I just recently got an Essential Arms lower.
So, I did a search here on it to learn more about it.
In many of the threads, there was discussion about EA (Who went out of buisness before the 1994 AW ban) never selling complete rifles, only lowers. Needless to say, this generated some pretty interesting "Pre Ban" and "Post Ban" discussion.

Anyway, it only now dawned on me how chicken shit many of you really are.

"IF YOU PUT A FLASH HIDER ON IT, YOU ARE GOING TO JAIL!! JAIL~!! BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! JAIL! BAAAHHHHHHH!"

So, I often wonder why it is that the same people who think they will actually "do something about it" when your AR's are made totally illegal are the same people too afraid to put a telestock on their gun.

It is the most moronic, unenforcable law ever drafted...

But what is more moronic is why gun owners believe it was written as it was.

See, retards, they didn't ban "flash-hiders and bayonet lugs...".
They wanted to ban the GUNS that had those features without disturbing more innane semi-auto's.
Of course it's common sense in hindsight that "all they had to to was take off the flash hider and the gun would be legal..."
But they weren't thinking that way. They were thinking "We want to ban AR15's. So, if we ban all guns with pistol grips, bayonet lugs, and flash hiders, that will take care of AR15's, since they have those features..."

Same with US parts loopholes...

Those laws were a direct attempt to stop importation of such weapons, and make them impossible to get for you and me.
They weren't meant to get your flash hiders.
So, I don't really understand why you people are so jubilant in helping the ATF do their job when a new gun owner or a new Pre-Ban owner  asks a simple question.

I mean, C'MON!
Tell them, "It's against the law to put a flash hider on a post-ban AR..."
But don't enthusiasticallty go into the whole moronic diatribe.
There has been, to my knowledge of gun laws and my research, 4 FEDERAL prosecutions of such a nature...
If you refrence the number of gun owners into a subdemographic of AR15 owners,
and then do a ratio of the amount of actual prosecutions,
you will see the odds are in your favor to do whatever the hell you want with your cosmetic features.
Now, I understand many of you don't want to, "just to be on the safe side..."
That's OK. I respect a mans personal choice.
But FOR CHRISTS SAKE please stop being so quick to up and point a finger at someone who isn't as beaten down as you are when it comes to totally moronic laws.

dont hold back, tell us how you really feel.

you tell'em

To an extent I'd agree, if the penalties for violation were even remotely reasonable -- and/or if, say, the FBI or the federal marshalls, or your local cops, were the agency you had to fear.

But for violations of that nature, you'd be dealing with the BATF, and who knows what the fuck they'll do. You can't trust them to just arrest you -- they've got a nasty track record of burning down people's homes and murdering people's wives and children for, at root, similarly minor violations.

Er, dude.
You say that the ATF is the agency that you really have to fear as opposed to the local cops... I totally agree.
But what are the odds of you getting pulled over on a traffic stop by an ATF agent, the moment you happen yo be carrying a post ban gun with a flash hider...
Hypothetically speaking, I have been pulled over with post ban guns choc full of Pre-ban features. Cop says "Cool man... Nice gun.." which usually leads to a conversation about guns. Never any talk about 922r...

Of course, what I just said was all a lie [;)]

It is only enforcable on the local level, and since the feddies are the only ones who would prosecute it, it is pretty much unenforcable/

Dude, did you say, like "total" cowards???

Like, totally.

Like, ya know?????

Nevermind.

As a law student and an armchair firearms lawyer, I have to say that I TOTALLY AGREE WITH MCUZI.

I've ranted about the same thing before.  What pisses me off most is that the PEOPLE that the govt. were trying to regulate, the "gun nuts" who actually follow firearms laws and try to find loopholes, etc., are the ones who will stay totally legal, whereas there are thousands of non-compliant guns in the hands of "ordinary people" who believe (wrongly) that they are law-abiding citizens, and who weren't the focus of the passage of the laws anyway.  How many times have I been to the local shooting range and said to someone, "nice preban" and they've answered, "whats a preban?"  Turns out the guy saw a folding stock at a gunshow and it fit his gun so he bought it, he doesn't know anything about 18 USC 922(v) and doesn't care either.  But he's not as much of a "gun nut" or a threat to the government or whatever as I am, the guy who is carefully counting out American made parts in his imported receiver and has written a long letter to Bushmaster asking for confirmation that his rifle left the factory as a complete gun, etc.

