Posted: 3/28/2012 11:29:47 PM EDT
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Interesting existential dilemma posed by that movie.......
Would you do in that situation? |
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'Esplain yourself to those of us who don't know what you're talking about.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_7b3kzWzg8So... would I torture someone for information about bombs? |
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'Esplain yourself to those of us who don't know what you're talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_7b3kzWzg8So... would I torture someone for information about bombs? There is a bit more to it than that. You may want to exit this discussion if you do ever plan to see it because it will ruin it for you. |
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'Esplain yourself to those of us who don't know what you're talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_7b3kzWzg8So... would I torture someone for information about bombs? There is a bit more to it than that. You may want to exit this discussion if you do ever plan to see it because it will ruin it for you. Yeap. No spoilers in this thread. |
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'Esplain yourself to those of us who don't know what you're talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_7b3kzWzg8So... would I torture someone for information about bombs? There is a bit more to it than that. You may want to exit this discussion if you do ever plan to see it because it will ruin it for you. Knowing spoilers doesn't ruin movies for me, so I don't care either way. |
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'Esplain yourself to those of us who don't know what you're talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_7b3kzWzg8So... would I torture someone for information about bombs? There is a bit more to it than that. You may want to exit this discussion if you do ever plan to see it because it will ruin it for you. Knowing spoilers doesn't ruin movies for me, so I don't care either way. Then why even jump in? |
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Well, since we can't use truth serum any more.......find some legal way to get him to talk.
And if that doesn't work? Oh, well, C'est La Vie!........there are costs with being the good guys, but we are, after all, the good guys. Of course, on the other side of the coin, if there were detonations, the retaliation would be, to put it mildly, brutal. _______________________________________________________________________________________ ("Everyone dies, Captain; it's just a question of win."––Rasmussen, (w,stte), ST:TNG, "A Matter of Time") |
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Well, since we can't use truth serum any more.......find some legal way to get him to talk. And if that doesn't work? Oh, well, C'est La Vie!........there are costs with being the good guys, but we are, after all, the good guys. Of course, on the other side of the coin, if there were detonations, the retaliation would be, to put it mildly, brutal. _______________________________________________________________________________________ ("Everyone dies, Captain; it's just a question of win."––Rasmussen, (w,stte), ST:TNG, "A Matter of Time") Wait.... we aren't allowed to use sodium pentathol anymore? |
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'Esplain yourself to those of us who don't know what you're talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_7b3kzWzg8So... would I torture someone for information about bombs? There is a bit more to it than that. You may want to exit this discussion if you do ever plan to see it because it will ruin it for you. Knowing spoilers doesn't ruin movies for me, so I don't care either way. I sent you a PM with the jest of the end plot, read at your own discretion but I didn't want to ruin it for anyone else. |
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'Esplain yourself to those of us who don't know what you're talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_7b3kzWzg8So... would I torture someone for information about bombs? There is a bit more to it than that. You may want to exit this discussion if you do ever plan to see it because it will ruin it for you. Knowing spoilers doesn't ruin movies for me, so I don't care either way. Then why even jump in? Because you said it was an "Interesting existential dilemma". I like interesting existential dilemmas. I don't care if I know the ending to a movie or not, I generally enjoy it the same either way. |
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'Esplain yourself to those of us who don't know what you're talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_7b3kzWzg8So... would I torture someone for information about bombs? There is a bit more to it than that. You may want to exit this discussion if you do ever plan to see it because it will ruin it for you. Knowing spoilers doesn't ruin movies for me, so I don't care either way. Then why even jump in? Because you said it was an "Interesting existential dilemma". I like interesting existential dilemmas. I don't care if I know the ending to a movie or not, I generally enjoy it the same either way. Then I would highly recommend seeing this move. You sound like you'd really be into it. |
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Well, since we can't use truth serum any more.......find some legal way to get him to talk. And if that doesn't work? Oh, well, C'est La Vie!........there are costs with being the good guys, but we are, after all, the good guys. Of course, on the other side of the coin, if there were detonations, the retaliation would be, to put it mildly, brutal. Wait.... we aren't allowed to use sodium pentathol anymore? There are a lot of references that relate truth serum to torture these days. Pity. ____________________________________________________________________________________ ("What does the authenticator do?"––Armando looking at the strange device over his head "Oh, it merely makes people tell the truth."––Chief Inspector Kolp, (w,stte), "Conquest of the Planet of the Apes") |
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'Esplain yourself to those of us who don't know what you're talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_7b3kzWzg8So... would I torture someone for information about bombs? There is a bit more to it than that. You may want to exit this discussion if you do ever plan to see it because it will ruin it for you. Knowing spoilers doesn't ruin movies for me, so I don't care either way. Then why even jump in? Because you said it was an "Interesting existential dilemma". I like interesting existential dilemmas. I don't care if I know the ending to a movie or not, I generally enjoy it the same either way. Then I would highly recommend seeing this move. You sound like you'd really be into it. I shall look into it. |
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Something else to consider.
