered and the 852 gang-rapes carried out by Hindu and Sikh soldiers in Occupied Kashmir. On this day, we remember the 1261 Indonesian Muslims massacred by Christians in the Maluku region of Indonesia, having been supplied with M-16 assault rifles, rocket launchers and funds by the Netherlands.
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None of this is the USA.
Originally Posted By Matrix: On this day, we remember the 598 Muslim, Mujahid prisoners being kept in small cages in Guantanamo Bay, after their beards were forcibly shaved, their hands and feet were bound and their eyes and ears were covered, in conditions where they are subject to malaria, heatstroke and other tropical diseases.
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What a crock of shit. These POWs are being treated better than they deserve. If the conditions are so bad, why have NONE died from malaria or heatstroke? This entire litany is pure BS. Most of it is either outside of the purview and control of the US, or entirely brought on by prior actions of Moslem radicals. The difference is, the US has only reacted to atrocities. And it has never TARGETED civilians. This is spin at it's worst. Take data out of context and lump it together and call it a trend.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 1:49:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CLP:
On this day, we remember the 598 Muslim, Mujahid prisoners being kept in small cages in Guantanamo Bay, after their beards were forcibly shaved, their hands and feet were bound and their eyes and ears were covered, in conditions where they are subject to malaria, heatstroke and other tropical diseases.
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Including the above in a list of perceived grievances cheapens and discredits the rest. First, because the "suffering" of the detainees has been exaggerated beyond absurdity. Their living conditions are barely worse than the soldiers guarding them. Second, and more troubling, it articulates actual [i]solidarity[/i] with detainees, men who were detained not simply because they are Muslims, but because they were [b]captured enemy combatants whose sympathies lied with the Taliban and Al Qaeda.[/b] Matrix, I don't disagree with everything you say. But you stepped in it here.
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The post is an article reproduced here in its entirety. I did not edit it, as some believe I present only what I wish. I typically post a url when one is available & pull out paragraphs/sentences that I think are pertinent. I wholeheartedly agree that the final lines cheapen the article...in no way do I identify with those few, final, sentiments. P presented the article since 9divdoc is looking for the truth...the truth happens to have another side to the story typically. Those that attacked America have what’s coming to them. I have always maintained that a surgical strike is necessary against those that attacked America...not an entire religion & its followers.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 1:58:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Spade: ...
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As I said, the truth has more than one side to it. I am not blind to the atrocities caused by all sides, including the Muslims.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 2:04:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TampaDave: I will go along with the notion that this is not a war against Islam per se. Just once however, I would like to meet a Muslim of Arabic decent who can give me a simple answer to these three questions: 1. Do you condemn the 9/11 attacks?
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Wholeheartedly & in the strongest terms possible.
2. Do you condemn attacks against innocent civilians in Israel?
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Wholeheartedly & in the strongest terms possible...against innocents, anywhere of any religion.
3. Are you with us, or with bin Laden?
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I'm an American. I would gladly put a bullet in Bin Laden myself since he admitted to the atrocities.
I'm friends with a couple of Islamic Turks who are with us right down the line; however, I have yet to meet a person of Arabic decent who can give me a straight, no bull, pro-US answer to those three questions. Still waiting.....
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However, I am not a Muslim of Arabic descent...so my answers may not hold much weight for you.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 2:09:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 2:10:38 PM EDT by ELEFTARIA]
On this day, we remember the 598 Muslim, Mujahid prisoners being kept in small cages in Guantanamo Bay, after their beards were forcibly shaved, their hands and feet were bound and their eyes and ears were covered, in conditions where they are subject to malaria, heatstroke and other tropical diseases. [/quote] [b]ask DANNY PEARL how the detainees are treated[/b]
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 2:10:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PaoloAR15: "...to a few people killed on 11 September 2001". This statement says all about them...
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And about Matrix for posting it. It just gets worse and worse for him. That he even goes to sites like that speaks volumes.
