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Posted: 7/19/2002 9:46:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 10:11:35 PM EDT
What are you planning on using it for? If it's for hunting, go with the .50, the sabotted bullets are .45 cal. The .45 shoots a .40 The .45 caliber will also foul quicker.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 10:27:44 PM EDT
I've shot muzzleloaders quite a bit and killed some deer with them, too. FWIW, I HATE inlines and all of this other horseshit people do to make an end run around state muzzleloader regulations. Lazy bastards. Here's the deal on .45 versus .50 caliber: If shooting sabots (say "SAY-BOW") the rule of thumb is the least amount of plastic (or whatever you lazy asses use for sabot material) between the bullet and bore, the more accurate the load will be. If shooting conicals, the .50 caliber wins out due to the larger wound channel made. Some food for thought: My 61-year-old Dad (that's 427 dog years to those who can use an abacus) kills a nice buck EVERY year with iron sights and one of those so-called shitty sidelock T/C Hawkens. One shot, iron sights. Why in the hell do the pups need a friggin' inline with the latest super-duper nuclear ignition system and the same scope setup as most police departments' sniper rifles? Sad.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 10:35:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 10:42:48 PM EDT
Well, based on your 209 query, I made my assumptions of sabots (the choice of lazy asses everywhere). I prefer Lee R.E.A.L. 320 grain slugs and my Dad is partial to 370 grain Maxi Balls. Shotgun? HUH? WTF? Please clarify.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 11:20:04 PM EDT
IMHO the best muzzle loader on the market now is the NEF .50 cal. It's a top break just like their Pardners & Handi-Rifles. They have removeable breech plugs which make it extremely easy to take apart & clean. It also uses the 209 priming system which beats the Hell out of using caps. I sent the receiver of my Handi-Rifle in 22 hornet in & had them mate a muzzle loader barrel to it. It shoots great & is quite accurate. It's definately worth checking out!! ColtShorty GOA KABA COA JPFO SAF NRA "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 11:22:12 PM EDT
I have a CVA 50 cal. I shoot 50 cal shells CVA just came out with that have the sabot on the back of the round in the shape of a cone. I cannot remember the name but they are much much more accurate. I don't think you need an FFL either. Good Luck
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 11:37:36 PM EDT
It also uses the 209 priming system which beats the Hell out of using caps.
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And yet caps have served well since about 1830, including all throughout the Civil War. Guess them deer I shot don't know your secret.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 11:39:30 PM EDT
I shoot 50 cal shells
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Shells? What shells? I always thought muzzleloaders used ball, caps, and powder. To what "shells" are you referring? I am curious.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 3:21:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 4:49:41 AM EDT
I shoot a 50. This is a piece I built for myself with a hunk of FL Bay tree, a barrel from my friend (Longhammock Barrels-352-748-7373), and a Siler lock kit. Everything else I fabricated, except for the T/C sites (my concession to the modern). [img]kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/i/Misc/MyML.jpg[/img] This is a round ball barrel (1/60 twist). There is a differnce in the 'bullet' barrels, which are rifled considerably faster, more in the range of our shotgun barrels (1/34). A round ball barrel 'may' shoot sabots/bullets, but not as well as a ball. You must tailor your gun to the ammo, and vise-versa, in making your decision.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 6:04:10 AM EDT
[b]if you ain't shootin a Flintlock, you ain't muzzle loadin....!!!!![/b] as was stated b4, all this new fangled bullshyt is for lazy people who can't really hack being a true blue muzzle stuffer...... [:D]
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 6:13:14 AM EDT
Depends on why you want a muzzleloader. If you're interested in one for traditions sake, intrest in history, etc., then why even bother with an inline rifle? Last year I went out with a matchlock. Got a buck first day out, too. I'm fascinated by the in-lines, but have no intrest in owning one, mostly because, somehow, a muzzleloading Remington 700 or whatnot just doesn't seem very traditional somehow. Although, now I think of it, a muzzleloading upper for the AR is probably the only upper I haven't seen. Hmmmm....
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 6:46:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:
It also uses the 209 priming system which beats the Hell out of using caps.
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And yet caps have served well since about 1830, including all throughout the Civil War. Guess them deer I shot don't know your secret.
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So I take it that you explain to all of the dear that you hunt why you use a cap instead of a flintlock?? ColtShorty GOA KABA COA JPFO SAF NRA "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 6:52:49 AM EDT
So I take it that you explain to all of the dear that you hunt why you use a cap instead of a flintlock??
