[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Conservative labor unions? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/24/2012 1:26:43 PM EDT
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Could there ever be such a thing? Or are the principles of the labor union opposed to there ever being one? While firm capitalist I do think that a union can have a part in business, but not to the extent of what we have now. Discuss |
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. Or are the principles of the labor union opposed to there ever being one? . Group negotiation - limits on productivity - protection of the non productive with senority VS individual initiative, exceeding expectations, drive for excellence. Yeah I don't think these two can really get together. |
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The bedrock of the labor movement is progressive socialism.
It is entirely antithetical to conservatism. You might find a conservative or three amongst the rank and file as many of the working class do hold those beliefs but he would not be a true union man and probably got there under duress or from ignorance or out of convenience. He wouldn't be a true conservative either. Most of the ones I know actually believe that Communist nonsense. |
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As a Member of the Steel Workers Union, I can tell you for a fact that all the members I know (i'm a shop Steward) are Conservative and will not and did not vote for the current administration.
Public sector unions seem to be the thorn in everyone's side now. Wonder what the U.S. Military would look like if it were Unionized ? |
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Wonder what the U.S. Military would look like if it were Unionized ? Get done about 1/4 of what get's done currently at twice the cost. Privates submitting grievences when the platoon leader makes them attend saturday training or morning PT runs an extra 10 minutes.. |
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Quoted: Could there ever be such a thing? Or are the principles of the labor union opposed to there ever being one? While firm capitalist I do think that a union can have a part in business, but not to the extent of what we have now. Discuss And what part is that? |
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Not that he was all that "Conservative" but, Sam Gompers told the socialists where to get off back in the day. ""I want to tell you Socialists,” he said, "that I have studied your philosophy … I have kept close watch upon your doctrines for thirty years; have been closely associated with many of you, … And I want to say that I am entirely at variance with your philosophy … Economically, you are unsound; socially you are wrong; industrially, you are an impossibility.” |
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Could there ever be such a thing? Or are the principles of the labor union opposed to there ever being one? While firm capitalist I do think that a union can have a part in business, but not to the extent of what we have now. Discuss And what part is that? The part that is the business's downfall. |
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As a Member of the Steel Workers Union, I can tell you for a fact that all the members I know (i'm a shop Steward) are Conservative and will not and did not vote for the current administration. Public sector unions seem to be the thorn in everyone's side now. Wonder what the U.S. Military would look like if it were Unionized ? Yet the guy who's paycheck your dues go to is one of the most influential people to the President though... (Leo Gerard). |
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Were there not at one time things called trade unions that basically taught people how to practice that trade and policed their own? They had a sense of pride about their work and sought to keep those not worthy out. But all must admit that back in the industrial revolution where people were worked like dogs the unions did do some good for the people. I remember hearing about company stores and employees having to rent housing from the company and paying high rents so as to keep the employee at the mercy of the business. |
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Many of the public unions around here have endorsed Republicans. The makeup was near 50/50 Republican and Democrat but that has swung a lot to the D side post SB5 in Ohio. So they sold their soul on one side or the other eh. Just endorsed who they thought would be the most beneficial on a single issue, their job. |
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The hourly employees of government defense contractors are basically given two choices accept Area Wage Determination or Unionize.