Originally Posted By redpine: the post by matrix proves the truth of the post by 9divdoc....time for another Charles Martel!
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Originally Posted By CLP: Matrix, I don't disagree with everything you say. But you stepped in it here.
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A not uncommon occurence for matrix. Figuratively, walking around blind without a cane when making your arguements will do that.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 2:18:01 PM EDT
Based on the FACT that muslims feel all of the infidels, read non-muslims, should die I feel the above numbers are merely a good start. Just curious is there a part in the koran that preaches love for their fellow man that does not have the same belief? It would not appear so. [beer]
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 2:18:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jimmybcool: I would have to lay the responsibility of this to Saddam. He has failed to meet the requirements the UN placed on him. And he spends more of what he has on weapons than food for his people.
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I agree with you, Saddam Insane must go. And we should have finished the job on that dictator years ago.
I admit a "few" innocent civilians have died at the hands of US troops in this operation. However, I believe this number to be BS unless you wish to add in killing combatants, and retaliation by Afghanis against their own. The actual number of innocent civilians killed BY ACCIDENT by US troops is probably less than 1% of this number. Additionally, intent is important. We do not TARGET innocent civilians. And I would place any responsibility of this operation being needed at all, and the FEW innocents that have died, at the feet of Osama and the Taliban.
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I don't know where the author of the article came up with the figures. The article was presented not to quibble about exact figures but to illustrate that their Truth differs from ours & that this is the real problem behind the attacks. Ignoring how & why they feel the way they do is dangerous for both sides & will, as Garandman indicated, continue the bloodshed.
Pardon me for pointing out this type of thing is going both ways in India. BTW, this has NOTHING to do with the USA.
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I am not the author...& have already stated why I presented this article.
The terrorism starts from the Moslems towards Israel. I don't blame them a whit if they fire into Palestine. But again, this is NOT the USA. BS.
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And herein lies the rub. Who started it & why? All sides differ in their opinion on this & as the article I linked above shows, the Arabs are furious with the US for supporting Israel.
None of this is the USA.
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Yes...but try explaining that to the authors, those in the ME who hate us, etc.
This is spin at it's worst. Take data out of context and lump it together and call it a trend.
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Out of context? You mean like all those verses from the Quran that so many have posted here as if they were Quranic scholars & then claim whatever about a religion they know little about? I've explained why I posted the article....interpret it as you will.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 2:19:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matrix: The post is an article reproduced here in its entirety. I did not edit it, as some believe I present only what I wish. I typically post a url when one is available & pull out paragraphs/sentences that I think are pertinent.
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Ok. I didn't think that they were your words, anyway.
I wholeheartedly agree that the final lines cheapen the article...in no way do I identify with those few, final, sentiments.
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I didn't really assume that. I'm familiar with your position on the current conflict. That bit about the detainees (and the Iraq sanctions as well) just peg the BS detector, and therefore invites a sh*tstorm in return. It doesn't help the cause of dialog, if that is the ostensible purpose.
Those that attacked America have what’s coming to them. I have always maintained that a surgical strike is necessary against those that attacked America...not an entire religion & its followers.
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Good to hear. I don't think the USA would ever contemplate anything [i]but[/i] a specific strike. I am not particularly swayed, myself, by "Nuke 'em"- style appeals.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 2:27:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matrix: However, I am not a Muslim of Arabic descent...so my answers may not hold much weight for you.
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Actually, your answers means a lot on two fronts. First, it does drive home the point that this is not a war against Islam itself. The more people who come forward to condemn the extremists, the more clear that point will become over time. The second important point is that people should get off your back. I will go back and read your posts more carefully. Thank you. David
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 2:29:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shooter69: And about Matrix for posting it. It just gets worse and worse for him. That he even goes to sites like that speaks volumes.
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Since when did it become a crime to seek the truth? What is the problem with visiting the other side to see what they are saying & how they are thinking? How do you expect to understand them if you can't even read what they are saying? Is your fear that great that you can't even acknowledge their opinion & point of contention?
