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Posted: 7/3/2002 9:32:22 AM EDT
I just got the July issue of the [i]American Rifleman[/i] and was reading Wayne LaPierre's "Standing Guard" column, about the so-called "Gun Show Loophole." While I generally agree with what he's saying, I notice 2 or 3 times he refers to private sales or trades of firearms between non-dealers as "commerce." Now, most federal gun control laws get their fig leaf of constitutionality from the "Commerce Clause" of the U.S. Constitution, which empowers congress to regulate interstate business activities. So, as they try to regulate or ban the private sale of firearms between non-dealers, there is nothing the anti-gunners would LOVE better than to convince the public that such sales are somehow a "commercial" activity, and thus fair game for federal regulation. And here our very own buddy Wayne is handing them exactly what they want. There is nothing commercial about the private sale of personal firearms between non-dealers, where profit is not a primary motive. Out of all the words in the English language he could use to describe such a transaction, why does LaPierre have to use the ONE word that undercuts our whole defense the most? Maybe this seems a small detail to some, but we are engaged in a very desperate propaganda war with a very cunning enemy, and we need to have all our muskets pointing in the same direction. Our enemies are not going to make dumb mistakes like this; we can't afford to either.
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 10:15:48 AM EDT
Fuzzy, Why don't you take it up with Mr. LaPierre? If you have, what did he say? If not, why not? I think you make a good point and I read the same editorial and missed it. I just think you oughta take it up with him and see what he says about it. Thanks, Merlin
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 4:32:57 PM EDT
No, Wayne LaPierre is a very intelligent lobbyist. He knows that if the government quits trying to destroy our gun rights, that he will be out of a job immediately. And it's a damn good paying job, too, especially for someone as useless as he is. So, he does his best to keep making things worse.
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 4:38:35 PM EDT
I am very surprised he would label private sales as commerce. What the hell was he thinking?
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 4:40:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fuzzbean: I just got the July issue of the [i]American Rifleman[/i] and was reading Wayne LaPierre's "Standing Guard" column, about the so-called "Gun Show Loophole." While I generally agree with what he's saying, I notice 2 or 3 times he refers to private sales or trades of firearms between non-dealers as "commerce." Now, most federal gun control laws get their fig leaf of constitutionality from the "Commerce Clause" of the U.S. Constitution, which empowers congress to regulate interstate business activities. So, as they try to regulate or ban the private sale of firearms between non-dealers, there is nothing the anti-gunners would LOVE better than to convince the public that such sales are somehow a "commercial" activity, and thus fair game for federal regulation. And here our very own buddy Wayne is handing them exactly what they want. There is nothing commercial about the private sale of personal firearms between non-dealers, where profit is not a primary motive. Out of all the words in the English language he could use to describe such a transaction, why does LaPierre have to use the ONE word that undercuts our whole defense the most? Maybe this seems a small detail to some, but we are engaged in a very desperate propaganda war with a very cunning enemy, and we need to have all our muskets pointing in the same direction. Our enemies are not going to make dumb mistakes like this; we can't afford to either.
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The commerce clause does not apply to private transactions because there is no interstate activity. It is not the use of the word commerce that is the problem. It is the overreaching of the government and abuse of that particular clause to meddle in everyone's business. Don't let your frustration with what the gun control groups are trying to force on use cause you to question our cause. Nitpicking among ourselves is what gives them power. We have to stand together or we have no hope.
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 4:44:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed: No, Wayne LaPierre is a very intelligent lobbyist. He knows that if the government quits trying to destroy our gun rights, that he will be out of a job immediately. And it's a damn good paying job, too, especially for someone as useless as he is. So, he does his best to keep making things worse.
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BINGO! We have a winner, and that's exactly why I will no longer be supporting the NRA with my money. The GOA takes a much more hardline stance while the NRA compromises us into illegality. The funniest thing I read in my NRA mag (I get First Freedom, wife gets American Rifleman), was when they covered the Baretta U22. The quote was something along the lines of "With 10 round magazines, you can shoot more and reload less!" I nearly choked on my dinner in disgust. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 4:46:32 PM EDT
com·merce Pronunciation Key (kmrs) n. 1. The buying and selling of goods, especially on a large scale, as between cities or nations. 2.Intellectual exchange or social interaction. 3.Sexual intercourse.
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 5:10:39 PM EDT
"Wayne LaPierre is an Idiot" No, what he is is the worst kind of traitor, the kind who pretends to be helping you while he is actually selling you down the river.
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 6:00:56 PM EDT
He is what I like to call a sellout.
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 6:02:18 PM EDT
Somebody tell him to stop sending the junk mail my way.
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 6:08:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2002 6:10:57 PM EDT by BusMaster007]
Originally Posted By arjohnson: He is what I like to call a sellout.
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OK, here's his #...call him. [url]http://www.nra.org/[/url] That's not a dig on you in particular, arjohnson. It's more for all the guys on the Forum that bitch and moan about the NRA and don't join or do something about it. I've already said my piece before about it, so, I just put up the url for folks to utilize.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 2:22:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Merlin: Fuzzy, Why don't you take it up with Mr. LaPierre?
