Original charges that were available didn't list the actual length, only that it was an illegal short shotgun. ATF lab reports are not available that I can find. Randy testified that he was asked to shorten the barrels of two shotguns to between 12-14", but that he refused and cut them to 18" which is the legal minimum. If I remember correctly, it was a single pipe H&R 12ga he sold to the informant.



Getting harder to find some of the stuff that was online a decade ago.





 

I didn't realize U.S. military trained snipers, using "high powered" sniper rifles from hundreds of yards out in concealed positions were such bad shots. I'd imagine a sniper trying to hit a fast moving target might miss. Or a sniper under enemy fire might not have the time to set-up his shot. Perhaps our military sniper schools are simply producing poorly trained shooters and Hariouchi is simply a byproduct of that inadequate training.

To clarify:

I believe we are created equal. White, Black, Asian, doesn't matter. It is our actions that separate us. I've been screwed by way more white people than I ever have any other race.

Now, re: the government - they trumped up something to take Weaver (by the accounts I've read, a peaceful separatist (we are free to be separatists and the Libertarian in me says he's free to do what he did)) down. They harangued/entrapped him to do something illegal, then massively - spectacularly - mishandled the result. His poor wife and son had to pay the price for the government's stupidity.

In short: It's America, you should be free to be a racist even though I'm not one. Just keep that crap away from me. Your wife and son should not be murdered for a trumped up shotgun barrel charge. And if it does happen, there should be repercussions for the government.

I hope that clears up my position. Any questions, please ask.

Wasn't there also some "creative" measuring going on of said shotgun to make it "too short"?
Also Weaver's refusal to turn informant.

Agree with his personal beliefs having nothing to do with the case. While I find it ignorant, he is free to be as racist as he wants, free country and all that (provided he isn't hurting anyone).
If he was black and had those beliefs, he would probably have found a nice career as a "reverend" or in congress.

ETA: Even more awesomer is the guy who called the shots in that clusterfuck is the Sheriff for life in my county. Joy....
Wanna guess what he thinks of gun control and the idea of confiscating firearms?

Yep.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19950921&slug=2142851

"Coming back from the cabin to the (hostage rescue team) base, Dick Rogers (head of the team) told me: `We targeted Vicki Weaver because the psychiatrist profiled her as the maternal head of the family who would kill her children rather than ever allow them to surrender,"' Gritz said. "There was no indication at that time, or any other time I was on the hill, that the shooting of Vicki Weaver was an accident."

I'm telling you, that baby Vicki was holding had a collapsing stock and a flash hider.

Fucked up story, no less.

IBTL

Shhhhh they'really on a roll

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Lots of mistakes by .gov at Ruby Ridge.

And plenty of OPSEC total-failure on the part of Weaver.

Should he have cut a barrel? No.

Should he have made the mistakes he made? No.

That being said, I have met agents who were there who have said that they have learned a lot from Ruby Ridge.

Shooting through a wall while leading a target violates basic common sense, but on-paper it was within the Rules of Engagement that a near-retirement Agent who had a desk job in sit-down-investigate-white-collar-crimes Salt Lake City had set.

Was Weaver completely-and-totally without fault? No. As I look at what he went through, he made many mistakes in dealing with others, being "entrapped" and in dealing with agents after he found out he was in trouble. At the very-least he is guilty of being stupid. But I don't hold him to hero status, even though I understand his pain.

Should Federal Agents have gone to prison for what they did? Probably. They got saved by a piece of paper, and the word of a saw-no-action-in-his-career supervisor out of Salt Lake City. The Federal Government made serious mistakes.

That being said, when I was in college, I worked at a grocery store. A girl (looked 14) came in to purchase cigarrettes. Of course I didn't sell them to her. Then she comes back, tries handing me $50. I get irrritated, say, "no." And ask her to leave. She comes back again, this time with a guy who appears to be old enough to buy cigarrettes, and he tries buying them with her standing next to him. Something about him strikes me as odd, and some little bell rings in the back of my head. I tell them no. He really, really pushes the issue. Tries giving me another $50 "tip" tries talking me into it, then when that does not work, he tries threatening me. Called me all sorts of names, and was a complete douche.