Who did the government mean to regulate?  US.  If, God forbid, they ever actually enforce these laws, who will get hurt?  Billy Bob and Joe Shmoe, who don't even own a bayonet to put on the gun that will get them 10 years in prison.

All my stuff is legal.  Most of it is even registered.  I try to explain gun laws as best I can to people who want to learn them.  But in my professional opinion as a student of law,

MOLON LABE!

[img]http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/MolonLabe/smallfal2.jpg[/img]

"But you'll go to Club Fed and Be Bubba's Soap Boy!" ad nauseum. Yup, that hue and cry has been written all too often. Shit, the Socialists have already won, with that mindset.

McUzi, you're not too bad for a fat boy.

Oh, but I disagree with McUZI when it comes to Garandman.

Damn buddy, take some anger management classes or go to the range and pop off some rounds or SOMETHING.  You are a high-strung man right now, I don't know why, but we are all on the same team here, don't forget that.

Ok good point, now go put that flash hider on your preban. Heck I wanted to put a suppressor on my postban, but losing my license  (and income) for a felony doesn't seem to be worth the effort or trouble.

Also have you ever been in Jail, I have @ 14 (shot someone with a gun, go figure) and its sucks, don't ever want to go there again.

I don't think the members here are yeller, I believe they want to give sound advice on the safe side[;)]

 

Oopps. Should put a smiley on my original post.

[Insert posthumous smiley here] [:D]

FWIW, for the purposes of this board, and the Feds / ATF / FBI listening, I always obey the law.

Always.

Always . Always. Always.

Did I mention "always?"


Stated another way, if I were gonna break the law (which I ALWAYS obey) I would NOT brag about it on an interent forum, to which I am CERTAIN the Feds follow religiously. (wave "Hi" to the Feds. "Hi Fed snitches." )

But that's just me - a guy who ALWAYS obeys the law.

Always.

Just goes to show you that only law abiding people will obey BS laws as these. I have both Pre & post ban stuff. Do I occaisionaly have an illegal config? Shit yes. Do I point out others doing the same thing? Hell no. Few things are as annoying as seeing a guy post a pic of his new toy and then reading all the sniveling posts that follow. "You have a bayo lug on your post ban Rock River lower". Just shut up about it. If you really think the dude is goig to get in trouble, then e-mail him.

All my ARs are pre-bans and the three 'shorty' ARs I have, I put regular A-1 or A-2 stocks on them!

I have never liked the telescoping stocks. They are just 'too collapsable' if you ask me![:D]

Eric The(SoMuchForTelescopingStocks)Hun[>]:)]

I agree with you McUzi, but why did you spend the extra $400-$700 on a preban lower if you don't care about the bullshit laws?

Of course, you could have paid $95 for it just like a postban I suppose.

BTW, the gyro rocket cartridge looks good in my bullet collection!


Balming

The problem isn't the odds of getting arrested.  It's the severe consequences when it does happen.  A lottery is the same sort of odds from an opposite point of view.  The odds of winning are very slim, but when you do win, you win big.  Many people, even when knowing that on average you get less out of it than you put in, still play.  Many people (the people who are good at math[:)]) don't play.z

Who will they hurt?  Some poor dumb shmuck like Miller, who didn't know about some obscure law called the 1934 Firearms Control Act and sawed off his shotgun w/out paying a tax.  (US -vs- Miller)

Amen to that dude.
I am actually taking the telestock OFF this one to put on an A2, and a run of the mill, white bread 20" upper.

I got it in a trade for $400 total value. I couldn't pass it up for that price, considering what I could sell if for.

Bayo lug? Take it or leave it.  I like it in the interest of accuracy in appearance.

Flash Hider?  It's not the flash hider that is actually illegal, but the threaded muzzle.  If the flash hider is actually welded or pinned on, then the bbl is no longer considered threaded.

Telestock?  I'm 6'3", my wife is 5'2".  Telestock comes in handy when she wants to shoot my AR.