You bust your ass and go to the boss and ask for a raise? They hide behind the AWD and won't offer a cent more. The only way to obtain a raise is wait for DoL to give you one based on their evaluation of the local market or enter into a collective bargaining agreement through a union negotiator. My point is a true meritocracy cannot exists because of existing government regulations. In a truely free market you sink or swim based on your own merits as an employee. The Defense contracting system specifically is crony capitalist. |
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.But all must admit that back in the industrial revolution where people were worked like dogs the unions did do some good for the people... Agreed, but then like a govt agency that no longer serves a purpose - they went full retard trying to justify their existance. |
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As a Member of the Steel Workers Union, I can tell you for a fact that all the members I know (i'm a shop Steward) are Conservative and will not and did not vote for the current administration. Public sector unions seem to be the thorn in everyone's side now. Wonder what the U.S. Military would look like if it were Unionized ? Yet the guy who's paycheck your dues go to is one of the most influential people to the President though... (Leo Gerard). And they keep taking more and more... Bastards |
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Quoted: Were there not at one time things called trade unions that basically taught people how to practice that trade and policed their own? They had a sense of pride about their work and sought to keep those not worthy out. But all must admit that back in the industrial revolution where people were worked like dogs the unions did do some good for the people. I remember hearing about company stores and employees having to rent housing from the company and paying high rents so as to keep the employee at the mercy of the business. The stonemasons were the template for trade unions, and in some ways they carried those traditions on...but after the industrial revolution the unions morphed into political bodies, just as businesses became politicized in a way. I'm a trade union member, and take great pride in my skill and education. I don't have a single shared belief with the political dipshits that my union leadership supports, but at the core of it many trade union workers are still like me and not the kind of "union scum" that mouth-breathing ARFcom paints all union members as. |
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Were there not at one time things called trade unions that basically taught people how to practice that trade and policed their own? They had a sense of pride about their work and sought to keep those not worthy out. But all must admit that back in the industrial revolution where people were worked like dogs the unions did do some good for the people. I remember hearing about company stores and employees having to rent housing from the company and paying high rents so as to keep the employee at the mercy of the business. The stonemasons were the template for trade unions, and in some ways they carried those traditions on...but after the industrial revolution the unions morphed into political bodies, just as businesses became politicized in a way. I'm a trade union member, and take great pride in my skill and education. I don't have a single shared belief with the political dipshits that my union leadership supports, but at the core of it many trade union workers are still like me and not the kind of "union scum" that mouth-breathing ARFcom paints all union members as. “Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down? We do! We do! Who leaves Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps? We do! We do! Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star? We do! We do! Who robs the cave fish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscar night? We do! We do!” |
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The bedrock of the labor movement is progressive socialism. It is entirely antithetical to conservatism. Indeed. "The workers control the means of production." That's socialism. That's not "kinda like something I dislike so it's socialism", socialism either. That's like straight up Vladimir Lenin socialism. Big parades, bad music, and big paintings of ugly farm women socialism. The no-bullshit kind. |
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Quoted: Quoted: The bedrock of the labor movement is progressive socialism. It is entirely antithetical to conservatism. Indeed. "The workers control the means of production." That's socialism. That's not "kinda like something I dislike so it's socialism", socialism either. That's like straight up Vladimir Lenin socialism. Big parades, bad music, and big paintings of ugly farm women socialism. The no-bullshit kind. Yeah, except you're confused we're not talking about the labor movement we're talking about unions. The concept of a union, distilled to its core, is that workers join together to speak as a single body instead of individuals. That's it, there's nothing socialist in that concept except lobbying for better terms as a group. What unions have become and who influenced them is something very different, but the idea of unions isn't substantially different really than many businesses joining together to form a conglomerate for their mutual benefits....in terms of politics or conservatism. |
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Quoted: Well said!Quoted: Quoted: The bedrock of the labor movement is progressive socialism. It is entirely antithetical to conservatism. Indeed. "The workers control the means of production." That's socialism. That's not "kinda like something I dislike so it's socialism", socialism either. That's like straight up Vladimir Lenin socialism. Big parades, bad music, and big paintings of ugly farm women socialism. The no-bullshit kind. Yeah, except you're confused we're not talking about the labor movement we're talking about unions. The concept of a union, distilled to its core, is that workers join together to speak as a single body instead of individuals. That's it, there's nothing socialist in that concept except lobbying for better terms as a group. What unions have become and who influenced them is something very different, but the idea of unions isn't substantially different really than many businesses joining together to form a conglomerate for their mutual benefits....in terms of politics or conservatism.  |
