Why all of these posts for something so obvious ? Sometimes I think Eric The Hun has nothing better to do than raise an argument on this site ... Gotta Love Him !

I didn't know that a cafeteria is a "warzone"...

And I guess that 9-11 Pals were dancing in the streets because there was the National Festival of Popular Dance and they didn't know anything about the bad Zionists that were attacking the WTC all dressed like beduins and speaking arabic...

I guess that when something is concerning Jews, even if americans, every coward and treacherous action is justifiable for you.

Don't complaint I am insulting you. I read too many things from you that are insulting me.
And truth...

I salute you on your convictions and faith, but is it up to us mortals to judge these people death for not following the path we believe is right? Or is it our duty to show them this path.

If we go about advocating killing those who don't believe in our God, we reduce ourselves to the level of the Islamists who advocate the eradications of Jews and Christians for the same reason.

Let's not do that, buddy.


Edited to change Islamics to Islamists, coz I think that's the more correct term.

Post from garandman -

There is simply [u]no[/u] such thing as a 100% surgically precise strike in modern military situations.

Ask Israel, for although they probably have as much practice in 'surgical strikes' as any other country on the planet, know all too well that innocent civilans are going to be killed.

It is the nature of their enemies, it is the nature of our enemies, that they will not come out into the field of battle to engage us, but always require that we go into their lairs to root them out.

Unfortunately for both the United States and Israel, their enemies always place their lairs in the midst of innocent civilian populations.

And if you require [u]100% surgical precision[/u], then the United States would never drop another bomb, fire another rocket, or shoot another bullet.

All you can hope for is that you kill and injure the very least number of innocent civilians that you can.

Both the United States and Israel have a pretty good history of that.

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

anyway the sentence was executed by Romans.
In law there are "commissioners" and "executioners".

If (according to your interpretation) Jews were the "commissioner" of J.C. murder, the Romans are anyway "executers" of this act.

It's again the same twisted logic that christians used against Jews for centuries... nobody heard something like "personal responsibility".

And furthermore: any other evidence that what is written in the New Testament is true?

I mean, OBJECTIVE evidences...

I can tell you: NONE!!!

That is a given, but I'm curious to hear whether you'd be in favour of 90% precision over say 30% precision. If I hear you speak out against indiscriminate action (eg bombing Detroit for a ghetto crime, eg nuking Palys for some murderous terrorists).




In favour of less killing.

ETH and 9Divdoc Win....Game, Set, Match

(Edited at the request of ETH.)

Post from Paolo -

Please, my friend, do not insult our faith just to make a point with others.

I could likewise ask you, what objective evidence do your possess that there was a 'burning bush' in Sinai for Moishe to speak with?

But there are historians of note, such as the Jewish historian, Josephus, and the Roman, Suetonius, who both corrorated the execution of a Jew named Jesus during the procuratorship of Pontius Pilate.

The Jews never denied that Jesus lived and died among them, just that He was the promised Messiah.

That's all.

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

You don't see the difference???

I use arguments that, if someone beleives the opposite of my argument, its puts them in a bad light.

NEVER do I call anyone a "coward" or "treasonous" or "treacherous." I NEVER say you are "this or that." Such tactics are called "charachterizing" your opponent.

I make arguments. You (and others) make charachterizations.

Scan thru ALL my posts, and you'll see this is true.

See?? Charachterization.

"Himmler...Jew hater...gas chamber....flow of blood."

[snip]

Edited out by request of a Mod. And in the intersts of fairness and NOT slinging mud myself. See ETH's quote of my post to see what I edited.

Post from sesat_ram -

'If you hear' me speak out against indiscriminate action? When have I ever spoken out in favor of it? Seriously?

What I would say is that if our military tells us that they have made their mission as likely to avoid innocent civilian deaths as possible, then that is sufficient for me.

The United States does it, Israel does it, most nations in NATO try to do it.

Who doesn't do it? Palestinian terrorists.

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

What you call "facts" are "twisted logic products"...

I didn't get any single answer on facts I put.
Even on demonstration of Aristotelic logic.

I contest in the deep of my heart that there is only one way to any god.
I contest that there is even ONLY ONE SPIRITUAL way.

You are not able to "read" chronicle facts (calling "warzone"  a cafeteria in the Hebrew University is only an example), let's figure if you are able to interpret holy books...

Post from garandman -

But, [b]garandman[/b] you've already said I have [u]no[/u] credibility!