For my opinions on this otherwise, refer to another thread (a couple days ago, I don't exactly recall which) where we discussed the difference between "malum in se" and "malum prohibitum" in law.

In closing, remember this - "A man obeys only the laws he makes for himself."

FFZ

Nope. The Crime Bill specifically said

"A Flash Hider, or a threaded barrel designed to accomidate a flash hider..."

The Flash Hider istelf is named in the law.

No Comment.

Sgtar15

Your opinion about my decisions regarding whether or not to follow a law are irrelevant, and do not make me a coward.

If you are such a Second Amendment Crusader, why not skip the whole preban/postban spectacle and go with an "illegal" full auto?

We all know that the Second Amendment prohibits all that NFA nonsense, right?

Put another way, why do YOU get to decide I'm a coward for following THIS law and it's plain meaning, yet you SHEEPISHLY follow the NFA and it's ilk?

Whose ox is getting gored?  I've got a weapon that functions EXACTLY like a preban, makes substantially more Muzzleflash, even during the day, and I can't mount a bayonet.

I can live with that.

Wups - need to read 18USC44 again.  I've been busy with other research, and had a stupid moment...

Interesting question for all of you - how many of you have broken a law (stupid or not) that you didn't find out until later?  Here's a f'rinstance -

As some of you here probably recall, I don't go anywhere without a blade in my pocket - usually my Benchmade/Emerson CQC7B (LH.)  I've carried some sort of pocketknife everyday since I was five years old - my kid sister is still carrying my first pocketknife.

I deal with the Postal People rather frequently, and spend a lot of time in the local Postal People Office.  My knife saw a lot of use there - sometimes loaned across the counter to the Postal People themselves.

I find out later that is it actually a FELONY to carry a knife with a blade longer than an inch or so (I think boxcutters are still legal) into the post office.  Huh?  Even the Postal People themselves don't seem to know this one - they are always happy when they are looking for a blade and I had one to hand them!

I don't recall the cite for the law, but can probably find it with a little effort.  It may or may not have been part of 18USC Part 1, but I am not entire sure...

FFZ

I agree with McUZI's sentiments, and with Garandman's pragmatism.  


It's sad to the point of amusement that the very people who constitute the largest threat to a totalitarian government (most members of this board) fall all over themselves to be in compliance with the laws that the government is passing in order to promote the growth of its authority.  

For example, it is illegal to import standard capacity magazines into the PRK.  Someone I know recently flew to the midwest to visit some relatives (just so we're clear, I have no relatives in the midwest), and decided to bring back some standard capacity magazines for a rifle.  I can't count the number of times I've seen people on this board mention "It's an unenforceable law, but the absolute last thing you should do is break it!   Think of the penalties!"  This person I know isn't a gun nut, he just decided he wanted some bigger magazines than the abortions one can buy here.

He put them in his carry-on, and flew back with them.  The screeners even examined them, pushed the followers down, etc. and let him pass.

As long as we are willing to help the government screw us in order to not experience any discomfort, it will win.  No "revolution" (for lack of a less inflammatory term) has ever been accomplished with the participants maintaining the status quo of their comfortable lives.  (Note to monitoring fed agencies:  I am in no way supportive of any type of action against our government.  I love our government!  I am a good citizen!)

But, I think a lot of what's said here is simply people erring on the side of caution.  After all, it is known that a variety of .gov types are monitoring this site, and I've read it suggested that some active posting members are actually undercover feds (would surprise me zero if true), so people are wary of advocating "illegal" (as if violating obviously unconstitutional laws is a crime) actions less they bear some personal burden of responsibility.

I chalk it up as a victory to the socialists.  Our litigious society has made people so scared that they are afraid to truly use their 1st amendment rights less they be held accountable for them.  

That's what people scared into compliance usually come back with...
"Well, what about illegal Full-Auto!!!"...

The difference is, I can go shoot my AR at a range without raising so much as an eyebrow.
I can't do that with a M16 on full.

However, MANY MANY MANY people do own such weapons, and just keep it quiet.
No where in this thread did I say
"OK! EVERYONE WHO HAS PRE-BAN FEATURES MUST SAY SO HERE, OR YOU ARE A COWARD..."