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 2:34:51 PM EDT
I have come to the inescapable conclusion that the overwhelming number of muslims worldwide are bigots, far beyond the occasional american yahoo; viewing everything from a muslim/non-muslim perspective. If we had the same myopic obsessions they do, matrix wouldn't even be living here!
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 2:44:28 PM EDT
I find it odd that people actually believe WE should change our ways to prevent another attack... If we just give up our support for Israel If we just pull out of the Middle East If we just give up our cars and ride mass transit If we... then they won't hate us so much Sorry, but that philosophy is just WRONG! You don't let terrorists dictate how you live. If you do, THEY WIN! Then, whenever someone doesn't like you, they'll just use terrorisim untill you kowtow... Sorry, but we shouldn't change A THING outside of security and defense... Appeasement DOES NOT WORK (See Hitler), and the only way to solve the problem is to fight untill we win.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 3:25:25 PM EDT
It's going to be difficult for Americans to give up on Israel. Most Americans see supporting Israel as both a strategic and a moral imperative. Strategically, it's one of the few reliable pro-US democracies in the area. A lot of Americans feel a moral obligation to Israel. Keep in mind that Britain in particular and the rest of the world in general supported Jewish immigration to Israel as a way to make things whole following the holocaust. Not just as a solution to the refugee problem; I think the world wanted to be sure they would never see another attempt at genocide against the Jews. There are a lot of Jews in America; those of us who aren't Jewish have lots of friends who are Jewish, and there is a lot of sympathy for the cause. On the other hand, there is very little sympathy for the Palestinian Arabs. Granted, most Americans really don't know the recent history of the middle east. We all learned in Sunday school that the Jews owned that part of the world from about 3000 BC up until the time of Christ. Most aren't aware of the Roman's vicious genocidal attack on the Jewish people right after the death of Christ, and even fewer know how the Muslims gained control over the region by armed invasion. Or how they lost it to the Ottomans. Or how the British and the Arabs won it back during WWI. How the league of nations screwed the Arabs over after WWI. How the British signed on to the idea of Zionism in the 30's, offering and encouraging legal immigration to Jews world wide. How the UN finally had to partition Palestine to kep the Arabs and Jews from killing each other. Americans basically have no idea what went on in that part of the world between 33AD and 1947AD. All that notwithstanding, near as I can tell, the gist of the Palestinian argument is that it is OK for Arabs to occupy "Palestine" but not Jews. I must not get it. Meanwhile, I don't think I can forgive those people for dancing in the streets on 9/11. So I suppose I'm with Israel. Always have been.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 3:26:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shooter69: I have come to the inescapable conclusion that the overwhelming number of muslims worldwide are bigots, far beyond the occasional american yahoo; viewing everything from a muslim/non-muslim perspective. If we had the same myopic obsessions they do, matrix wouldn't even be living here!
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In truth, I have never viewed the world from a Muslim/Non-Muslim perspective until some people on this board began calling for the total elimination of all Muslims & Islam everywhere. Just answer the question. Since when has it become Un-American to read other people's viewpoints on a matter? Why is it a problem to present their view of the truth?
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 3:31:19 PM EDT
I am not asking anyone to change their views on Israel or to give up anything that is American. I am saying that we should at least hear what their side of the story is & why they hate us...the Israeli situation is at the heart of their hatred for the USA. IMO.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 3:45:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matrix: In truth, I have never viewed the world from a Muslim/Non-Muslim perspective until some people on this board began calling for the total elimination of all Muslims & Islam everywhere.
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There you go again, making it all about you. But it's not really about matrix, the americanised, tolerant muslim, is it.
Just answer the question. Since when has it become Un-American to read other people's viewpoints on a matter? Why is it a problem to present their view of the truth?