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'Cause I get rained on when I hunt. That priming powder doesn't handle water very well. Looks like Kurt gets it and so does [b]CactusJack[/b].
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 6:58:02 AM EDT
BTW, Kurt, that's really a pretty rifle. For those who're so inclined, may I recommend a reprint of Ned Roberts' "The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle" from Wolfe Publishing. It's an absolutely fascinating read.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 7:28:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2002 7:29:22 AM EDT by Sukebe]
I have a Cap lock (Hawken), A flintlock (Lyman Plains rifle) and an in line( Knight D.I.S.C.) I shoot them all and have taken deer with them all. Does that make me bi, tri or confused? Either way I'm a smoke poler, not a pole smoker.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 9:02:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2002 9:06:14 AM EDT by KurtsKustom]
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: BTW, Kurt, that's really a pretty rifle. For those who're so inclined, may I recommend a reprint of Ned Roberts' "The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle" from Wolfe Publishing. It's an absolutely fascinating read.
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Thank you. It's basic. Finish is browning. My good friend Richard@Longhammock put the wood slab, lock kit, & octagon barrel blank in my hands many years ago and told me to come back with a rifle. He builds absolutely gorgeous ML rifles (many types), and they are barrel manufacturers as well. Inlaid silver, horn, and other very-niceties on some gorgeous wood. Beautiful stocks for modern (Mauser) rifles as well. He's a mountain man, and a dear friend. [img]kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/i/Misc/MyMlClose.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 9:28:23 AM EDT
Hey! I love my T/C in-line. You shoot what you like, you lazy bastard yourself. "End run around muzzleloader regs"?? Last time I checked, in-lines are legal in my state. I bet you [u]are[/u] wearin' a coonskin cap, making your own whiskey, and said the same thing about indoor plumbing - taking an end run around the outhouse, I suppose. [:D] Seriously, my .50 in-line is very accurate with the right load and is a fine weapon for deer hunting. You still load it from the business end, and only get ONE very loud and very smoky shot at your quarry. I can use percussion caps, 209 primers, or musket caps on my rifle, and I have not noticed any difference in performance between them. I use the 209s for convenience. Some of the newer .45 cal in-lines have very good ballistics and can extend your range a bit, I hear. I understand the purists who want to stay truly primitive and shoot flintlocks. I don't understand anyone who disdains fellow shooters' choice in firearms because it differs from their personal preferences. It's ALL GOOD.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 10:54:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 11:26:15 AM EDT
I've heard that you have to wear a stinky, sweat drenched buckskin outfit if you shoot a side hammer! Love my MK-85!
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 11:59:44 AM EDT
Thank you. It's basic. Finish is browning. My good friend Richard@Longhammock put the wood slab, lock kit, & octagon barrel blank in my hands many years ago and told me to come back with a rifle. He builds absolutely gorgeous ML rifles (many types), and they are barrel manufacturers as well. Inlaid silver, horn, and other very-niceties on some gorgeous wood. Beautiful stocks for modern (Mauser) rifles as well. He's a mountain man, and a dear friend.
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I had a Lyman Great Plains for shooting round balls and wished to hell I hadn't sold it. Fortunately they're still made, so I may get another in the future (don't have a lot of choices for a lefty). A good round ball rifle is always a joy to shoot with the good accuracy and mild recoil.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 12:02:05 PM EDT
I just got a replica 1858 Remington .44 six-gun. It's an 8" barreled New Army Target model. I plan on using it as my sidearm for muzzleloading season but have yet to shoot it. Here in lovely Michigan I had to get a purchase permit and register the front stuffer just like I did my 9mm. I guess they must have had a rash of drive-by round ballin in the projects [V]
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 12:17:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2002 12:18:55 PM EDT by Glock31]
I'm starting to love muzzleloader hunting way more than modern rifle. Around here, every backwoods inbred (yes, in KY, imagine that) with a rifle goes hunting during modern rifle season, and its starting to get kinda scary. Anywho, I use a Knight DISC In-Line and love it, but before that I had a Knight inline that used caps, and it never failed to ignite, so IMO the only real advantage to #209's is the convenience, and with speed loaders there is the real possiblity for a second shot. With all the modern stuff, one can be loaded and ready go in 8-10 seconds or so. Edited to add: Go with the .50!