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It seems most people who talk shit about the unions have either never been in one or dont know what the hell they are talking about. I have been a member of a seamans union before. I am presently in a nonunion company and I love it. Still, there were a lot of rank and file union members that held pretty conservative views. |
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Still, there were a lot of rank and file union members that held pretty conservative views. If so many rank and file union members are such staunch conservatives, why don't they make some noise about the money their liberal overlords contribute to liberal candidates/change the leadership? |
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The bedrock of the labor movement is progressive socialism. It is entirely antithetical to conservatism. Indeed. "The workers control the means of production." That's socialism. That's not "kinda like something I dislike so it's socialism", socialism either. That's like straight up Vladimir Lenin socialism. Big parades, bad music, and big paintings of ugly farm women socialism. The no-bullshit kind. Yeah, except you're confused we're not talking about the labor movement we're talking about unions. The concept of a union, distilled to its core, is that workers join together to speak as a single body instead of individuals. That's it, there's nothing socialist in that concept except lobbying for better terms as a group. What unions have become and who influenced them is something very different, but the idea of unions isn't substantially different really than many businesses joining together to form a conglomerate for their mutual benefits....in terms of politics or conservatism. And by what force is the company compelled to listen to the union? That's always been the problem. "Or we'll quit." Fine, that's groovy, I'm down with that. The problem is that nobody's ever satisfied with that. In the beginning of the labor movement, companies were compelled to listen through violence. Now it's law. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The bedrock of the labor movement is progressive socialism. It is entirely antithetical to conservatism. Indeed. "The workers control the means of production." That's socialism. That's not "kinda like something I dislike so it's socialism", socialism either. That's like straight up Vladimir Lenin socialism. Big parades, bad music, and big paintings of ugly farm women socialism. The no-bullshit kind. Yeah, except you're confused we're not talking about the labor movement we're talking about unions. The concept of a union, distilled to its core, is that workers join together to speak as a single body instead of individuals. That's it, there's nothing socialist in that concept except lobbying for better terms as a group. What unions have become and who influenced them is something very different, but the idea of unions isn't substantially different really than many businesses joining together to form a conglomerate for their mutual benefits....in terms of politics or conservatism. And by what force is the company compelled to listen to the union? That's always been the problem. "Or we'll quit." Fine, that's groovy, I'm down with that. So am I. The problem is that nobody's ever satisfied with that. In the beginning of the labor movement, companies were compelled to listen through violence. Now it's law. Don't move the goalpost. We're talking about the idea of union being conservative or liberal. That's all, not what the labor movement and society has transmorphed unions into. Nothing about a group of co-workers telling the boss "we speak together on issues of our pay and conditions" is socialist, or conservative, or anything else. It's just something they can opt to do that is a leverage that's sometimes stronger than a single voice. And, there's nothing conservative about a business firing them all because he can, or acquiescing to their demands. It's just business, good or bad. |
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The bedrock of the labor movement is progressive socialism. It is entirely antithetical to conservatism. Indeed. "The workers control the means of production." That's socialism. That's not "kinda like something I dislike so it's socialism", socialism either. That's like straight up Vladimir Lenin socialism. Big parades, bad music, and big paintings of ugly farm women socialism. The no-bullshit kind. Yeah, except you're confused we're not talking about the labor movement we're talking about unions. The concept of a union, distilled to its core, is that workers join together to speak as a single body instead of individuals. That's it, there's nothing socialist in that concept except lobbying for better terms as a group. What unions have become and who influenced them is something very different, but the idea of unions isn't substantially different really than many businesses joining together to form a conglomerate for their mutual benefits....in terms of politics or conservatism. And by what force is the company compelled to listen to the union? That's always been the problem. "Or we'll quit." Fine, that's groovy, I'm down with that. So am I. The problem is that nobody's ever satisfied with that. In the beginning of the labor movement, companies were compelled to listen through violence. Now it's law. Don't move the goalpost. We're talking about the idea of union being conservative or liberal. That's all, not what the labor movement and society has transmorphed unions into. Nothing about a group of co-workers telling the boss "we speak together on issues of our pay and conditions" is socialist, or conservative, or anything else. It's just something they can opt to do that is a leverage that's sometimes stronger than a single voice. And, there's nothing conservative about a business firing them all because he can, or acquiescing to their demands. It's just business, good or bad. Aaah, so you're talking about a theoretical union, separate from things like unions, the world we live in, or the history of man. Got it. Nevermind then. 
