Posted: 2/4/2013 7:32:27 PM EDT
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Liberty needs to be well-armed. Application of that force can be debated, but hopefully being well-armed is something upon which we can all agree.
That being said, with a recent long thread discussing some controversial issues, I figured I should get some more information on Afghanistan and Iraq. I was in high school (wow, it's been a while) when all that started so I don't know much of the history behind it. I trust you guys a little more than a random google search. I really don't want this to turn into a thread arguing what was right and what was wrong as most people are probably set in their ways, but I figured it might be useful to learn a little history so I can make an informed opinion. If it gets to heated arguments, I would just like the thread to be locked before emotions flare too much. Thanks. ETA: Just to clarify, I am not here to start anything and I will not be participating in any discussion past this. I simply would like good pointers to information. |
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You've gotta be kidding me.   Actually, I'm not kidding at all. A lot of what I get from searching is just basic timelines with not much behind them. Maybe my searching skills are just horrible, but I really would like more information without it turning into a mud fight. If this thread turns into some some sort of argument thread, I will have no problem with it being locked. Yeah, I know, GD, not known for a lot of historical information, but I figured it might be worth a try. |
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Iraq 2009-2010 - I witnessed many an insurgent get blown to bits via predator feed from the CAOC (Combat Air Ops Center). Witnessed an insurgent being "correct" by an Apache gunship when he thought shooting his AK wouldn't piss it off. Assisted many a wounded warrior get the urgent care they needed by volunteering at the Theater Hospital in Balad. Attended far too many Fallen Warrior services, and knelt beside flag draped transfer cases as the fallen started their long journey home.
Long story short, it's shit, and be thankful you didn't have to be part of the shit. |
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Wadda ya wanna know? I guess I'm mostly interested in any point in the historical progression of events from the end of WW1 up to the current period. Trying to figure out how the western world got involved and why. From what I've read, the dissolution of the Ottoman empire at the end of WW1 seems to be kind of a starting point with the British taking over after the Ottomans. From there it seems to be shifting between Britain and Arabs. I can kind of see a little bit of a clean dividing point in the late 60s with the Ba'ath(sp?) party. After that, I'm really not sure how the western world got involved or where it all started. |
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Wadda ya wanna know? I guess I'm mostly interested in any point in the historical progression of events from the end of WW1 up to the current period. Trying to figure out how the western world got involved and why. From what I've read, the dissolution of the Ottoman empire at the end of WW1 seems to be kind of a starting point with the British taking over after the Ottomans. From there it seems to be shifting between Britain and Arabs. I can kind of see a little bit of a clean dividing point in the late 60s with the Ba'ath(sp?) party. After that, I'm really not sure how the western world got involved or where it all started. I know I'm new here but as a long time lurker I didn't think GD wrote history papers for free. A paper like that would run at least two or three PMAGs I'd think... 
But here's the snapshot: 1) Europeans colonized everywhere. 2) The Brits & French put some minority group in charge of the colony so that the minorities would be totally dependent on the Brits to not get killed. They then drew international borders in all sorts of shitty places to divide and conquer ethnic groups (Durand Line in AfPak = great example). Pretty decent strategy for a colonial overlord actually. 3) The Eurotrash eventually got sick of being awesome world powers and went home to enjoy socialism and decaying military powers under the US funded NATO umbrella. 4) The minority groups held on to power as ruthless dictators, until present day, when we get involved in the middle of... 5) Civil war across the Middle East as majority groups battle their old shitty minority-group dictators (Shiites vs. Sunni Saddam, Sunnis vs. Alawite Assad) and ethnic groups on both sides of arbitrary lines drawn by drunk British colonialists (Pashtus, Kurds) duke it out with everyone else, complicated by tribal based societies that still like blood feuds and raping goats. |