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 12:24:34 PM EDT
so IMO the only real advantage to #209's is the convenience, and with speed loaders there is the real possiblity for a second shot. With all the modern stuff, one can be loaded and ready go in 8-10 seconds or so.
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You can load just as fast with a sidelock when speedloaders are used.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 12:59:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 1:10:25 PM EDT
M4Madness, If you still use your other front stuffers, try using clean shot. It cleans with water. I havn't used it myself yet but others tell me it's great. [url]http://www.cleanshot.com/[/url]
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 4:24:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: FWIW, I HATE inlines and all of this other horseshit people do to make an end run around state muzzleloader regulations. Lazy bastards. My 61-year-old Dad (that's 427 dog years to those who can use an abacus) kills a nice buck EVERY year with iron sights and one of those so-called shitty sidelock T/C Hawkens. One shot, iron sights. Why in the hell do the pups need a friggin' inline with the latest super-duper nuclear ignition system and the same scope setup as most police departments' sniper rifles? Sad.
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I hate it when I agree with this guy.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 4:25:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CactusJack: [b]if you ain't shootin a Flintlock, you ain't muzzle loadin....!!!!![/b] as was stated b4, all this new fangled bullshyt is for lazy people who can't really hack being a true blue muzzle stuffer...... [:D]
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I hate it when I agree with this guy, too.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 4:42:31 PM EDT
In my opinion, if you go benchrest shooting with an inline that you built from scratch in your basement workshop, that's great. Or, if you bought one to stash away thinking it's some sort of last-ditch survival arm that allows more flexibility in the ammo it will digest, that's OK too. But to buy one for muzzleloading hunting season, just to minutely inrease your chances of putting meat in the freezer, i.e. to try and compensate for your own lack of shooting skill, that sucks. Muzzleloading hunting seasons were set up as separate from regular hunting seasons to create a special time for people to get out with the old-time rifles and experience some of what our forefathers went through. These newfangled plastic-stocked, scope sighted Buck Rogers inlines are spoiling that. I certainly do not want them outlawed altogether. At this point, since so many fools have bought them, I think the states should divide their muzzleloading seasons into two parts and set aside the better part for traditional rifles only.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 4:50:45 PM EDT
Pennsylvania has a strictly primative season. You can only use flintlocks. Unfortunatly my Kentucky rifle was stolen so this season, now that I live in Michigan, I will be borrowing one of my father's inlines or his TC caplock.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 5:15:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2002 5:18:12 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 5:40:49 PM EDT
I hate it when I agree with this guy.
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You know you love me. Just admit it.
How does the fact that I use an inline spoil your fun during muzzleloading season? The state says I can use an inline so I do. If you want to use a traditional muzzleloader, that's great, but why try and poop on my fun? I'm on private land so it's not like your going to see my oh so evil black stocked stainless steel inline rifle anyway. I just want to get out in the woods for an extra week hunting because I like to hunt & if they start a blowgun season or speargun season or any other way to humanely take a deer I'll probably get one of those too. I'm not bothering you so why are you upset about how I hunt? Geez live and let live. By the way I haven't noticed that the old timey muzzle loader guys at my range are as a good a shot as me with any kind of gun. I'm out there a LOT more than they are practicing so don't get on your high horse about your shooting skills being superior because you don't like in lines. (it's kind of funny that the guy who started this thread didn't even want to go hunting-did anyone ever answer the poor guy's question?)
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Well, here's how I see it: Used to be black powder season here was an extra week for the hardcore guys. Not many people in the woods. Then you've got the schemers who come along and figure, "State law just says it has to load from the muzzle, and we're tired of missing out so we're going to shoot an inline." So then a few more people make it out into the woods. Then a group of them get together and lobby the State Wildlife Department for permission to use optical sights on their "muzzleloaders." Now we've got just as many people in the woods during BP season as during gun season. Where in the hell were you guys back fifteen, twenty, or even thirty years ago when BP hunting was in its infancy? Where was all of your support back then? It's usually the same guys who made fun of anyone "stupid enough" to own a BP rifle. You know, the fair weather BP "enthusiasts."