I haven't seen the movie but I know the gist of it; but while one is there working with the suspect, don't you think that your forces are going to be working like hell trying to find these devices, working like this asset (the prisoner) wasn't available? Whatever they might say in the movie to eliminate that possibility doesn't change the point that people on those forces are going to be working like hell to find those devices. Giving up is not an option to them. So with that in mind, you and your prisoner is not the only answer available. _______________________________________________________________________________ ("We can beam aboard and stop it!"––Kirk about the Genesis Device counting down to detonation "You can't.....,"––David, (w,stte), "ST II:TWOK") |
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Something else to consider. I haven't seen the movie but I know the gist of it; but while one is there working with the suspect, don't you think that your forces are going to be working like hell trying to find these devices, working like this asset (the prisoner) wasn't available? Whatever they might say in the movie to eliminate that possibility doesn't change the point that people on those forces are going to be working like hell to find those devices. Giving up is not an option to them. So with that in mind, you and your prisoner is not the only answer available. _______________________________________________________________________________ ("We can beam aboard and stop it!"––Kirk about the Genesis Device counting down to detonation "You can't.....,"––David, (w,stte), "ST II:TWOK") There was a lot of people looking for them. |
| if I had all his experience to reason what he suspected. I'd be on the fence. at one hand doing what is necessary makes you a monster but makes you a patriot. if you dont well lots of people die. In the end I think I'd do it. I know hell would have a spot reserved for me but it'd be worth it |
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if I had all his experience to reason what he suspected. I'd be on the fence. at one hand doing what is necessary makes you a monster but makes you a patriot. if you dont well lots of people die. In the end I think I'd do it. I know hell would have a spot reserved for me but it'd be worth it Well, here's another way to look at it. Think of all those people you might save.........who voted for the guy you didn't like, who are do nothings, sucking on the government teat, who won't be grateful next month for your sacrifice. ______________________________________________________________________________________ ("The satellite is at present over... Kansas. Well, if we destroy Kansas the world may not hear about it for years. Perhaps New York, with all that smut and traffic... might give them a chance for a fresh start. Washington, DC. Perfect. Since we have not heard from them, *they* will hear from us."––Blofeld, (w,stte), "Diamonds are Forever") |
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.............................. There are a lot of references that relate truth serum to torture these days. Pity. ____________________________________________________________________________________ ("What does the authenticator do?"––Armando looking at the strange device over his head "Oh, it merely makes people tell the truth."––Chief Inspector Kolp, (w,stte), "Conquest of the Planet of the Apes") And if they tortured him with truth serum they wouldn't need to spend 90 minutes beating the crap out of him. Popcorn sales would plummet. |
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if I had all his experience to reason what he suspected. I'd be on the fence. at one hand doing what is necessary makes you a monster but makes you a patriot. if you dont well lots of people die. In the end I think I'd do it. I know hell would have a spot reserved for me but it'd be worth it Well, here's another way to look at it. Think of all those people you might save.........who voted for the guy you didn't like, who are do nothings, sucking on the government teat, who won't be grateful next month for your sacrifice. ______________________________________________________________________________________ ("The satellite is at present over... Kansas. Well, if we destroy Kansas the world may not hear about it for years. Perhaps New York, with all that smut and traffic... might give them a chance for a fresh start. Washington, DC. Perfect. Since we have not heard from them, *they* will hear from us."––Blofeld, (w,stte), "Diamonds are Forever") That's one of the most terrible things I've ever heard you say. It's like being glad 3,000 New Yorkers were killed in 9/11 and not 3,000 rural folks because some of those New Yorkers voted for one guy or another. They're still Americans, and they're still ignorant of the threats, they're still innocent, and they're still the people you are charged with protecting. My personal approach to the situation would be staging us beating his wife and kids and a mock execution, but none of them would actually be hurt. I'd just do my best to make the bad guy think it was real and that I was willing to actually do it. |