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. Or are the principles of the labor union opposed to there ever being one? . Group negotiation - limits on productivity - protection of the non productive with senority VS individual initiative, exceeding expectations, drive for excellence. Yeah I don't think these two can really get together. If people keep lying about unions, I don't see much hope, either. |
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The bedrock of the labor movement is progressive socialism. It is entirely antithetical to conservatism. Indeed. "The workers control the means of production." That's socialism. That's not "kinda like something I dislike so it's socialism", socialism either. That's like straight up Vladimir Lenin socialism. Big parades, bad music, and big paintings of ugly farm women socialism. The no-bullshit kind. Yeah, except you're confused we're not talking about the labor movement we're talking about unions. The concept of a union, distilled to its core, is that workers join together to speak as a single body instead of individuals. That's it, there's nothing socialist in that concept except lobbying for better terms as a group. What unions have become and who influenced them is something very different, but the idea of unions isn't substantially different really than many businesses joining together to form a conglomerate for their mutual benefits....in terms of politics or conservatism. And by what force is the company compelled to listen to the union? That's always been the problem. "Or we'll quit." Fine, that's groovy, I'm down with that. So am I. The problem is that nobody's ever satisfied with that. In the beginning of the labor movement, companies were compelled to listen through violence. Now it's law. Don't move the goalpost. We're talking about the idea of union being conservative or liberal. That's all, not what the labor movement and society has transmorphed unions into. Nothing about a group of co-workers telling the boss "we speak together on issues of our pay and conditions" is socialist, or conservative, or anything else. It's just something they can opt to do that is a leverage that's sometimes stronger than a single voice. And, there's nothing conservative about a business firing them all because he can, or acquiescing to their demands. It's just business, good or bad. Aaah, so you're talking about a theoretical union, separate from things like unions, the world we live in, or the history of man. Got it. Nevermind then.
I work in a union quite like he describes. If you don't produce, management will simply tell the hall they don't want you. It does wonders for our motivation. IBEW!! |
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As a Member of the Steel Workers Union, I can tell you for a fact that all the members I know (i'm a shop Steward) are Conservative and will not and did not vote for the current administration. Public sector unions seem to be the thorn in everyone's side now. Wonder what the U.S. Military would look like if it were Unionized ? Yeah but your dues went straight to Obama, Reid, and Pelosi. |
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union workers contributed to obama. This union member contributed votes and financially to conservative candidates. This union member also requested refunds for dues not used to represent me (political funds). Did they give you anything back? Genuinely curious. Also if they did what union was it? |
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Quoted: Quoted: union workers contributed to obama. This union member contributed votes and financially to conservative candidates. This union member also requested refunds for dues not used to represent me (political funds). Good to hear. I grew up in SE Ohio and remember how the coal company unions (most probably driven by the leadership as you've said) in that area and WV and KY used to be very liberal minded (remember LBJ's Appalachian initiative that backfired?) but coal was also not seen as an enemy to the government at that time. I read an article today though, in the NY Times no less, about the recent murder of a young coal miner in KY and although that in and of itself isn't germaine to the discussion, one thing jumped out at me immediately as different than it was back then. They interviewed a store owner that knew the young man and that caters almost exclusively to miners and the author made note of the fact that the store owner kept a picture of Obama by the register that said "He Hates Coal". I thought to myself "well now they are starting to get it and it's about time." Like I said, the article itself isn't really relevant, but here it is if you're interested http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/us/wife-and-lover-charged-in-coal-country-killing.html?pagewanted=all |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: union workers contributed to obama. This union member contributed votes and financially to conservative candidates. This union member also requested refunds for dues not used to represent me (political funds). Did they give you anything back? Genuinely curious. Also if they did what union was it? Yes. Bound by law to do so, btw. CWA vs. Beck, 1988. This was the GCIU, now part of the Teamsters Intl. |
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Could there ever be such a thing? Or are the principles of the labor union opposed to there ever being one? While firm capitalist I do think that a union can have a part in business, but not to the extent of what we have now. Discuss Depends on how shitty the business treats it's employees. If they are not permitted a lunch break, and the doors are kept chained, then yes, the union is a valid part of business. OTOH, if the company refuses to pay workers to dismantle parts and then reassemble the same parts, at $90/hour with retirement benefits, then NO, the union is invalid. |