All the while a bell is ringing in the back of my head. And she is standing right there with him.

When they leave, I locked my register, and follow them out. In the fire-lane near the door is a cop car with a couple Uniformed cops. I am 10 steps behind them when I hear one of the uniformed officers tell the two, "You need to try harder."

I lost my temper. Completely out of control. I told the officers that these two were trying to buy cigarettes, and the cops needed to arrest them. Then when I had lost my temper even more, I told the officer that they needed to arrest the two for entrapment, because I had denied selling them three times already. About the time I was probably heading for trouble, I remembered my job, and went inside to my register, and checked out people until I had time to talk with my manager. I am pretty sure he had already heard the cops' side of the story, because he said that it is their jobs to find out who is willing to sell to minors, and that he supports cops doing sting operations, and that if I ever got caught, I would have to pay the fine, and not the store...

I never heard a word about it after that. Not a peep.

There are many lessons to be learned from Ruby Ridge for LE. I think there were many approaches to the situation that could have resulted in no loss of life, and an opportunity for Weaver to have legal due process.

There are many lessons for gun owners as well. Don't cut barrels. Use OPSEC. Don't be stupid. Should Weavers wife have been shot because he made a mistake? No, of course not. But on the same token, when you have holed up in a house, you are running out of food, you are shooting back at Federal Agents, your choices start to become limited in outcomes. Even if it is no fault of yours. Why not let the wife and child go? Why not let them walk to the Agents? At that point, they had committed no crimes, why keep them in the house? Why not choose the outcome of presenting his case to a jury of his peers, in an effort to keep his wife and children safe. We know that the Federal Agenst there did not care about his wife and kids. They ended up shooting his wife and kid. Why didn't Weaver let them walk, get to safety, then present his case to a jury of his peers. Yeah, the Federal Agents made a serious mistake. But as a husband and father, I judge his choices after he learned he was in trouble against him, especially considering that in hindsight, his wife and kid got shot and in the end a jury in Idaho let him walk in the end. He ended up a free man, with a pile of cash and a dead wife and child.

When you are holed up in a house with no food and no water, and agents with guns pointed back at you, your choices start to become limited. That was no place for a family. If he wanted to make a stand against guns pointed back at him, that is fine... But no way should a responsible gun owner put his family in that kind of situation... Innocent of not (he ended up innocent) I believe he made a mistake by involving his family. That being said, the greatest mistake was made by a desk-jockey "supervisor" who allowed a Fed to shoot through a wall where he "thought" Weaver was, and ended up shooting two completely-innocent people.

With all that being said, exercise OPSEC. Follow the law. Be mindful of communicating conservative ideals with dignity and respect. Weaver had sent letters that for all intents and purposes were "threatening" to those in positions of decision making regarding him and his family. If you have kids who rely on you for their well-being, don't go and kick hornets nests. And... Know your target, and what is behind it, and the desk-jockey lazy agent who allowed an agent to kill a woman holding a child should have gone to prison.

Weaver is not completely without-mistake in this situation. In hindsight, there were always choices and options that would not have ended with him (and his family) holed-up pointing guns at Feds with agents pointing guns back at him. As gun owners, and those who take conservative ideals seriously, there are many lessons we can learn, and mistakes we can avoid making from this situation.

And the Federal Government acted against and killed innocents. The Government issued an Executive Order to kill my ancestors in Missouri, and in my own life, I experienced a "Local Government" effort to entrap me into committing a "crime." The government is not our friend. We need to vote, we need to act, and we need to write letters so the government does not kill (or lock-up) any more people in the name of denying due process.

You mean the part of the story where in order to "protect" all the children and women from the cult leader, they open fire and BBQ them instead?

"The paramilitary team then switched to psychological warfare. As The Washington Times’ Jerry Seper reported, “Court records show that while the woman’s body lay in the cabin for eight days, the FBI used megaphones to taunt the family.  Good morning, Mrs. Weaver. We had pancakes for breakfast. What did you have?’”

I'll never forget this...