Nope. I do not. And I do not have 'minions' either. That is an insult to folks who hold their own views and that may think along similar lines as I do.

Remember, when Israel is the subject of the Poll, it is supported, invaribly, by 70% of those who vote.

Why wouldn't you suspect that 70% of all posts on the subject would support Israel, as well?

I simply don't see all that mud that you claim is being slung in your direction.

Certainly there has been a bit of mud slung, but in both directions, IMHO, and certainly nothing for anyone to get their panties in a wad over, again, IMHO.

Eric The('Minion'-less)Hun[>]:)]

Eric the Hun and Garandman both enter the West Bank.

Eric the Hun conducts himself as suggested by his posts and defends himself and attacks. He walks out of the West Bank Alive

Garandmand conducts himself as suggested by his posts and doesnot defend himself against the palestinians and does not attack. He does not walk out of the West Bank Alive.

The first purpose of Philosophy,Religeon,Ethics,Epistomology and Logic is to keep its bearer alive. If it doesn't do this , then that person is wrong.


Ben

EDITED TO ADD:
Garandman I understand what you are trying to do, and that is to be the detached observer. But you live here with us, on the planet earth and reality exists. You will not pick a side only because the Palestinians or other terrorists havn't attacked you yet.

SO I ask the underlying question: Garandman did you feel attacked on 9-11??



Ben

Argh, I forgot the last half of that sentence! It should be, if i hear you speak out... i'll be really happy. Or something like that. I know you couldn't care less about giving me such satisfaction, but I'll ask it of you anyway.

Would you be willing, could you, state that indiscriminate action is wrong?

This is not about our military, or the IDF, or the Palybombers. It's how we should treat our FELLOW human beings, it's how we would like to be treated if we were in the hotseat.

I'm suggesting that a lock be put on this thread for the follwing three reasons:

The first two are definite violations.

#1 Clone:
THIS thread (138170) is a clone of the following EARLIER thread "Saudi Arabia - Problem or Enemy?" :
[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=138155[/url]

It's founded on the same news article originally linked.
[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47913-2002Aug5.html[/url]

#2 Personal Attacks
There is a direct attack on Garandman, with the not-so-sly inference that he's a Nazi.
This could present some legal problems for the offending poster and the site. Some of the other responses went overboard, too.

#3 Degenerative behavior
What started as a geo-political discussion of some comport has degenerated into a religious and personal flame-fest.  Interesting how we let the Palestinians reduce us to THIS.

I don't believe we should expect Eric to do the deed, because he has ethical reservations about locking discussions he's involved in, or at least I think he said that once.

I've already posted to this thread, so I don't have to jump in with IBTL's, do I? :)

I think its a fair question, or at least asked with  an honest and fair intent.

OF COURSE I felt attacked. It is the one and onlky time in my life of 36 years that my mouth literally hung wide open for the inexpressible shock and rage that filled my chest. (VERY little shocks me)

That said, morality, decency, Americanism and all that is right and fair DEMANDS that we punish the ACTUAL MURDERERS that attacked us.

[b]The Palys had NO discernible or even subterfugeous(is that a word?) role in Sept 11. (other than sharing a religion and a common ancestry some 5,000 years prior) with the actual perpetrators of this attack.[/b]

Just look at all the nuances withing Christianity alone. Literally hundreds of demoninations and doctrinal statements.

Is someone out there gonna say with a straight face that Islaam is some monolithic religion, that EVERYONE who follows Islaam beieves exactly the same way with regard to the Sept 11 attacks??? Please. Yet THAT is largely the basis for their desire for what I can ONLY describe as genocide.

Thus I will stand STAUNCHLY against the Palestinian genocide that all too frequently appears unopposed in this forum, unopposed by those who are charged with the responsibility to stop it.

get teh terrorists. Aboslutely. Let Israel prosecute teh war ANY way they want WITHOUT US interference. But don't appeal to my morality or try to cow me into supporting genocide against millions of Palys. Who've done NUTHING in any regard to the Sept 11 attack.

Not even Sept 11 can cause me to lose control of my faculties long enuf to support that.

?

F&L and I both edited.

I edited the right one, right????

[BD]

Post from prk -

Sorry, [b]prk[/b], but I simply didn't see your earlier post on this very same topic. The last post on that thread was arounf 3:00 AM this morning, and when I posted this thread at 8:00 AM, I didn't see your earlier thread.

But I hardly think this is a 'clone' thread, as it wasn't done purposefully on my part, for any of the reasons prohibited in the Forum Conduct Rules.

