[ARCHIVED THREAD] - rifle transfer problem - RESOLVED (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/6/2012 5:28:38 AM EDT
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Here's my ongoing situation:
I recently purchased a rifle in another state through Gunbroker. My FFL takes guns from non-FFLs, which happened in this case. Before the gun shipped, I emailed the owner to make sure he include a copy of his driver's license so my FFL can release the gun to me. Well, the gun shows up, and no driver's license. I contacted the seller via email to tell him my FFL needs a copy of his driver's license or he can't release the gun. I provide the FFL's phone number, email and fax number. The seller eventually responds with "I've never had any issued before" - and that's it. He hasn't sent his driver's license copy. His phone number listed in Gunbroker is out of order. My FFL says he cannot release the gun until he receives this info. I have the seller's name and address. I have repeatedly sent him emails, pretty much daily, for 4 days now. I've only received that one reply. What do I do now? What if he never sends the required info? |
Hope someone else chimes in, b/c I don't see any good results right now. |
ETA - nevermind, saw that it wasn't a card.
Have you gotten GunBroker involved? I don't know their policies, some companies try to weasel out of any responsibility for fraud by saying they only provide the forum for the transactions and don't get involved in disputes. |
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Why does someone sending a firearm to an FFL have to be licensed to drive? They don't, it's proof of who's sending the firearm to the FFL for their log book I would assume. I don't know the specifics of the laws or requirements, I sold one rifle here on the EE and shipped it without knowing this process. Guy's FFL called when he got the rifle and asked for it, had no problem sending a copy. |
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ETA - nevermind, saw that it wasn't a card. Have you gotten GunBroker involved? I don't know their policies, some companies try to weasel out of any responsibility for fraud by saying they only provide the forum for the transactions and don't get involved in disputes. Gunbroker does attempt to handle disputes. I will try that next. But what happens if he ignores them, too? |
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Just did a search online for the same problem. Here is what I came up with. Not sure if it is completely accurate.
The private seller shipped the gun directly to the receiving FFL, but did not include any government issued id with the shipment. The receiving FFL is still demanding some proof of id to complete his record keeping before transferring it to me. He has had recent experience with the local BATF auditing his records and does not want to risk having inadequate records for any weapons transferred through his shop. The ATF has responded to me that private sellers do not need to produce identification, but that the receiving FFL may demand it at their discretion. This issue was complicated because the seller used a gunsmithing address in his shipping, but claims he is not an FFL holder. My FFl is leery of this statement. My situation now is that the seller is adamant about not providing his id to the ffl holder. The ffl holder who has received the shotgun is waiting for the local ATF to provide a written declaration that he does not need the id as previously instructed verbally by the local agents. I have received statements from ATF reps that name and address is required, but no id must be presented. This has been sent to me in email and I have forwarded them to my ffl guy. As a result of these emails, he has requested a direct communication from ATF to him confirming this. He will waive his id request if he can get something in writing directly from ATF stating id is not required from private individuals. Sounds like you might need to get the ATF to give you advise on thsi and put pressure on your FFL to do the transfer. If he still won't transfer the gun take the dealer to small claims court. |
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You've got the sellers name and address or shipping address?