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Wadda ya wanna know? I guess I'm mostly interested in any point in the historical progression of events from the end of WW1 up to the current period. Trying to figure out how the western world got involved and why. From what I've read, the dissolution of the Ottoman empire at the end of WW1 seems to be kind of a starting point with the British taking over after the Ottomans. From there it seems to be shifting between Britain and Arabs. I can kind of see a little bit of a clean dividing point in the late 60s with the Ba'ath(sp?) party. After that, I'm really not sure how the western world got involved or where it all started. Iran elected a leader who nationalized Iranian oil. Britain didn't like that so they encouraged us to label Iran as a communist regime. We then proceeded to overthrow their government in 1953. Operation Ajax In the after action report of the CIA coup in 1953, the CIA warned about "possibilities of Blowback against the United States" Turned out the CIA was right and the Iranians didn't really like their govt being overthrown (wonder why?..) so in 1971, they had a revolution against the Shah of Iran and put in a government that was, and still is, violently Anti- American because of our involvement in the coup. This is why the US hostage crisis happened. In Iraq, Saddam was worried that the Iranian Revolution would spread to Iraq and that he would get overthrown. He went to war with Iran ( Iran - Iraq War ) to prevent the revolution from spreading to Iraq because he didn't want to get kicked out of power like the Shah. Unfortunately for Saddam, he began to lose the war. At that point the United States decided to help him by giving him weapons, Intel, money, military training and Diplomatic Support. The war went on and eventually ended in a stale mate, but Iraq incurred a lot of debt to countries like Kuwait and Kuwait refused to forgive the debt. Iraq than wanted OPEC to slow down production so that it could pay down the debt with higher oil revenues, however Kuwait wasn't concerned about the prices of oil and wanted to sell at a higher volume. This dispute along with many others sparked Iraq to invade Kuwait. Saddam remained a friend of ours right up to his invasion of Kuwait in the Summer of 1990. We were alarmed that he invaded Kuwait and were worried that he would go on and invade Saudi Arabia which has the largest reserves of oil in the Middle East. We stationed troops in Saudi Arabia to prevent an Invasion from Saddam. This pissed off Osama Bin Laden and a lot of radical Muslims who viewed Saudi Arabia as their Holy Land, and didn't want western troops there. Every Suicide terrorist campaign since 1980 has had, as its central objective, to compel the US to leave the Middle East. They don't hate us because we are rich and free, they hate us because of our military presence there as evident by the fact that 15 out of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. Our presence in the Middle East enables radical groups such as Al Qaeda to recruit easier. For every terrorist killed by a hellfire, 3 more rise up in vengeance. This is why a lot of "Crazy" libertarians don't want us to meddle there. Meanwhile, we are currently arming and helping rebels, many of which are Al Qaeda, in Syria and we just finished arming and helping Al Qaeda and other rebels in Libya. And Al Qaeda is thankful for our support.. (Al Qaeda Flag over Benghazi Courthouse in Libya) They are decent multi-taskers. When they are not overthrowing countries and establishing sharia law with our help, they are actively fighting us. Maybe we should stop helping them and leave?? No... that's crazy talk. |
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Do you like to read?
If you want an education the you need to read SEVERAL books on the beginning of the war on terror, subsequent operations, and the lead up to the war in Iraq. Not to mention, there are hundreds of other articles that discuss less well known operations that occured in the Philippines, Europe, eastern Asia, and South America. Some of us have been at war for 12 years others a little less so if we come off as a bit "assholish" cause an American wasn't paying attention while we were getting shot at, getting shot, blown up, or what have you then... well... there it is. My question to you OP, in addition to the first line in this post, is where do you want to start at? The VERY beginning of it all or just the cliff notes version? |
| Read the book Afghanistan by Martin Ewans. It will give you a play by play of the country's history from Alexander the Great to the 90s. Also read, The Bear Went Over the Mountain, which is about Soviet experiences there. You aren't going to learn a whole lot reading random shit on the internet, although several posters have provided decent overviews here. |
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Are you asking how we got involved in Afghanistan? Well there was this fucking guy. This fucking guys name was Osama Bin Laden. This fucking guy had lots of asshole goat fucking friends who were in this really exclusive club they called, "Al Qaeda." One day Al Qaeda was all like..."we've blown up so many things but no one is taking us serious! Most people have never even heard of us....no one gives a shit about parking garage bombs or embassies or barracks anymore." Anyway, these goat fuckers....you know, the Al Qaeda ones? They craft this really elaborate plan to attack America using these planes. The attack happened on September 11, 2001 and you may not have heard but we lost 3,000 Americans that day. ANYWAY, long story short, we went over there and monkey stomped the fuck out them for a decade or so. I understand that this type of information is hard to find so I'm happy to help you fill in the blanks.