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 6:48:48 PM EDT
Jim_Dandy, I'm not sure where you are coming from. Every one I know, with the exception of myself, that hunts with black powder owns at least one inline smoke pole. These are not newbies. I personally have hunted with muzzle loaders (when I can take time off) for 22 years. My father and uncle bought theirs after they saw me take a deer at 120 yds with a .45 cal flintlock. They have now been in the sport for 20 years. You seem to have gone from them being "lazy asses" to being upset that you have to share the woods with them. Bet you hate it when out of state hunters come in also. The challenge is the one-shot kill and the fun is being in the woods. Do you get upset if they don't cook their kill over an open fire as well. I encourage everyone I can to get out and enjoy the outdoors. I don't understand why you think because they were not out there 30 years ago they have no right to be there now. Shooting is supposed to be a relaxing pastime... chill dude[8D] Not trying to start anything, just trying to figure out where all the animosity comes from. [:D]
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 9:19:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 9:28:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 9:39:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2002 10:06:52 PM EDT by BigGuns]
I want to try the new Savage that uses smokeless powder! That is supposed to really accurate, and at real ranges, too. If I were you, looking for a target shooter, I would have to go with a modern In-Line .45. Hands down, you can squeeze more accuracy at longer distances I really want a new bolt BP rifle, too! I use 209 primers on both of my rifles, a cheap-assed Cabela's Tracker, and a Traditions Buckhunter. Never had a problem with the other (#11, or Musket) primers, but I figure a little hotter means a little quicker, and that must be good. I don't usually use more than 100 grains, though, even after the upgrade and 150 grain max that came with it. 100 grains seems plenty to me. The RO at one range I go to gives me and my dad crap about bump firing our BP's, but we get them back with smokin poles! [8D] Good Luck, dude!
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 10:21:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aimless: How does the fact that I use an inline spoil your fun during muzzleloading season?
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How? By putting more people like you out in the woods for me to run into. People who apparently don't give a damn about muzzleloading, extra challenges, or history, and are just there because "The state says I can." If I wanted to go out on opening day with my muzzleloader and have the sun come up and see other hunters sitting around on every third tree stump, I could just hunt with my muzzleloader during the regular rifle season. The idea behind the muzzleloading season was that the hunters would have this additional handicap, and that those who did not wish to share equally in that handicap would stay home. That idea has been undermined by the inlines. No, it's not illegal, but it does seem somewhat unethical to me, and certainly disrespectful of those who originally made the effort to lobby and get the special season in the first place. It's kind of like "taking cuts" in a line of people waiting for something. Technically probably not illegal, but then you knew darn well what the purpose of having a line was; you just valued your own immediate easy gratification above your respect for others and above your respect for the unwritten mores of the group.
Geez live and let live.
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Did I not say I advocated keeping a season open to inlines? This "I ought to be able to use anything I want" mentality does not make sense to me. If you feel this way, then why have a muzzleloading season at all? Why not just have one big anything-goes season, where the "state says you can" use any legally owned firearm, bow, crossbow, phaser, etc. you want?
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 10:37:29 PM EDT
Maybe we should all ride horses, live in a tee-pee, and wipe our a$$es with leaves when we go BP hunting, too. I guess I can see your point, but I don't share it. There aren't that many *extra* hunters out where I go, that wouldn't be there *anyway*! That why all the BP management areas we hunt, have special, and daily quotas on how many hunters. Anyway, Go with an in-line, 209's, and a .45! Just to tweak Fuzzbean, find out where he hunts, and show up! Hee-hee! Don't forget your honkin NightForce scope, either! [8D] Flintlocks are fun, teach you to hold the sight picture longer. Side-locks are cool looking, and make you feel all pioneery inside when you shoot them, and you can wear leather clothes without causing a stir! With fringe, no less! And nobody messes with a guy who is wearing a possibles bag, and carrying a muzzle-loader. But for target shooting, and the last rifle they come to get in Kalifornia, get the Savage ML10!
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 5:55:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:
So I take it that you explain to all of the dear that you hunt why you use a cap instead of a flintlock??
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'Cause I get rained on when I hunt. That priming powder doesn't handle water very well. Looks like Kurt gets it and so does [b]CactusJack[/b].
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============================================= my friend, the best way to use your flintlock in the rain or wet weather is to seal the pan wyth Bear grease, or you can use cheap axel grease, after you prime the pan & close the stryker put a dab of grease on your finger & run it around the pan, you can seal it off absolutely water tite !! & continue your muzzle hunting in a hurricane....., most of the grease will be blown off wyth first firing, just redo it when ya reload, i have hunted in the rain & never had a missfire.......