Put that in his book. A picture on a drivers license copy is pretty much a waste of time if you're not looking at the guy standing next to it. I've been an FFL for 13 years. Not the first time I've seen this happen. |
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Just did a search online for the same problem. Here is what I came up with. Not sure if it is completely accurate. The private seller shipped the gun directly to the receiving FFL, but did not include any government issued id with the shipment. The receiving FFL is still demanding some proof of id to complete his record keeping before transferring it to me. He has had recent experience with the local BATF auditing his records and does not want to risk having inadequate records for any weapons transferred through his shop. The ATF has responded to me that private sellers do not need to produce identification, but that the receiving FFL may demand it at their discretion. This issue was complicated because the seller used a gunsmithing address in his shipping, but claims he is not an FFL holder. My FFl is leery of this statement. My situation now is that the seller is adamant about not providing his id to the ffl holder. The ffl holder who has received the shotgun is waiting for the local ATF to provide a written declaration that he does not need the id as previously instructed verbally by the local agents. I have received statements from ATF reps that name and address is required, but no id must be presented. This has been sent to me in email and I have forwarded them to my ffl guy. As a result of these emails, he has requested a direct communication from ATF to him confirming this. He will waive his id request if he can get something in writing directly from ATF stating id is not required from private individuals. Sounds like you might need to get the ATF to give you advise on thsi and put pressure on your FFL to do the transfer. If he still won't transfer the gun take the dealer to small claims court. Thank you. That would seem to be the best solution. I guess I will contact the ATF. I understand my FFL's point of view. I'm sure he wants to keep everything legal. |
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You've got the sellers name and address or shipping address? Put that in his book. A picture on a drivers license copy is pretty much a waste of time if you're not looking at the guy standing next to it. I've been an FFL for 13 years. Not the first time I've seen this happen. So, did you release the guns to the buyer in these circumstances? I do have the name and address of the seller/shipper. |
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Yes. I make notes on these kinds of things, and along with the Gunbroker auction number, it was a non-issue during compliance inspections. That's interesting, thanks. I drafted a letter to the ATF explaining my situation. I will give the guy until early next week before I use the nuclear option. Based upon his many mis-spellings and mis-use of grammar in his emails, he doesn't appear to be very bright. My guess is: a. he's very stubborn, and doesn't like to be told what to do. b. he's slow. c. he doesn't trust the gub'ment and won't give out vital info like his DL. d. he has some type of criminal history, and doesn't want an inquiry into his past. He may not legally be able to own firearms. I'll go with a mixture of the first 3. |
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Quoted: Quoted: You've got the sellers name and address or shipping address? Put that in his book. A picture on a drivers license copy is pretty much a waste of time if you're not looking at the guy standing next to it. I've been an FFL for 13 years. Not the first time I've seen this happen. So, did you release the guns to the buyer in these circumstances? I do have the name and address of the seller/shipper. Correct, no photo ID is required. Just put his name/address in book and done. |
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I will give the guy until early next week before I use the nuclear option. What is the nuclear option? The seller is in complete compliance with the law. My FFL doesn't believe that. I guess I'll go ahead and send the letter, so I can get an affirmation from the ATF. I'm not doubting you, Renegade, but my FFL will probably want something in writing. |
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Did you tell him upfront he would need to supply this info? Yes, I told him in an email when I sent the payment. I made it quite clear. He had this info before he shipped the gun. When you sent the payment? Shouldn't you have worked this out when/before you made an offer? |
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Did you tell him upfront he would need to supply this info? Yes, I told him in an email when I sent the payment. I made it quite clear. He had this info before he shipped the gun. When you sent the payment? Shouldn't you have worked this out when/before you made an offer? Perhaps, yes. But honestly, I didn't think it'd become such an issue. I've sold guns on Gunbroker and on Arfcom's EE before, and I've always included my DL copy with the shipment. It never occurred to me that someone would be so offended by such a request. If there is no legal reason to include a DL, then this should be a non-issue. However, every FFL I've dealt with has requested one. I sent a letter to the ATF explaining my situation. I will let you all know of the result. ETA : When I sent the seller an email explaining the need for a DL, he never said he wouldn't do it, or say he'd refuse to those conditions. He went ahead and sent the rifle without one. If he had an issue with the requirement, he could have told me so before we made the transaction. He knew I requested a DL before he received any money, and before he sent the rifle. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I will give the guy until early next week before I use the nuclear option. What is the nuclear option? The seller is in complete compliance with the law. My FFL doesn't believe that. I guess I'll go ahead and send the letter, so I can get an affirmation from the ATF. I'm not doubting you, Renegade, but my FFL will probably want something in writing. Ask your FFL to show you in writing where he must have a photo ID for entry in his bound book. He won't find it, he is only required to enter name/address. Photo ID is only needed for 4473. Where does he buy his guns from? Glock? S&W? RSR? Bud's? etc? They do not provide Photo ID either and in many cases they do not even provide a copy of their FFL! |
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Why does someone sending a firearm to an FFL have to be licensed to drive? It has to be a picture ID, I think. FFL only needs photo ID for transfer out. The address on the shipping container is enough for his bound book. He may want more, but he does not have to have it. This is a new, paranoid game by FFLs. I have no idea what started it, but lots of dealers are doing it. |
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Situation - RESOLVED!