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I understand that this type of information is hard to find so I'm happy to help you fill in the blanks. There's no need to be hostile. I know all that basic information. I don't know much more because I was busy with school when all that stuff began. I was still interested back then, but I didn't have time to read much into it. Sorry for offending you by asking a question. Quoted:
Read the book Afghanistan by Martin Ewans. It will give you a play by play of the country's history from Alexander the Great to the 90s. Also read, The Bear Went Over the Mountain, which is about Soviet experiences there. You aren't going to learn a whole lot reading random shit on the internet, although several posters have provided decent overviews here. Thanks. Looks interesting. I'll probably get it. I'm kind of an amateur history nerd. Quoted:
Do you like to read? If you want an education the you need to read SEVERAL books on the beginning of the war on terror, subsequent operations, and the lead up to the war in Iraq. Not to mention, there are hundreds of other articles that discuss less well known operations that occured in the Philippines, Europe, eastern Asia, and South America. Some of us have been at war for 12 years others a little less so if we come off as a bit "assholish" cause an American wasn't paying attention while we were getting shot at, getting shot, blown up, or what have you then... well... there it is. My question to you OP, in addition to the first line in this post, is where do you want to start at? The VERY beginning of it all or just the cliff notes version? Overviews with some longer sources backing up bullet points are good, but I also definitely like to read so anything that's more than just standard 5:00 news is great. Most of my books are histories and this is a period of history I don't know much about. Sorry if I offend anyone by not knowing all the facts and asking questions. Asking questions seems a little better than a lot of United States citizens who just hear blurbs on their preferred news station and that's that. I know that a lot of people's lives are over or changed forever and that's why I want to know more about it. When lives are lost it's important to know why. ETA: Thanks everyone for personal anecdotes and the more historical overviews. Both the big picture and the little things are important. |
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That's a little . What's it from?
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Its Always Sunny, a historical documentary of a contemporary pub in Philadelphia. |
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Its Always Sunny, a historical documentary of a contemporary pub in Philadelphia. They also provided an excellent account of the cracking of the Liberty Bell, and colonist/British relations during the period leading up to the American Revolution. |
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Afghanistan sucks, does that help? Iraq sucks too. If you really want to know what its like. Go. I went in on the intial push, in 03. For second hand as close as your gonna get reading, I would suggest "Marines in the Garden of Eden" its about Task force tarawa, and as far as I read is pretty legit. To the point where I didnt finish it because I was there for most of it. You can also read/watch "Generation kill" it will give you a pretty good idea of how war goes from "Holy shit I'm Bored" to "These officers are fucked" to "Holy shit this sucks" and back to "Holy shit I'm bored" again, Also tightly interwoven with the actions of Task Force Tarawa. Again to the point of me actually remembering some of the stuff covered. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Afghanistan sucks, does that help? Iraq sucks too. If you really want to know what its like. Go. I went in on the intial push, in 03. For second hand as close as your gonna get reading, I would suggest "Marines in the Garden of Eden" its about Task force tarawa, and as far as I read is pretty legit. To the point where I didnt finish it because I was there for most of it. You can also read/watch "Generation kill" it will give you a pretty good idea of how war goes from "Holy shit I'm Bored" to "These officers are fucked" to "Holy shit this sucks" and back to "Holy shit I'm bored" again, Also tightly interwoven with the actions of Task Force Tarawa. Again to the point of me actually remembering some of the stuff covered. I don't know why, but I hated Generation kill. I do know that Recon unit bailed on our Bn when we were supposed to do a RIP someplace they were holding. Showed up they were LONG gone. |
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Wadda ya wanna know? I guess I'm mostly interested in any point in the historical progression of events from the end of WW1 up to the current period. Trying to figure out how the western world got involved and why. From what I've read, the dissolution of the Ottoman empire at the end of WW1 seems to be kind of a starting point with the British taking over after the Ottomans. From there it seems to be shifting between Britain and Arabs. I can kind of see a little bit of a clean dividing point in the late 60s with the Ba'ath(sp?) party. After that, I'm really not sure how the western world got involved or where it all started. Iran elected a leader who nationalized Iranian oil. Britain didn't like that so they encouraged us to label Iran as a communist regime. We then proceeded to overthrow their government in 1953. Operation Ajax In the after action report of the CIA coup in 1953, the CIA warned about "possibilities of Blowback against the United States" Turned out the CIA was right and the Iranians didn't really like their govt being overthrown (wonder why?..) so in 1971, they had a revolution against the Shah of Iran and put in a government that was, and still is, violently Anti- American because of our involvement in the coup. This is why the US hostage crisis happened. In Iraq, Saddam was worried that the Iranian Revolution would spread to Iraq and that he would get overthrown. He went to war with Iran ( Iran - Iraq War ) to prevent the revolution from spreading to Iraq because he didn't want to get kicked out of power like the Shah. Unfortunately for Saddam, he began to lose the war. At that point the United States decided to help him by giving him weapons, Intel, money, military training and Diplomatic Support. The war went on and eventually ended in a stale mate, but Iraq incurred