They did that stuff at Waco as well, playing tapes of animals being slaughtered all night, running over bodies with tanks...psyops can be a useful tool. Psyops against American citizens in this context is disturbing on a sort of "satanic" level.





Speed



 

This is exactly what happened then.  Nothing ever changes.

I wonder if Horiuchi is still in hiding with a protective detail paid for by us?
I hope  bad things happen to hima and his family; every disaster and bit of bad luck  possible. He's the equivalent of a war criminal.

I came in after this guy, but I would love to know what was said to make him infamous.

He is/was a smart guy, but his support of everything government left your jaw on the floor.



You can probably find it in the archives. I will look.



Here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/746417__ARCHIVED_THREAD____16th_Anniversery_of_the_Ruby_Ridge_Stand_off.html&page=5



Look for this and stupidity will follow.

The FLIR footage was what made me sit up and really think.

Ask yourself this, with all the violent crime in America, all the illicit drugs being brought in, all the child abuse, rape, murder, terrorist activity, etc. why on Earth would the U.S. government spend tens of millions of dollars for operations such as Ruby Ridge and Waco? Was the Weaver family or David Koresh such great threats to America, its sovereignty, and its citizens that the government needed to bring to bear its full might and power against them? Apparently to the alphabet soup of federal government agencies, families such as the Weavers, or men like David Koresh, are.

The same concept works when a cop at a regular stop asks if he can search your car and you say no.  It's not the original crime, if there ever was one, it's the resistance statists hate.

How many times did Glenn refer to George Washington during the story?

That was a good post, and I read it all!

No, nothing does ever change. At least, not in this current stage of human societal evolution. Mankind today is no different than when men first banded together to form structured groups. Back then, tens of thousands of years ago, one person realized being the tribal chief was better than being a rank and file tribesman. Being on top of the societal pyramid meant a better life, better food, choice of better mates, etc. That concept has been a staple of human society for tens of thousands of years and is no different today. And in reality it is not much different than in the animal kingdom. Would you rather be a lion or a gazelle? Would you rather be the alpha male of the wolf pack, or just one of the rank-n-file wolves? We try and convince ourselves that we humans are so much more evolved than the wild animals, and technologically and socially we are, but on a basic level, we are no different when it comes to the fundamentals.

Welp, H-S Precision had no problem cozying up to him a couple years back and getting his 'endorsement' and Horiuchi had no problem being back in the public eye.  Make no mistake: That piece of shit feels ZERO remorse for his roles at Waco and Ruby Ridge and probably all of the other things that we don't know about.

He didnt miss. That was just his story. from what i understand, or have read(its been awhile since i read up. need a refresher probably) Agents heard several shots from Horuichi's position over the days at RR. Cant remember if it was at the same time he shot vicki, or if it was over a period of time. There have also been reports that people heard Horiuchi firing from his position at Waco, and that they found numerous spent brass casings.

If I made a mistake in my post, let me know.

Otherwise, don't take cheap-shots trying to compare my position that it should have led to prison time for those taking the wrong shot to D_A who purposefully instigated fellows, then report them when they lost their temper. That is a low-blow.

As it stands, that is how I see it. Mistakes were made on both sides of the line.

I don't agree with your assesment on multiple points.  I don't believe that the government should be allowed to run entrapment schemes against citizens which is how the whole thing started.  



I removed the post comparing you to Dave_A.

They would be branded as racists and child pornographers.  

I don't think many know that FBI Assistant Director Larry Potts was directly involved in Ruby Ridge, Waco and OKC (specifically fingered by Terry Nichols as McVeigh's handler). The mathematical chances of him being that coincidentally involved in all 3 are astronomical; especially after the lack of judgement he showed at Ruby Ridge:



Potts is definitely someone that should be hounded for hard answers.

In for a link for a youtube vid if possible.

At Waco they played "Achy-Breaky Heart" over and over.

Hope he doesn't have a hunting accident.

glad we have so many government dick fluffers here.  

No doubt.

Fuck that nut. Go to youtube and watch the man that was there tell it.

Thanks,

Allright, well, we agree on entrapment schemes being douchebaggery...

Have a good evening, brother.