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Merlin, while not in regard to this latest gaff, I have emailed and written letters to the NRA leadership several times over the years. One time I got a response that actually addressed the very points I brought up, and indicated that somebody had paid attention to my letter. That was back around 1984. Back when Harlon B. Carter was still running the NRA, I believe. Around 1988 or 1989 I wrote a letter to the [i]American Rifleman[/i] staff, complaining about Harlon B. Carter's infamous "suspend the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Amendments" drug war article that they had printed. This drew an angry response from Harlon himself. Since then, my letters have never triggered the slightest acknowledgement from anyone at NRA headquarters, despite the fact that I'm an endowment member and typically donate a couple hundred dollars a year more to the NRA coffers -- whether I agree with everything they do or not.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 2:39:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Aggie1: The commerce clause does not apply to private transactions because there is no interstate activity. It is not the use of the word commerce that is the problem.
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It is indeed a very real problem. While you are correct that the Constitution refers to interstate commerce, the courts have repeatedly ruled that virtually ALL commerce is interstate. You know, your gun was made in Massachusetts from steel refined in Pennsylvania out of ore dug up in Minnesota... that type of thing. Prosecutors in the Clinton administration even tried to argue that once a migratory bird shits on your land, everything that takes place there afterwards is the business of the federal government. No kidding. While I certainly do not agree with such a broad interpretation of the word "interstate" myself, the practical reality is that that half of the argument has already been lost. All we got left is the "commerce", and LaPierre is setting us up for a fall on that one too.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 2:43:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2002 2:44:24 AM EDT by skipperJ]
[b][i]Definitions of commerce:[/b][/i] [i]noun: transactions having the objective of supplying commodities noun: social exchange, especially of opinions, attitudes, etc. noun: the federal department that promotes and administers domestic and foreign trade (including management of the census and the patent office); created in 1913[/i] O.K. So he may have incorrectly applied the word "commodities." So what? If it were not for the NRA you would not be allowed to own a gun and the website AR15.com would not even exist.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 2:51:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By radboy223: "Wayne LaPierre is an Idiot" No, what he is is the worst kind of traitor, the kind who pretends to be helping you while he is actually selling you down the river.
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I don't really think the man is an intentional traitor. I do think he is a professional executive, rather than a person who really 100% cares about or understands the Second Amendment. In a somewhat Clintonesque way, he just speaks whatever words he thinks will get the day's work done. And this time he forgot to run them past his lawyers and strategists.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:09:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By skipperJ: O.K. So he may have incorrectly applied the word "commodities." So what?
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You're obviously not paying attention here. I'm NOT fussing over the mere properness of his English. I'm concerned that he is using a word that not only has the obvious connotation of profit-making business activities, but is THE PRECISE WORD used in the U.S. Constitution to define the regulatory powers of congress. He is making the anti-gunners' argument for them. It does not appear to me that Mr. LaPierre has given a whole lot of thought to what the different levels of our defense against the "gun show loophole" should be, or he would not be tossing away one of our biggest assets like this.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:14:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mattja: I am very surprised he would label private sales as commerce. What the hell was he thinking?
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Let's just hope he uses a different word when he testifies before congress.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:57:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Boomer: com·merce Pronunciation Key (kmrs) n. 3.Sexual intercourse.
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This is new to me.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:28:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By Boomer: com·merce Pronunciation Key (kmrs) n. 3.Sexual intercourse.
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This is new to me.
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Well, I've tried it a couple times. [:E]
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:56:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2002 4:58:51 AM EDT by Happyshooter]
FDR threatened the supreme court for his new deal, most of which violated the constitution. As his 'packing scheme' would have meant many things, the least of which was a rubberstamp department for the party in place of the supremes (and a promise that no one not in the party would ever be 'elected' when your court of appeal for election problems is a complete dem body), long run it would have ended the republic. Thus, the supremes pussed out and declared---not kidding--that if you grew a plant in your backyard, your family might eat it, and by doing so not eat a plant you bought, and the plant you didn't buy would....and thus a plant might not be shipped across state lines somewhere, or maybe one would, so therefore the congress had every right to pass laws relating to your plant in your home's backyard. Private gun sales are commerce under the court's rulings, and you need to face that fact. It may be a lie under the real constution, but in america the supreme's lies are truth.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 5:16:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Happyshooter: Private gun sales are commerce under the court's rulings, and you need to face that fact. It may be a lie under the real constution, but in america the supreme's lies are truth.
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Please sir, dont let the facts get in the way of our NRA-bashing. Some of us need to bash the NRA for no particular reason, and when you speak the truth (which hurts my brain because it is too complicated), you cramp my style.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 5:32:10 AM EDT
good ol boy Wayne.............. & some folks wonder why i do not want anythyng to do wyth the NRA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:34:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fuzzbean:
Originally Posted By radboy223: "Wayne LaPierre is an Idiot" No, what he is is the worst kind of traitor, the kind who pretends to be helping you while he is actually selling you down the river.