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 7:20:30 AM EDT
Yes. The rifle Kurt has is beautiful. I've held that rifle. Now if Kurt can remember the last time he shot it, or the last time he went hunting with it, I'd be amazed. Fuzzbean. If you don't like hunting with other folks, then buy some land and hunt there. I don't get people that think public hunting land means that they get their own private little hunting area. I still don't see ANY difference in my in-line with NO optics to my side-lock, except the cleaning process is a whole lot easier. Different from a flint-lock? Yes. You know if you were a real BP hunter, you would have a matchlock, or a blunderbuss, as those were the original BP hunting weapons, here in America. BP snobs! Who woulda thunk it! BTW, do you guys have to wear blaze orange for your BP season? What's the biggest game you've taken BP-wise? Mines a 220lb Ferrule Pig, in Green Swamp WMA, near Lakeland, FL. I also got to shoot at a muzzleloader dove shoot about 5 years ago. What a blast! But the owner sold the land to pay for a nasty divorce the following year, bummer! I shot a *borrowed* shotgun. Was very different, but a whole lot of fun. Still, get the .45, and shoot out to 200+ yards. [8D]
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 10:01:32 AM EDT
BigGuns, The largest game I have taken with a front stuffer is a 180 lb white tail. I used a .45 cal flintlock with a round ball. The eight point was taken on my grandfather's farm in central Pennsylvania. I have yet to bag any large game since moving to Michigan and unfortunately find very little time to hunt. My father, who also lives in Michigan, is newly retired so from now on I will make it a point to spend time with him on the fall hunts like he did with me when I was young. Originally posted by DrFrige: [b]There was another discussion board I was on and MANY and I do mean MANY newcomers came to visit. Well with all the infighting that was going on, I know for a fact that it turned off the newcomers. Sad. Here it is we can teach and let our numbers grow but our knowledge cannot be handed down because there were BIG FAT EGOS in the way. We are a solid group here... GROUP HUG!!!!!!!!![/b] I agree. In the imortal words of Rodney King " c... c... can't we all just get along"[argue] I'm ok with the group hug... just watch your hands. [beer]
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 10:37:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By out-a-ammo: BigGuns, The largest game I have taken with a front stuffer is a 180 lb white tail. I used a .45 cal flintlock with a round ball. The eight point was taken on my grandfather's farm in central Pennsylvania. I have yet to bag any large game since moving to Michigan and unfortunately find very little time to hunt. My father, who also lives in Michigan, is newly retired so from now on I will make it a point to spend time with him on the fall hunts like he did with me when I was young. [beer]
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I think the last two deer I shot down Here would just beat the weight of yours when combined! Going to GA, and AL this year, though. My brothers kid hunts deer with his AR15 in GA, and there is no magazine limit rule, there, so he has 20 rounders! Of course he's only ten!
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 10:44:42 AM EDT
If you're using an in-line with optics to hunt why not just go out and hunt with it during the regular season?
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 12:13:37 PM EDT
Originally posted by BigGuns: [b]I think the last two deer I shot down Here would just beat the weight of yours when combined! Going to GA, and AL this year, though. My brothers kid hunts deer with his AR15 in GA, and there is no magazine limit rule, there, so he has 20 rounders! Of course he's only ten![/b] Yea, I've heard that you guys have some small deer down there, some not much bigger than dogs. There is a guy up here that took a 263 pounder with a bow. I live in the lower third of the state, so I cannot hunt with a centerfire rifle unless I go up north. I think during the regular gun season I will use an inline BP and carry my .44 mag (7-1/2" barrelled Ruger Super Blackhawk with a 40mm Red Dot sight). During muzzle loader season I will use the inline and carry my 1858 New Army as a sidearm.Just got the 1858 and can't wait to shoot it!![bounce] I would love to come down your way some time and hunt those small deer in the brush. It would also be nice to hunt deer when it's not 25 degrees outside![8D]
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 12:58:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 11:19:15 PM EDT
The hot item is the Magnum 45 cals. They shoot flatter and retain energy better than most 50 cals. BigGuns, your nephew better check the hunting regs because there is a 5 round limit in Georgia.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 8:10:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GeorgiaCop: The hot item is the Magnum 45 cals. They shoot flatter and retain energy better than most 50 cals. BigGuns, your nephew better check the hunting regs because there is a 5 round limit in Georgia.
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Yea, we have that same rule here in Michigan. Not sure of its purpose, unless it is to stop you from hunting with a mini-gun.[:D] The regs also say that in the shotgun zone it is legal for me to hunt with my 9mm. I don't think I'd want to use the 9mm against a deer unless we were face to face arguing over a spot to take a sh!t in the woods!
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