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It seems most people who talk shit about the unions have either never been in one or dont know what the hell they are talking about. International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, Moving Picture Technicians, Artists and Allied Crafts of the United States, It's Territories and Canada. I.A.T.S.E. Local #487, dues paying, card carrying member for fifteen years. What's your point, brother? |
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Quoted: Quoted: It seems most people who talk shit about the unions have either never been in one or dont know what the hell they are talking about. International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, Moving Picture Technicians, Artists and Allied Crafts of the United States, It's Territories and Canada. I.A.T.S.E. Local #487, dues paying, card carrying member for fifteen years. What's your point, brother? Quoted: The bedrock of the labor movement is progressive socialism. It is entirely antithetical to conservatism. You might find a conservative or three amongst the rank and file as many of the working class do hold those beliefs but he would not be a true union man and probably got there under duress or from ignorance or out of convenience. He wouldn't be a true conservative either. Most of the ones I know actually believe that Communist nonsense. So you were there under duress, ignorance or convenience? And, let's talk about your conservatism, shall we?  Did you ever petition your union for a refund of your dues? If not, why? |
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Were there not at one time things called trade unions that basically taught people how to practice that trade and policed their own? They had a sense of pride about their work and sought to keep those not worthy out. But all must admit that back in the industrial revolution where people were worked like dogs the unions did do some good for the people. I remember hearing about company stores and employees having to rent housing from the company and paying high rents so as to keep the employee at the mercy of the business. The stonemasons were the template for trade unions, and in some ways they carried those traditions on...but after the industrial revolution the unions morphed into political bodies, just as businesses became politicized in a way. I'm a trade union member, and take great pride in my skill and education. I don't have a single shared belief with the political dipshits that my union leadership supports, but at the core of it many trade union workers are still like me and not the kind of "union scum" that mouth-breathing ARFcom paints all union members as. This is well put. I think it depends on the profession. And don't kid yourselves that all companies are enlightened and agree that a good day's work deserves a good day's pay. Many companies value their workers and work in partnership with them. Some don't. The biggest problem is that unions are obligated to defend shitheads when the company brings action against the shithead. |
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Were there not at one time things called trade unions that basically taught people how to practice that trade and policed their own? They had a sense of pride about their work and sought to keep those not worthy out. But all must admit that back in the industrial revolution where people were worked like dogs the unions did do some good for the people. I remember hearing about company stores and employees having to rent housing from the company and paying high rents so as to keep the employee at the mercy of the business. The stonemasons were the template for trade unions, and in some ways they carried those traditions on...but after the industrial revolution the unions morphed into political bodies, just as businesses became politicized in a way. I'm a trade union member, and take great pride in my skill and education. I don't have a single shared belief with the political dipshits that my union leadership supports, but at the core of it many trade union workers are still like me and not the kind of "union scum" that mouth-breathing ARFcom paints all union members as. “Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down? We do! We do! Who leaves Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps? We do! We do! Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star? We do! We do! Who robs the cave fish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscar night? We do! We do!” I'll never forgive them for Guttenberg. Damn StoneCutters. |
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. Or are the principles of the labor union opposed to there ever being one? . Group negotiation - limits on productivity - protection of the non productive with senority VS individual initiative, exceeding expectations, drive for excellence. Yeah I don't think these two can really get together. There's nothing saying a Union HAS to promote those things. |
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It seems most people who talk shit about the unions have either never been in one or dont know what the hell they are talking about. International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, Moving Picture Technicians, Artists and Allied Crafts of the United States, It's Territories and Canada. I.A.T.S.E. Local #487, dues paying, card carrying member for fifteen years. What's your point, brother? Quoted:
The bedrock of the labor movement is progressive socialism. It is entirely antithetical to conservatism. You might find a conservative or three amongst the rank and file as many of the working class do hold those beliefs but he would not be a true union man and probably got there under duress or from ignorance or out of convenience. He wouldn't be a true conservative either. Most of the ones I know actually believe that Communist nonsense. So you were there under duress, ignorance or convenience? And, let's talk about your conservatism, shall we?