I contacted the ATF by phone. I was told by an agent that an FFL DOES NOT need an ID from the seller, only an ID from the buyer for the 4473. Renegade, you were quite correct. I am going to pick up my rifle now. Thanks to all of you for helping me with this situation. |
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Situation - RESOLVED! I contacted the ATF by phone. I was told by an agent that an FFL DOES NOT need an ID from the seller, only an ID from the buyer for the 4473. Renegade, you were quite correct. I am going to pick up my rifle now. Thanks to all of you for helping me with this situation. I thought the FFL was requiring the ID? |
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Situation - RESOLVED! I contacted the ATF by phone. I was told by an agent that an FFL DOES NOT need an ID from the seller, only an ID from the buyer for the 4473. Renegade, you were quite correct. I am going to pick up my rifle now. Thanks to all of you for helping me with this situation. While this may be true many FFLs require ID from the out-of-state shipper as a part of their business, not ATF rules. |
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Situation - RESOLVED! I contacted the ATF by phone. I was told by an agent that an FFL DOES NOT need an ID from the seller, only an ID from the buyer for the 4473. Renegade, you were quite correct. I am going to pick up my rifle now. Thanks to all of you for helping me with this situation. I wonder if the FFL will call the same agent for confirmation. |
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Just call the local/ regional Industry Operations officer with the ATF. Tell your FFL you're going to do this. They will be able to guide him  This might rub some FFLs the wrong way. It might be one of those things like "I know that the govt doesn't require it, but I do require it" |
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Situation - RESOLVED! I contacted the ATF by phone. I was told by an agent that an FFL DOES NOT need an ID from the seller, only an ID from the buyer for the 4473. Renegade, you were quite correct. I am going to pick up my rifle now. Thanks to all of you for helping me with this situation. I thought the FFL was requiring the ID? He was, and said it was an ATF requirement. It's not. |
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Just call the local/ regional Industry Operations officer with the ATF. Tell your FFL you're going to do this. They will be able to guide him This might rub some FFLs the wrong way. It might be one of those things like "I know that the govt doesn't require it, but I do require it" What is required is to have the person you received each firearm from recorded. Correctly. It's tough to do that when a firearm simply shows up via UPS/FedEx. A copy of a DL shows due diligence in attempting to confirm the identity. 
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Situation - RESOLVED! I contacted the ATF by phone. I was told by an agent that an FFL DOES NOT need an ID from the seller, only an ID from the buyer for the 4473. Renegade, you were quite correct. I am going to pick up my rifle now. Thanks to all of you for helping me with this situation. I wonder if the FFL will call the same agent for confirmation. No, he took my word for it. I have the rifle, a Wiselite Arms PPSh-41. Semi-auto, of course. |
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Why does someone sending a firearm to an FFL have to be licensed to drive? It has to be a picture ID, I think. FFL only needs photo ID for transfer out. The address on the shipping container is enough for his bound book. He may want more, but he does not have to have it. This is a new, paranoid game by FFLs. I have no idea what started it, but lots of dealers are doing it. Depending on state (or local) law, they may need to check photo ID on incoming second-hand guns from private parties. Some places have such regulations on purveyors of 2d hand wares to discourage people from selling stolen property. |
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Just call the local/ regional Industry Operations officer with the ATF. Tell your FFL you're going to do this. They will be able to guide him This might rub some FFLs the wrong way. It might be one of those things like "I know that the govt doesn't require it, but I do require it" What is required is to have the person you received each firearm from recorded. Correctly. It's tough to do that when a firearm simply shows up via UPS/FedEx. A copy of a DL shows due diligence in attempting to confirm the identity. Agreed, but it's not a legal requirement. Not to the ATF, anyway. |
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Just call the local/ regional Industry Operations officer with the ATF. Tell your FFL you're going to do this. They will be able to guide him This might rub some FFLs the wrong way. It might be one of those things like "I know that the govt doesn't require it, but I do require it" What is required is to have the person you received each firearm from recorded. Correctly. It's tough to do that when a firearm simply shows up via UPS/FedEx. A copy of a DL shows due diligence in attempting to confirm the identity. Agreed, but it's not a legal requirement. Not to the ATF, anyway. Correct––but I don't want to be the last one verifiable as holding a stolen firearm. I'm funny that way. 