a lot of debt to countries like Kuwait and Kuwait refused to forgive the debt. Iraq than wanted OPEC to slow down production so that it could pay down the debt with higher oil revenues, however Kuwait wasn't concerned about the prices of oil and wanted to sell at a higher volume. This dispute along with many others sparked Iraq to invade Kuwait. Saddam remained a friend of ours right up to his invasion of Kuwait in the Summer of 1990. We were alarmed that he invaded Kuwait and were worried that he would go on and invade Saudi Arabia which has the largest reserves of oil in the Middle East. We stationed troops in Saudi Arabia to prevent an Invasion from Saddam. This pissed off Osama Bin Laden and a lot of radical Muslims who viewed Saudi Arabia as their Holy Land, and didn't want western troops there. Every Suicide terrorist campaign since 1980 has had, as its central objective, to compel the US to leave the Middle East. They don't hate us because we are rich and free, they hate us because of our military presence there as evident by the fact that 15 out of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. Our presence in the Middle East enables radical groups such as Al Qaeda to recruit easier. For every terrorist killed by a hellfire, 3 more rise up in vengeance. This is why a lot of "Crazy" libertarians don't want us to meddle there. Meanwhile, we are currently arming and helping rebels, many of which are Al Qaeda, in Syria and we just finished arming and helping Al Qaeda and other rebels in Libya. And Al Qaeda is thankful for our support.. (Al Qaeda Flag over Benghazi Courthouse in Libya) http://dailydish.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e2015436b9758a970c-250wi They are decent multi-taskers. When they are not overthrowing countries and establishing sharia law with our help, they are actively fighting us. Maybe we should stop helping them and leave?? No... that's crazy talk. Nice summary of the big picture. I disagree with Ron Paul on some things, but he is right about the Middle East - we shouldn't have been there, and we should leave it be. First reason is that we could not, and still can't, afford it financially. 
But yea, that's all just crazy talk. 
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Afghanistan sucks, does that help? Iraq sucks too. If you really want to know what its like. Go. I went in on the intial push, in 03. For second hand as close as your gonna get reading, I would suggest "Marines in the Garden of Eden" its about Task force tarawa, and as far as I read is pretty legit. To the point where I didnt finish it because I was there for most of it. You can also read/watch "Generation kill" it will give you a pretty good idea of how war goes from "Holy shit I'm Bored" to "These officers are fucked" to "Holy shit this sucks" and back to "Holy shit I'm bored" again, Also tightly interwoven with the actions of Task Force Tarawa. Again to the point of me actually remembering some of the stuff covered. I don't know why, but I hated Generation kill. I do know that Recon unit bailed on our Bn when we were supposed to do a RIP someplace they were holding. Showed up they were LONG gone. I suggested Generation Kill because there were some VERY good points made in the series, about how screwed up war is. Of which I remember happening while I was there. One of the conversations they had with thier higher ups was about the Iraqis sending out women and kids to the convoys for food etc. Then shooting RPGs and shit over them. I remember being told they were doing that shit, and When I asked the 1st Sgt about what we were supposed to do, His reply was "Devildog, you do what you have to do to come back, man woman or child. If your charged with war crimes, all you have to do is remember "I was in fear for my life and the lives of my marines." Another one I remember hearing about was the dude firing the smoke grenade at the ground as a warning to an approaching car. And the grenade bounced up and imbedded in the skull of an Iraqi civilian fleeing the city. We used to refer to it as "Murphys War" because everything that could have went wrong....did. |
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Liberty needs to be well-armed. Application of that force can be debated, but hopefully being well-armed is something upon which we can all agree. That being said, with a recent long thread discussing some controversial issues, I figured I should get some more information on Afghanistan and Iraq. I was in high school (wow, it's been a while) when all that started so I don't know much of the history behind it. I trust you guys a little more than a random google search. I really don't want this to turn into a thread arguing what was right and what was wrong as most people are probably set in their ways, but I figured it might be useful to learn a little history so I can make an informed opinion. If it gets to heated arguments, I would just like the thread to be locked before emotions flare too much. Thanks. ETA: Just to clarify, I am not here to start anything and I will not be participating in any discussion past this. I simply would like good pointers to information. Participation is sorta inferred in a discussion you begin. Otherwise.. what's the point? You simply expect to sit back and gather data? If you want information, go to class and pay attention or go to the library and check out books on the subject. Read. Books. Not Google or Wikipedia. |
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Overviews with some longer sources backing up bullet points are good, but I also definitely like to read so anything that's more than just standard 5:00 news is great. Most of my books are histories and this is a period of history I don't know much about. Sorry if I offend anyone by not knowing all the facts and asking questions. Asking questions seems a little better than a lot of United States citizens who just hear blurbs on their preferred news station and that's that. I know that a lot of people's lives are over or changed forever and that's why I want to know more about it. When lives are lost it's important to know why. jesus, kid. You're not offending anyone by asking questions. You're offending people by being lazy. Do you seriously expect general discussion to type your history homework for you? Ask about current information, plenty of folks with experience here. Asking about WWI to present, yeah we may have some history buffs around. A bulletized presentation with sources? Now you're being fucking lazy.