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You know what? I think that deep down you actually believe all their claims. I have read it, and it is frankly no different than what you would find on a KKK website, listing all of their real and imagined injustices, the people that have done them wrong. Somehow I don't think that you or other minorities would really care about their viewpoints, now would you.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 3:47:08 PM EDT
Matrix, you are exactly right. I know you aren't advocating propoganda. I feel it would be beneficial for people to study the history of the region. Might not change their mind, but at least they wouldnt be making their minds up out of ignorance. That goes for both sides. How many of those people on "the street" really understand what America is really all about?
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 5:23:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matrix: I am not asking anyone to change their views on Israel or to give up anything that is American. I am saying that we should at least hear what their side of the story is & why they hate us...the Israeli situation is at the heart of their hatred for the USA. IMO.
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Matrix, my comment was not directed specifically at you. I was thinking of the general mood of some people (as reflected on the editorial page of my local paper yesterday, and here on this board by some habitual anti-Israeli/isolationist posters). I read 3 or 4 editorials yesterday calling for America to change (insert your item that liberals hate) instead of going to war, as this would 'solve' the terror problem... I know that the Israeli issue has become the fixating-point of Arab anti-Americanisim. I also know that we can't let external forces dicate our way of life: we must either lead or die trying.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 6:08:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 6:11:08 PM EDT by Matrix]
Originally Posted By shooter69:
Just answer the question. Since when has it become Un-American to read other people's viewpoints on a matter? Why is it a problem to present their view of the truth?
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You know what? I think that deep down you actually believe all their claims. I have read it, and it is frankly no different than what you would find on a KKK website, listing all of their real and imagined injustices, the people that have done them wrong. Somehow I don't think that you or other minorities would really care about their viewpoints, now would you.
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Deep down I believe all their claims but I don't really care about their viewpoints? Which is it? And you still have not answered my question. Frankly, it doesn't matter if I/we believe them or not. THEY believe it & THAT is the point behind all this suffering. Interestingly, many here have claimed (including you I think) that the KKK does not represent Christianity...you're now saying that IslamOnline is an extremist site similar to the KKK?
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 6:19:06 PM EDT
Matrix, I understood what you posted. I was taking issue with the ARTICLE. And I think the article is pure spin and inaccurate. I believe it totally out of context and a mixture of lies and half truths. In fact, probably the greatest killer of Muslems the last 20 years sits in Bahgdad today. between starting wars with Iran (very bloody), Kuwait (very bloody for his troops), and the losses within his own nation due to his uncaring rule, the number is huge. It amazes me that any Moslem would speak his name without spitting after. As to the US supporting Israel, well, another discussion another time.
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 6:21:33 PM EDT
Shooter69, 9divdoc, et al: Another terroristic article from Islam.ca, that oh so dangerous website that just speaks volumes about anyone who would visit it....the horror, the horror.... [b]"[/b]Attacks against Islam and Muslims are unfounded Friday, September 13, 2002 by Fedwa Wazwaz Although Muslims in the United States and around the world have repeatedly condemned the attacks on Sept. 11, we stand falsely accused by nationally known commentators and influential religious leaders of remaining silent. Sadly, one year after the attacks, we are forced to prove that we condemned 9-11 to silence these voices, which are inciting hatred against our community. As validation for what I am saying, consider what was said last weekend at the 39th annual convention of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) in Washington D.C., where Muslim scholars analyzed September 11 terrorist attacks in light of Islamic teachings. The convention commenced Friday afternoon with a prayer for the victims of Sept. 11. Speakers went on to condemn the terrorist attacks before a large Muslim audience of 40,000, myself included. This was hardly an exception from remarks of the last year. [b]An incomplete document compiling condemnations of the attacks and condolences to the American people by Muslim leaders has reached 41 pages and is growing as I write.