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Why does someone sending a firearm to an FFL have to be licensed to drive? It has to be a picture ID, I think. FFL only needs photo ID for transfer out. The address on the shipping container is enough for his bound book. He may want more, but he does not have to have it. This is a new, paranoid game by FFLs. I have no idea what started it, but lots of dealers are doing it. Depending on state (or local) law, they may need to check photo ID on incoming second-hand guns from private parties. Some places have such regulations on purveyors of 2d hand wares to discourage people from selling stolen property. Do the federal ATF rules supercede state laws? If the ATF doesn't require an action, can a state make a law requiring one over the ATF's guidelines? |
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Why does someone sending a firearm to an FFL have to be licensed to drive? It has to be a picture ID, I think. FFL only needs photo ID for transfer out. The address on the shipping container is enough for his bound book. He may want more, but he does not have to have it. This is a new, paranoid game by FFLs. I have no idea what started it, but lots of dealers are doing it. Depending on state (or local) law, they may need to check photo ID on incoming second-hand guns from private parties. Some places have such regulations on purveyors of 2d hand wares to discourage people from selling stolen property. Do the federal ATF rules supercede state laws? If the ATF doesn't require an action, can a state make a law requiring one over the ATF's guidelines? The state/locality can have state/local rules requiring ID, etc. for gun sales. As the poster above you stated, this is fairly normal for second-hand sales. Where I live, these rules only apply to consignment guns or our store's purchase of used guns for the purpose of resale. I do not believe we have this sort of requirement for simple transfers. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just call the local/ regional Industry Operations officer with the ATF. Tell your FFL you're going to do this. They will be able to guide him This might rub some FFLs the wrong way. It might be one of those things like "I know that the govt doesn't require it, but I do require it" What is required is to have the person you received each firearm from recorded. Correctly. It's tough to do that when a firearm simply shows up via UPS/FedEx. A copy of a DL shows due diligence in attempting to confirm the identity. Agreed, but it's not a legal requirement. Not to the ATF, anyway. Correct––but I don't want to be the last one verifiable as holding a stolen firearm. I'm funny that way. yep I am sure he has gotten multiple firearms in the past with nothing but a return label to a UPS store and got fucking sick of having to run people down to get sender info sure drag the ATF info for this little non issue of store policy I wouldn't blame him for NEVER letting you set foot in his shop again and people wonder why more and more FFLs won't accept anything from a private seller its people like you and your sender |
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Situation - RESOLVED! I contacted the ATF by phone. I was told by an agent that an FFL DOES NOT need an ID from the seller, only an ID from the buyer for the 4473. Renegade, you were quite correct. I am going to pick up my rifle now. Thanks to all of you for helping me with this situation. I wonder if the FFL will call the same agent for confirmation. No, he took my word for it. I have the rifle, a Wiselite Arms PPSh-41. Semi-auto, of course. Nice, I've been looking at getting one. Why am I not seeing pics?
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Situation - RESOLVED! I contacted the ATF by phone. I was told by an agent that an FFL DOES NOT need an ID from the seller, only an ID from the buyer for the 4473. Renegade, you were quite correct. I am going to pick up my rifle now. Thanks to all of you for helping me with this situation. I wonder if the FFL will call the same agent for confirmation. No, he took my word for it. I have the rifle, a Wiselite Arms PPSh-41. Semi-auto, of course. Nice, I've been looking at getting one. Why am I not seeing pics? I just got it a few minutes ago. Give me some time. It's beautiful! |