If it's merely a 'not so sly' inference, then it is not a direct attack on [b]garandman[/b]!

And, although I am an attorney, I fail to see any legal problems that could be cuased either the poster or this site for the expression of an opinion.

There is a legal difference between saying that someone acts like a Nazi, and that someone is a Nazi! The former is a matter of opinion, the latter is a statement of fact!

Then the answer is to clean up whatever trash may be on this thread, and not to lock the thread from further discussion.

Although, in all fairness, this thread has already plumbed the differences which we have regarding the matter of Saudi Arabia and Israel.

Eric The(Rational)Hun[>]:)]

I've never denied that.

I just understand that when teh USA funds Israels war machine, provides them ordnance, technical data, not to mention billions in other domestic aid, and then all that graft is used to kill Palestinians, that the USA has chosen sides in this war.

And that the Palys understand this.

WHEN China comes to attack us, WHOEVER it is that aids China will become my enemy. Then, I will applaud their deaths, and party like its 2999.

Israel makes war with the Palys. We aid them. Sorry, but I am just NOT shocked at the predictable reaction of the Palys to when calamity befalls us.

We've made them our enemies, by joining their enemies.

And I am surprised to see you split legal hairs EVEN when someone insinuates that I am aligned with the MOST reprehensible movement in the history of the world.

I'm your brother in arms, and you can't lay down the battle ax long enuf to see that that is WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone else sees it - why not you????

Especially when you expressed umbrage the ONE time I questioned your patriotism. FOR WHICH I apologized and desisted.

Maybe you DO NOT consider me your brother in arms. Just lemme know so I can plan accordingly.

So it took this long for them to figure it out. WTF we all knew it and every administration knows or knew it. We just suck up because of Oil...

I have been saying all along either let us in to wipe out the problem or keep taking it up the Rear End. We are the only country that will send people to die and when we win give everything back. Also pay the people for the damage we did.

We need to get in there rid the middle east of terrorism and stay there. We need to overtake the oil fields and bring OPEC to their knees. They are a bunch of terrorist also.

It's time for us to start laughing and say you bunch of A-Holes..Keep your religion we will keep your oil. Time to put up or shut up. Sooner or later we are going to be fighting there again. Most likely alone and we should own what we win alone also.

Post from garandman -

I recognize that hyperbole is a useful tool on this Board in our discussions, but I expected you to beat back the attack!

I wouldn't allow anyone to call you a Nazi or to say that you were anti-Semitic in the least, but I do think that it is fair comment to say that someone's views are similar to others that are Nazi or anti-Semitic.

That you can defend against by showing how they differ, etc. You can even take aim at their heads, and I wouldn't raise a hand to stop you!

That's what these discussions are for, I would hope.

And insofar as being a Brother in Arms, of course I am, [b]garandman[/b], as well as a Brother in Christ.

So while I can smack your views around a bit, I would never dare smack you around!

Even [u]if[/u] I could!

Eric The(Brotherly)Hun[>]:)]

Yes! Finally someone puts it in writing.

And this is the REAL reason that we cant get anyone in the Middle East OR Europe to go along with a attack on Iraq. They would much rather a city get nuked or a major epidemic, which most likely would only be targeted at Isreal or the United States, than risk us acquiring a secure source of cheep oil and become the economic 800 pound gorillia that they cant manipulate...

You just can't bring yourself to SIMPLY say its wrong. Even when half a dozen other people already have.

The "Nazi" slur / inference is NOT hyperbole. Its a personal attack.

You can't say someone is Nazi-like any more more than you can say someone is just SLIGHTLY a child molestor / rapist / murderer.

I have to conclude that you allow the slanderous refernce because of your strong ideological agreement with those who do it against me, with whom you have strong ideological disagreement.

That's the way I see it.

And it may interest you to know I've on occasion defended you against this type of thing. You know who I'm talking about.

Its what brothers in arms do. What they don't do is try to distingiush between "Nazi" and "Nazi-like / SLIGHTLY a rapist"

Hmmmmmmmm.  And what were YOU doing at 3:00 a.m.??? Huh?? Wait a minute, never mind.  Too much information!!!


Subtance often rules over form...

Thank you for your restraint, as some of your brothers in law (not in the familial sense) can see a legal problem in just about anything.  

I'm reminded of the cartoon where a conference room full of suits is passing around a greeting card, with the balloon caption, "It says, 'Season's Greetings' -- suppose we should run it by Legal?"
I count just [b]hearing[/b] from an attorney as a legal problem, even if most of the time it's easily resolved.
Just having to get a ruling costs $$$$$$$





I agree, but for whatever reason, some really offensive stuff remained as I composed this.