I will admit, but then again, I don't care.

The point I was making is that how can we expect gun owners to stand up for anything of any real conciquence when they aren't even willing to stand up to a law that is practically unenforcable...

Do you have any idea how much money it costs to keep a person in prison, and the bennies, collage education etc. Now who has ever heard of anyone, no let me rephrase that, who has  proof of anyone one going to prison, for messing with a post ban, Heck, I called the BATF once to report an illegal silencer and was told handle it locally, they pretty much blew me off, it was my job then, now I am out  of it, retired, out there with the rest of the moes, you see we live in a classed society, the rich and the rest of us. I do not know of a single prosecution for possession of a  restricted magazine, and if there is one, it is a bad guy they could get no other way, like tax evasion. This whole thing is a big scare tactic in my opinion. The feds could care less about a post ban with a collapsible stock if anyone has a different take please let me know. PS I'm sure the feds are in on this forum and I don't care cause I don't do anything illegal , unless speaking is illegal??????????

I continually agree with those who rant against the "your going to jail!" crowd.  Then I advise everyone not to do it.   What's the point?  The law is the law (for now); don't hate those who understand it.  If you want to argue with the paranoid about "bubba", go ahead, but don't butt heads with those of us who simply relay what the law is (it's plain meaning anyway).

It would be irresponsible for me as a practicing attorney to tell a client/friend/collegue, "go ahead, break the law, you won't get caught!"  So I never will.  On the other hand, I do agree that the law is silly and that, in my experience, most AUSAs could care less about prosecuting them.  I have seen them prosecuted, however, in the context of huge drug conspiracy cases where the defendants were ACTUAL criminals committing huge crimes.  

But, it is the law and I will stay legall; not because I'm afraid of "Bubba", but because it's not worth the littel risk that does exist.   Having a bayo lug and a f/h on my AR is not up there on my priority list anyway.

I attended a VERY strict college - one where you could get kicked out for taking a girl off campus to Macdonalds without permission. And other stuff like that.

Most everyone I knew that got kicked out GOT kicked out because they went and bragged to someone about their misdeeds.

Do what you gotta do, but keep it to yerself.

NO DOUBT GCA 1968, 1934, 1994 etc etc are unConstitutional laws. A law which violates the Constitution is no law at all. (some chief justice said that)

But to brag about violating GCA 1934 etc is just plain stupid. You should get locked up for stupidity, if nothing else.

Do what you gotta do, but keep it to yourself.

garand(AGuyWhoAlwaysObeysTheLaw)man

Raise your hand if you are a .gov infiltrator or agent of some sort, watching this list for subversives and scofflaws.

Ok... 1, 2, 3, 4... ok, thanks.

I think that anyone who is going to be breaking those laws will probably not be shouting it from the rooftops here, but simply quietly violating it.

Not me, I'm a coward.

We are on the same page here, and I don't know the exact circumstances of your situation, but let me ask you.

[b][i]WHY[/b][/i] did you report this person?
What compelled you to turn a person to lose their right to own a gun, for an item that is sold over the counter like a sling in much of Europe...

This is the very mindset I am talking about, even though you seem to be on the same page...
[?][?]

You're all busted! That's right, under arrest.
On second thought...
Send your all weapons to me and I'll forget this
entire incident.

oops! Hey, who's the wise guy that put the "" reply
w/ quote so damn close to the edit button?!?#$

I'd venture to say you're correct.

HOWEVER, that's NOT going to be a defense if somebody gets popped.  THAT person is going to jail, make that prison, whatever it costs society.

I look at it using a cost benefit analysis.

What are the benefeits to me by me being the test case?  I get a flash hider and bayo lug, I hate telestocks.

Our "cause" won't be benefeited in the least if I get popped.  Media will report a "gun whacko" with an arsenal and thousands of rounds of ammo off the streets.

NOBODY will appreciate (meaning understand) that the only thing they get to stick is an illegal preban.  I'll just be another sicko off the streets.

Lets now talk costs:  My professional license is gone, my house lost, my daughter and wife will do without my company for whatever the term is, I'll never be able to own any firearm again, I may just get boofed in prison, stop me when I've said enough.