[/b] For example, in the New York Times in the aftermath of the attacks, Ingrid Mattson, a professor of Islamic studies and Muslim-Christian relations at Hartford Seminary and the new president of ISNA, explained to America that "Islamic law is very clear: terrorism is not permitted. Even in a legitimate war - even if Osama bin Laden were a legitimate head of state, which he's not - you're not permitted to indiscriminately kill civilians, just to create terror in the general population." Last Sept. 15, Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, proclaimed that "Hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts." For many Americans--and for me particularly as a Palestinian American-one of the most disturbing images was the celebration of a few Palestinian youths after the tragedy. This image has been played over and over again in an inciteful manner on CNN and FOX, and mentioned by many nationally known commentators. This was to reinforce the myth that somehow Arabs and Muslims are gloating at American loss of life and pain. This one image became a tool to drown out the condemnations and condolences by every Palestinian leader and organization, student associations, municipalities, mosques and churches etc. Students here and abroad held vigils, moments of silence and even blood drives. The mainstream media, however, largely ignored these actions. Yet, despite these forces who seek to silence and marginalize the Muslim American community, Muslims will continue to persevere in their attempts to build bridges of understanding and find common ground with other faith communities. The final -- and perhaps the most important -- lecture delivered at the Islamic Society convention concerned Muslim/non-Muslim relations. Dr. Jamal Badawi, a prominent Muslim scholar on Christian-Muslim relations, discussed the challenges posed by some commentators and religious leaders against the Quran and Islam. Islam is NOT an "evil wicked religion," as evangelical leader Franklin Graham has claimed. The word Islam is derived from the root word "silm," which means submission and peace. Islam means peace and is achieved through submission to God. Badawi explained that Islam does not divide the world into believers and infidels. God addresses people, "O mankind" over 200 times in the Quran and "O children of Adam," many times. The term for Jews and Christians is not infidel, but "Ahlil Kitab," or people of the book. Badawi added, "the basic principle in dealing with non-Muslims is 'birr'." There is no good definition of the word birr in English; however, it can be most closely translated to mean honor, compassion and kindness. God uses the same word "birr" when advising Muslims on how to deal with their parents. Furthermore, the Qur'an clearly states there is "no compulsion in religion." Finally, Badawi touched upon the word "jihad," which means struggle, but is often mistranslated as "holy war." Jihad has many forms, from the spiritual struggle against the self to the physical struggle against aggressors, whether Muslims or non-Muslims. Badawi emphasized, "This [physical struggle against aggressors] is not a holy war. It is the lesser of two evils. There is nothing holy about destruction, killing or suffering." As we commemorate the one year anniversary of the attacks on our nation and we work on solutions to make America secure, we must realize the importance of understanding Islam and Muslims to ensure that our policies and solutions for security are within the spirit of justice and peace, not revenge and hatred. (Ms. Fedwa Wazwaz, of Crystal, Minnesota, is Communications Director of the Islamic Resource Group and a columnist with the Independent Writers Syndicate).[b]"[/b]
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 6:31:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jimmybcool: Matrix, I understood what you posted. I was taking issue with the ARTICLE. And I think the article is pure spin and inaccurate. I believe it totally out of context and a mixture of lies and half truths.
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It may very well be & probably is...but that is the viewpoint they are advocating.
In fact, probably the greatest killer of Muslems the last 20 years sits in Bahgdad today. between starting wars with Iran (very bloody), Kuwait (very bloody for his troops), and the losses within his own nation due to his uncaring rule, the number is huge. It amazes me that any Moslem would speak his name without spitting after.
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Spit, spit, triple spit...I called him Saddam [b]Insane[/b] for a reason! He is a tyrant like Hitler or Stalin & we (America) should take the necessary steps to dispose of him...he is another that I would GLADLY put a bullet in...
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 8:08:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 9:49:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 9:54:11 PM EDT by Matrix]
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: A "just" manner? You mean "just" in the Islamic, glory to Allah, take over the world by the tongue or by the sword, exterminate the Zionists manner? Like that?
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I placed it within quotes with the understanding that their version of "just" is very different from ours. The definition you present is one that is identifiable to them. For me it means in a manner that would be beneficial to both sides...if such a thing is even possible when discussing the Middle East.