and no, don't take this as "this is an approved list of questions" type post. It's just kind of the way it is. Feel free to ask what you want, you'll notice some of the push back you are getting regarding your questions. What is your motive here? For a better history on Afghanistan, I'd recommend hopping on Amazon.com. Afghanistan by Stephen Tanner is a good overview. Ghost Wars by Steve Coll is good overview of the 20ish years prior to 2001. Jawbreaker covers some stuff right after 2001. War and The Outpost will cover the last 5ish years. I have read all those but The Outpost. You should be able to find PDF copies of Lester Grau's books via google as well. Some good Kipling poems may get you Pre-WWI The Afghan Wars by Archibald Forbes will also get you some good pre-WWI info. Some of the above are free with kindle or via PDF. |
Basically what happened is this:
There, that should hold you over for another 11 or 12 years. Stop back by for an update in a decade and I'll tell you what you missed. |
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Quoted: HERE, FUCK NUGGET. WORLD WAR ONE: http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs46/i/2009/187/3/0/World_War_One__Simple_Version_by_AngusMcLeod.jpg WORLD WAR TWO: http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs22/i/2008/002/f/d/World_War_Two__Simple_Version_by_AngusMcLeod.jpg COLD WAR: http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/349/c/5/cold_war__simple_version_by_angusmcleod-d34xw7j.jpg well, that about got that outta the way well done  OP - here's some books.... have fun  |
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Iraq 2009-2010 - I witnessed many an insurgent get blown to bits via predator feed from the CAOC (Combat Air Ops Center). . CAOC was a fun place. CAOC is the center from which all evil originates. It only served to further reinforce my hatred for the frenchies. I'm right next to Waldo. 
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Quoted: Quoted: I understand that this type of information is hard to find so I'm happy to help you fill in the blanks. There's no need to be hostile. I know all that basic information. I don't know much more because I was busy with school when all that stuff began. I was still interested back then, but I didn't have time to read much into it. Sorry for offending you by asking a question. Quoted: Read the book Afghanistan by Martin Ewans. It will give you a play by play of the country's history from Alexander the Great to the 90s. Also read, The Bear Went Over the Mountain, which is about Soviet experiences there. You aren't going to learn a whole lot reading random shit on the internet, although several posters have provided decent overviews here. Thanks. Looks interesting. I'll probably get it. I'm kind of an amateur history nerd. Quoted: Do you like to read? If you want an education the you need to read SEVERAL books on the beginning of the war on terror, subsequent operations, and the lead up to the war in Iraq. Not to mention, there are hundreds of other articles that discuss less well known operations that occured in the Philippines, Europe, eastern Asia, and South America. Some of us have been at war for 12 years others a little less so if we come off as a bit "assholish" cause an American wasn't paying attention while we were getting shot at, getting shot, blown up, or what have you then... well... there it is. My question to you OP, in addition to the first line in this post, is where do you want to start at? The VERY beginning of it all or just the cliff notes version? Overviews with some longer sources backing up bullet points are good, but I also definitely like to read so anything that's more than just standard 5:00 news is great. Most of my books are histories and this is a period of history I don't know much about. Sorry if I offend anyone by not knowing all the facts and asking questions. Asking questions seems a little better than a lot of United States citizens who just hear blurbs on their preferred news station and that's that. I know that a lot of people's lives are over or changed forever and that's why I want to know more about it. When lives are lost it's important to know why. ETA: Thanks everyone for personal anecdotes and the more historical overviews. Both the big picture and the little things are important. whats your definition of "not participating in the discussion"  |