| I haven't seen the movie. It is a nasty bit of mind warping business, but I don't see the moral dilemma of causing a terrorist a lot of pain so millions of innocents don't suffer. Although in the real world, knowing you have the right suspect is a very real moral dilemma. |
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Reading the wikipedia entry, Im trying to figure out what was "unthinkable"... You need to see the movie. Saying the moral dilemma presented by the movie is simply whether one would torture another human being in order to ascertain the location of a WMD (or to save a greater quantity of lives) really misses the point. That answer is easy. Without giving away spoilers, the dilemma actually presented raises interesting questions about how far the "good guys" or those that believe they are in the moral right can go and still be morally justified in what they are doing. Is the unthinkable thing that Sam Jackson wanted to do really any different than firing bombing cities in WWII or dropping the bomb on Nagasaki/Hiroshima? Probably not in the end as innocents are involved either way. But it certainly is more personal, intentional, and manipulative. All those descriptors certainly make it feel more "wrong." Best movie I have seen in a long, long time and I recommend it to everyone when the topic of movies comes up. It really gave me great pause. |
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if I had all his experience to reason what he suspected. I'd be on the fence. at one hand doing what is necessary makes you a monster but makes you a patriot. if you dont well lots of people die. In the end I think I'd do it. I know hell would have a spot reserved for me but it'd be worth it Well, here's another way to look at it. Think of all those people you might save.........who voted for the guy you didn't like, who are do nothings, sucking on the government teat, who won't be grateful next month for your sacrifice. ______________________________________________________________________________________ ("The satellite is at present over... Kansas. Well, if we destroy Kansas the world may not hear about it for years. Perhaps New York, with all that smut and traffic... might give them a chance for a fresh start. Washington, DC. Perfect. Since we have not heard from them, *they* will hear from us."––Blofeld, (w,stte), "Diamonds are Forever") That's one of the most terrible things I've ever heard you say. It's like being glad 3,000 New Yorkers were killed in 9/11 and not 3,000 rural folks because some of those New Yorkers voted for one guy or another. They're still Americans, and they're still ignorant of the threats, they're still innocent, and they're still the people you are charged with protecting. My personal approach to the situation would be staging us beating his wife and kids and a mock execution, but none of them would actually be hurt. I'd just do my best to make the bad guy think it was real and that I was willing to actually do it. Well, it was said partially in jest.....partially. The thing is that I won't violate the Constitution and torture him no matter how many million might die. If it comes to such things, such as the very fabric of one's country or an essentially stragetic advanatage such as ULTRA or even human hostages, one accepts that sometimes, people have to die. Now, I have not seen the movie and don't intend to ever see it for a couple of reasons, so I can't say what I might do......but making people believe things that are not true has been part of the business I've been in, so I might come up with something. Finally, one other point to consider. Say you are there to get answers and you are given clearance to use any method you see fit........and say after you do, it becomes known to the world that the US did such. What possibly makes anyone think in this world that the TPTB wouldn't sacrifice you in a second? Wouldn't leave you holding the bag? ______________________________________________________________________ ("We won't attack there; it is guarded by a Cardessian unit."––senior old guard "If that is the way you fight, then you might as well give up right now. The second the Dominion figures out that you won't attack where your people are, they will put your people at all targets as hostages."––Kira, trying to teach by the book soldiers how to fight a resistance war, (w,stte), "DS 9") |
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=snip= Finally, one other point to consider. Say you are there to get answers and you are given clearance to use any method you see fit........and say after you do, it becomes known to the world that the US did such. What possibly makes anyone think in this world that the TPTB wouldn't sacrifice you in a second? Wouldn't leave you holding the bag? =snip= Things like this happen all the time in the Government. Look at the waterboarding issue, Fast&Furious, and so on and so forth... it literally happens all the time, but not always with the consequences that one would expect.... |