Guess what: None of these al quaeda bastards had a damned thing to say about Israel until well after 09.11.01. They want the corrupt, decadent House of Saud gone and an Islamist pan-Arab state in charge of the holy sites of Islam under sharia law. They could give two shits about the "Palestinians," the descendants of people who turned their backs on the opportunity for full partnership as citizens of Israel and now want it all.
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I acknowledge your point...Wahhabism is an intolerant sect of Islam that does not even tolerate other sects of Islam. Al-Queda conducted the attacks upon the USA for political & religious reasons...they may not care about Israel but the various articles I have read thus far, on various Islamic sites, indicate a strong aversion to the Israelis in the Middle East...& a strong aversion to the USA for its support of Israel.
[url]http://islamonline.net/english/News/2002-09/12/article23.shtml[/url] What is this? I'm not clicking any link to "islamonline." That's just not my thing, like "homosonline" or "antigunnersonline."
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Article entitled "September 11 , 2002 Finds Arabs Sympathetic But Furious at U.S. Pro-Israel Policies." I'll post it for you if you wish.
I'm the guy you think should be in the KKK, remember? The guy who gets hate emails from fucks like Mauser88 and his inbred friends calling my wife a mud person. Why would I want to expand my horizons to "islamonline?"
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[b]I sincerely apologize for my past outbursts...I have reflected on many things I have posted & regret this comment I made to you. [/b] It is inappropriate on my part to have made that statement, in anger, & it is also inappropriate for you to be threatened by anyone via email (or any other avenue)...let alone someone who would make negative statements regarding your wife. My apologies to you that you have had to read such statements about your loved ones. Thanks for your response.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 5:22:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2002 5:24:17 AM EDT by shamayim]
While not central to the main thread of this line, I do feel it necessary to take issue with a couple of TampaDaves statements in his post. While it is true that the Balfour Declaration, issued during WW1, expressed support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine, their behaviors in the post war, after they got the Mandate to sdminister the holy land, were exactly counter to the declaration. They did every damn thing they could to limit Jewish inflow. After WW2, they DID NOT open the land up to the survivors of the death camps. When they caught them trying to sneak in, the Brits shipped them off to camps on Cyprus. Re the main point of the thread, though; it's perfectly true that there are some predominently Muslim states that have no interest in attacking Western societies or values. Turkey is a prime example. The problem is that even the Turkeys of the world are under increasing attack from the fanatics of Islam. Look at Iran. The people, if allowed to, would be among our best friends in the region; but the country is being run by the extremists. This is the problem that the Turks may soon face. I wish I had a pat answer to solve these problems. I don't, but I do know this; militant Islam was stopped at the gates of Vienna some 225 years ago. We've forgotten how close it came to overrunning Western society. They haven't.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 8:32:18 AM EDT
Shamayim, Thank you for the correction. Sometimes it is difficult to separate facts from editorials, thus the benefit of discussing these issues in an open forum. There are two sides to the question. Unfortunately, the Arabs' choice of tactics -- including targeting the US -- makes it very difficult to give their side of the argument a fair shake.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 8:56:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72: Muslims kill themselves in order to achieve their goals. Its a shame there are that many martyrs to a worthless "god" and even more worthless religion. The bastardized beliefs of these pieces of shit don't mean crap to me, as long as we wipe their disease from the face of humanity and history. Lets all pray that the "gates of hell" open in the middle east. I hope we can blow mecca back to hell also. THEN maybe those fucking bastards will take notice that we aren't fucking around anymore. Matrix, all of your "dead muslims" can't hold a candle to one of our American's killed on 9/11. Fuck your people, they've done nothing for humanity recently. Murderers and rapists run rampant in the muslim societies as well, more so than anywhere else in the world. Go eat a BLT and think about your worthless religion.
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Sorry but most of this post echo's my feelings.
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