I would insert "once again" in your last sentence - between 'plumbed' and 'differences'.

There are parallels between the way we replay these issues, and disfunctional families and their dynamics.

Post from garandman -

No, [b]garandman[/b], you are wrong about that.

I do not delete or lock in this thread because to do so would be patently unfair, since I have posted as much as anyone here.

For me to suddenly to well up and declare that such and such is way off base would not pass the smell test!

I count on everyone to mind their 'p's and 'q's and to adhere to the Forums Conduct Code. Period.

In the meanwhile, you can surely smack back at those who abuse you, without fear of reprisal from [u]me[/u], of all people!

I recall one time when someone we both know was continually calling me an 'xian' and you a 'Christian', simply because they didn't like my views, but liked yours.

It never occurred to me that you should have jumped in to defend me. I thought that it was something that I could handle. I figured you thought that as well.

And, as usual, I did! [:D]

Eric The(Agreeable)Hun[>]:)]

Wow! At least one mod gets it. Goatboy didn't seem to when I asked the mod's at large to do that.

Hmmmm, I often disagree with you on Middle East issues, but I find this very true.

The Saudi's also are viewed as corrupt in the M.E., and the US is given scorn for keeping them in power.



Yeah, this is totally wrong.

I remember you saying you often have to deal with bounced checks at your job. This is similar to someone saying the check writer isn't at fault it's YOUR FAULT FOR ACCEPTING CHECKS.

Or blaming robbery, burglary, homicide, or sexual assualt victims for the acts of CRIMINALS.



Well your either fer' us or again us. They get to pick..................there may be consequences for those decisions.

And the rule being that when a vioaltion of the Code of Conduct occurs in a thread you are in, you contact ANOTHER Mod to come take a look.

If your job is just to trust people will mind there P's and Q's, what in the world do we keep you around for???  That would make THEM the Mods (a self-moderated forum), and you are just dead weight.

And even if we're paying you nuthin', we're still over payin you!!!

[}:D]

Post from garandman -

And the fact being that I must first discern a violation of the Forum Conduct Code before I get another Mod involved.

Maybe I just have a very high tolerance for such matters, being on the receiving end myself of quite a few!

Hey! Didn't you just get your knuckles rapped for something you said about me? Well, I didn't say a word about it. I didn't take it as out of line.

See, even with myself as a target, I still fail to see 'attacks' even when they occur on me!

That's what I count on, for adults to be reasonable adults! It's tiresome babysitting around a campfire of grown men and womenz.

I [u]never[/u] said I wasn't dead weight!

But in other people's mind, I'm a Jewel!

Eric The(Unfortunately,They'reThinking'RichardJewel')Hun[>]:)]

I'm glad [b][i]someone[/i][/b] in this government has the stones to just come out and say it. The State Department can't seem to unlock their lips from the nether regions of the House of Saud long enough to say anything intelligible at all.

Bush shakes his pompoms right along with Powell.

I got to go out to Roosevelt Island this past weekend, and saw a big statue of a [b]REAL[/b] Republican President, one of whom we could actually be proud.

[img]http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/graph%20priv%20coll/Colonel%20Roosevelt.jpg[/img]
TR, where are you when we need you?

Looks like the Arab states spent a lot of money in Germany recently.

[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=138243[/url]

Look we all know how beauracracies work. We can argue this crap all day long.  But the one thing to keep in mind is this.  A solution must be made for all of our lives are at stake including Garandmans. The only Solution that has the absoluteness necessary to enforce a lasting peace, in the absence of a mutual agreement between both parties, is war. There will be no mutual agreement as the two parties are diametrically opposed, with good reason and cause on one side only; the American side, so therefore war is inevitable. Everyone has objective proof that both the Palestinians and all other Terrorist organizations throughout the middle east and here in the United States are actively seeking and/or are making War upon the United States of America, this fact is irrefutable.

Garandmans Arguments concerning wheather or not we should support Israel are without merit. I think about what he is saying and although they are valid arguments, realistically they lead to nothing save misery for the Israelies.  I wonder at what point Garandman would have stopped helping the Israelies??  Does he know that some Hungarian Jews helped build the Atomic bomb which helped end World War II and saved American Lives and that for this reason there are 1,000,000 people who got to live a good life and have probably gone on to turn that 1,000,000 into at least 6-8 million people which now reside here in America. If any one could give thanks the Americans have good and just cause to do so!! Does Garandman realize that the Israeli homeland helped stop Complete Soviet Domination of the middle east. It doesn't matter though, I can't find reason to support Garandmans arguments.