Did you ever petition your union for a refund of your dues? If not, why? Ignorance and duress. If you want to crew on a movie you have little choice but to be in the IA. And once I was in, the propaganda and group think became apparent. I realized that I wasn't a Communist and that the union wasn't a meritocracy, in fact far from it. I was also subject to bait and switch vis rates and terms. The Nepotism and favoritism is unreal. Well beyond anything I've encountered as a freelancer. And eventually double crossed by Local #600 when I approached them about representation. I washed my hands of the entire notion. I'm not a Bolshevik. I'd rather be free. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It seems most people who talk shit about the unions have either never been in one or dont know what the hell they are talking about. International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, Moving Picture Technicians, Artists and Allied Crafts of the United States, It's Territories and Canada. I.A.T.S.E. Local #487, dues paying, card carrying member for fifteen years. What's your point, brother? Quoted: The bedrock of the labor movement is progressive socialism. It is entirely antithetical to conservatism. You might find a conservative or three amongst the rank and file as many of the working class do hold those beliefs but he would not be a true union man and probably got there under duress or from ignorance or out of convenience. He wouldn't be a true conservative either. Most of the ones I know actually believe that Communist nonsense. So you were there under duress, ignorance or convenience? And, let's talk about your conservatism, shall we? Did you ever petition your union for a refund of your dues? If not, why? Ignorance and duress. If you want to crew on a movie you have little choice but to be in the IA. And once I was in, the propaganda and group think became apparent. I realized that I wasn't a Communist and that the union wasn't a meritocracy, in fact far from it. I was also subject to bait and switch vis rates and terms. The Nepotism and favoritism is unreal. Well beyond anything I've encountered as a freelancer. And eventually double crossed by Local #600 when I approached them about representation. I washed my hands of the entire notion. I'm not a Bolshevik. I'd rather be free. Well, my union experience is very different. I work in a skilled trade, printing, in a shop with about 20 other guys, all but a handful of us are conservative and our union is pretty "hands off" until contract time. Our pay isn't really any extraordinary compared to non-union work, maybe slightly above average. I can only recall union-intervention a handful of times over 18 years of being here...mostly due to workman's comp claims or a rare disciplinary action. We have never struck, never. Been a union shop since 1927. Our owners wouldn't break the union is he could - a lot of our work comes explicitly from other union shops that desire the union bug be present on printed materials. We actually profit off our union affiliations. About the only bad I see regularly in our daily work environment where the union has anything to do with it is that some younger skilled guys are trapped by seniority, underneath guys that should really be doing something else, but that's a condition that can happen anywhere really....anyone who works in the corporate world sees this. My only personal beef with our union is they support liberal candidates at the leadership level. Once we got incorporated into the Teamsters (about 10 years ago), I resigned and requested no pay be used for non-represented issues. The resignation is a union ploy, I still get the pay and benefits of the contract, but don't get to vote on it. I have no doubt a lot of union work is as bad as your experience, but I'm living proof....they're not all that way. |
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Quoted: Well, my union experience is very different. I work in a skilled trade, printing, in a shop with about 20 other guys, all but a handful of us are conservative and our union is pretty "hands off" until contract time. Our pay isn't really any extraordinary compared to non-union work, maybe slightly above average. I can only recall union-intervention a handful of times over 18 years of being here...mostly due to workman's comp claims or a rare disciplinary action. We have never struck, never. Been a union shop since 1927. Our owners wouldn't break the union is he could - a lot of our work comes explicitly from other union shops that desire the union bug be present on printed materials. We actually profit off our union affiliations. About the only bad I see regularly in our daily work environment where the union has anything to do with it is that some younger skilled guys are trapped by seniority, underneath guys that should really be doing something else, but that's a condition that can happen anywhere really....anyone who works in the corporate world sees this. My only personal beef with our union is they support liberal candidates at the leadership level. Once we got incorporated into the Teamsters (about 10 years ago), I resigned and requested no pay be used for non-represented issues. The resignation is a union ploy, I still get the pay and benefits of the contract, but don't get to vote on it. I have no doubt a lot of union work is as bad as your experience, but I'm living proof....they're not all that way. My understanding is that there's a big difference between labor and skilled trade unions, with the latter being more akin to what guilds used to be, ie: setting standards for members, etc. Is this correct? Edited for clarity. |