I know where you are coming from, and I have posed the question here.

How do "we" know when it's "time?"

React too soon, you're just another whacko, react too late and you are incapable of meaningful reaction.

That's the REAL question here.  Do YOU think this is worth REAL resistance, or are we not there yet?

I got to say I'm with you a bayo lug ,come on, those are obsolete, if I had to do close in work, I would go to a pistol.

I've owned my prebans since before they were prebans.

They sit in the safe right next to a post and an AR10 that is definitely a post.

I would like to reconfigure a preban AR10 upper (and lower).

Would that be too kuhl or what!

Edited to ask where do you think I could get the parts?  Everything but the tele-stock is standard AR-15, correct?  

Yea, that and I don't plan on doing any "close in work" any time soon.

Ok that's it! I'm suppressing my postban, please e-mail me direct if you have one, so we can keep the purchase quite, also do you accept PayPal.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

He said 'boofed'!

I haven't heard that since elementary school!

One problem is that people just don't know what "discreet" means anymore.  
They think that you have to have a hat and a T-Shirt, emblazoned with logos, for every piece of hardware they own.
You'd be surprised what you'd find hidden away in many an oldtimer's safe/attic/basement...

haha, as an aside that relates to the telescoping/non-telescoping stock discussion, I recently successfully used the telescoping stock on my Fab-10 (It sucks, but it's legal, and that's what counts.  I am a good citizen) to somehow get through to my mom and illustrate the insanity of most gun control laws.  

Anyone who knows her would understand what a feat that was.  She's a typical Democrat voter who lacks the capability to critically analyze issues and assign the correct importance to various arguments.  She works in the school system and basically votes for whoever her union's voting guide tells her to vote for.  She also admitted to me that sometimes she votes for people based on whose name she likes better if she hasn't heard of either candidate.

I started off by telling her to pretend the Fab-10 was a real "evil" scary looking black gun, and made after 1994.

Then I collapsed the stock and told her "If the stock was fixed at this length, it would be legal."  

I extended the stock.  "If the stock was fixed at this length, it would be legal.  But because it slides back and forth like this, if it were on a gun made after 1994 that could take detachable magazines, it would be EVIL AND SCARY!"  

I also successfully demonstrated the lunacy of the bayonet lug.

A small victory.

I should make her go shooting with me some time.

She grew up shooting, was in the army, but somehow managed to end up disliking guns as an adult.

Because the guy was a nut case, and I felt it was problem that was going to develop into a big clusterfu**, down the road, so I "tried" to report him. But I was wrong it never turned into anything and I never did follow up on it. And to this day to my knowledge he still has it and has never been a problem.

I use the same approach with newbies. I explain"If this was a gun made after 1994...."


[slide stock out]"....it would be legal"
[slide stock in] "...it would be illegal
[slide stock out]"...legal"
[slide stock in]"....illegal"
[slide stock out]"...legal"
[slide stock in]"....illegal"


then I say "stupid, eh????"

God love ya', McUzi!  I'm proud to share virtual address space with a man with an attitude like that.

McUzi is talking about the ridiculous, largely unenforcable FEDERAL laws.  Think of how much more oppressed I ought to be living under the Iron Fist of the Caliban.

Am I truly oppressed?  Are they ruining my life by not letting me legally build another normal AR-15?  HELL NO!  I still feel like I can do any damn thing I please in my home, my castle.  They're NOT going to come into my garage and pick through my metal stock and mechanical drawings looking for "constructive intent".  They're not going to dig up my entire property with metal detectors and backhoes searching for buried go-fast parts.

But I take only Caliban-legal rifles to the range.  I believe in quietly and insidiously subverting the law, not in making myself into a sacrificial lamb for the cause.  I do as I please and ignore the idiots as much as possible without exposing myself to unnecessary danger.

I've read The Art of War.  I don't understand people like the medical marijuana users who deliberately get themselves busted in some kind of pointless public civil disobedience instead of just quietly lighting up a "hooter" when they feel like it.

I feel - empowered.  Sorry, I hate that liberal word.  But that's how I feel.

Right on, McUzi.

Ahh McUzi the dip that supports banning the 1911's because he doesnt like them.