Even without American Gratitude towards the Israelies they are a good people and deserve to live free from the Horrors of innocent people being killed. They deserve that. They have that right.  

War is going to occure because there is no other solution that will make them stop. To leave Israel by herself would not stop the killing of Israelies, that is a fact, nor would it stop the killing of those 3000 in the World Trade Center.  

Garandman thinks we should use the infinite resolution of Christ to mark innocence or guilt, bombs do not have that capacity, but bombs are the only thing that will stop them and thereby save our own lives. I don't think that makes us the bad guys.We are the good guys and I can't see it any other way.


Oh well I am done here.

Ben

Remember the TV station full of civilians that was bombed?? The "convoy" of horse drawn peasents carts??

ETH, I gotta love ya because your heart (as far as I'm concerned) is in the right place. G-man, I know SOMEONE loves ya [}:D]. But this thread was about our relations with the Saudis. I agree completely with ETHs points. As far as I'm concerned the Saudis are not our buddies. But this has degenerated into I don't know what! I'm seeing the old blood libel charge being tossed around by G, and all kinds of name calling. WTH does this have to do with the Saudis? To quote my fellow Arizonans NADA! I've read this thread all through the day and it's turned into a brawl. The strange thing to me is, I believe you are both devout Christians but if I was looking at this if never seeing one of these rows for the first time I would not believe you are co-religionists! By the way, as I type Israeli tanks and APCs are moving into Gaza. Hope they deal with Hamas once and for all!

I was getting ready to post a response when I read this by g-man. I'll just say "ditto". I'd like to add, who knows the mind of the Lord, and his plans of salvation? You know Jane Roe, (Pro-abortion fame), got saved, and now works in a clinic to save the unborn? How many innocents would we kill that maybe the Lord has plans for? Go after the guilty for sure. I agree with you about the "Islamists". It is NOT a peaceful religon, and we will have to deal with it. Then again, we know what time it is, don't we?

from another thread....

[url]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=138251[/url]

From Garandman


Now which one is it?  Murder or an act of war...

Make up your mind.

You use the phrases "every one has objective proof" and "this fact is irrefutable", so I'd like to see you back that statement up that there are Palys here seeking to make war on us.


Edited to add: Ben, did you say what you said because you know so, or because it felt natural to state it?

sesat_ram, we might ask something similar of you.  What proof do YOU have that the guy with the diaper around his head that CHEERED 9/11 is NOT a terrorist?  These people need to distance themselves from the vermin that attacked US.  I have seen nearly zero effort in that direction.

As for the Saudis, ask veterans of the Gulf war what their "hosts" though of them and America - and we were there defending THEIR worthless asses!

You can't prove a negative.  Bad debate skills make for bad debate[;)]

A palestinian suicide bomber runs into the University Cafeteria in Israel and blows himself up, Murdering 4 American Citizens. That is an act of War. I said what I said in that entire paragraph because it is true.

Did you use the word "here" -"there are Palys "here" seeking ... ?? Is there a difference. If you are overseas and you are murdered that could legally be an act of war, chances are you are not important enough for that, nor am I, but if you were the president of the US than you sure would be worth going to war over, but is the common American worth Less?? Is the act less vile??? NO!

Ben

EVIDENCE YOU WANTED:

I presume by "act of war" you mean an act of war towards the United States. I disagree, it is as much an act of war as a American citizen touring France being mugged and killed. The 3+2 Americans were murdered yes, however the intentions of their murderers were to kill Israelis. The Hamas spokesman subsequently said that they had not intended to murder Americans, just Israelis, and regretted (though they didn't say they were sorry) for the American deaths.

If Hamas wanted to kill Americans on that day, they would have made damn sure to proudly let us all know. That's the hallmark of terrorists, they don't disavow responsibility; they bask in the glory of their work.

So back to the Palys, no they did not declare war on America. Yes they're pissed at Americans for funding their enemy, which you would be too if we were in a similar position. However I believe them to have no intention to hurt us, something that would truly TRULY be dissasterous for their cause, 'coz we'll go kick their asses.

So I certainly doubt there are any Palestinian interests in terror cells here. They'd be more interested in focusing their resources in terrorising people that MATTER to them, namely the poor Israelis.