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I don't really think the man is an intentional traitor. I do think he is a professional executive, rather than a person who really 100% cares about or understands the Second Amendment. In a somewhat Clintonesque way, he just speaks whatever words he thinks will get the day's work done. And this time he forgot to run them past his lawyers and strategists.
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You really think his "intent" excuses his actions? I bet Bendict Arnold felt he was doing the right thing too. The fact is betrayal is betrayal is betrayal. No offence intended, but you sound like you would also buy the anti-gunner's "do it for the children" line, too. I mean, they don't MEAN to take away anyone's freedom, right?(although personally I'm not so sure about that)
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:43:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2002 7:44:20 AM EDT by Lancelot]
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:55:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By skipperJ: [b][i]Definitions of commerce:[/b][/i] [i]noun: transactions having the objective of supplying commodities noun: social exchange, especially of opinions, attitudes, etc. noun: the federal department that promotes and administers domestic and foreign trade (including management of the census and the patent office); created in 1913[/i] O.K. So he may have incorrectly applied the word "commodities." So what? If it were not for the NRA you would not be allowed to own a gun and the website AR15.com would not even exist.
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NRA is a piece of shit. The NRA does nothing for the 2nd amendment,except acts as it's pimp.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:55:58 AM EDT
"If it were not for the NRA you would not be allowed to own a gun and the website AR15.com would not even exist." The NRA didn't give me any of my rights and neither did any government. Every human being is BORN with the rights inherent to free will and action, including the right to defend yourself however is necessary with whatever is needed. The only actions organizations(including governments) can take in regards to a person's rights is either to leave them alone or take them away. Our government increasingly more and more lately is acting to take them away. And what is the NRA's response? Trying to sweettalk them into only taking away HALF our rights(at least today). Taking away ANY of a person's rights(yes, for any reason) is evil(you would all probably agree with me if it was some other government taking some other right of their own citizens, I suspect). But, Compromising with those who are taking away our rights is also evil. The NRA is absolutely NOT responsible To ANY degree for my still owning the guns that I do, but they ARE implicitly at least partly responsible for my not being able to own the guns that it is now illegal to possess. This is because they COULD have done much much more to fight the taking away of our(their funders, I might add)rights. Instead, they took our hard-earned and purposely-given money and frittered it away wining and dining politicians who they then colluded with, as well as paying themselves lavish salaries for betraying us. You can swallow the NRA's propaganda BS line if you wish, but don't ask me to, I spit in their eye. [%(]
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:58:10 AM EDT
You know guys that no one is perfect. And some times people read different things into a printed article. But you have to realize that the best friend we , collectively as gun owners, have is the NRA and NEED to support it. Anything short would be a tactical mistake.Sure its easy to be an armchair quarterback but those NRA members do elect people in the origination and really do their best. So if any of you readers out there are not NRA members , you need to stand with us. Now.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 8:14:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 1:13:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By radboy223:
Originally Posted By Fuzzbean:
Originally Posted By radboy223: "Wayne LaPierre is an Idiot" No, what he is is the worst kind of traitor, the kind who pretends to be helping you while he is actually selling you down the river.
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I don't really think the man is an intentional traitor. I do think he is a professional executive, rather than a person who really 100% cares about or understands the Second Amendment. In a somewhat Clintonesque way, he just speaks whatever words he thinks will get the day's work done. And this time he forgot to run them past his lawyers and strategists.
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You really think his "intent" excuses his actions? I bet Bendict Arnold felt he was doing the right thing too. The fact is betrayal is betrayal is betrayal. No offence intended, but you sound like you would also buy the anti-gunner's "do it for the children" line, too. I mean, they don't MEAN to take away anyone's freedom, right?(although personally I'm not so sure about that)
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Boy, some people sure got their own ideas about reading comprehension. On one hand I got people labeling me an "NRA basher" and lecturing me on the importance of the NRA. Despite me being a member since I was 16 and now at the Endowment level. Then I get this guy telling my I'm a gullible moron who believes anything he's told, despite the fact that it was ME who initiated this topic critical of what LaPierre is saying. I guess these message boards really are like the Special Olympics. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 1:28:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Avtomat:
Originally Posted By Happyshooter: Private gun sales are commerce under the court's rulings, and you need to face that fact. It may be a lie under the real constution, but in america the supreme's lies are truth.
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Please sir, dont let the facts get in the way of our NRA-bashing. Some of us need to bash the NRA for no particular reason, and when you speak the truth (which hurts my brain because it is too complicated), you cramp my style.
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Facts my ass. In recent years the courts have begun to show at least SOME inclination to place reasonable limits on the interpretation of the word "commerce." Witness the [i]Lopez[/i] case, regarding the Gun Free Schools Act of 1990. But they will NEVER rule in our favor if we argue the opposition's case for them.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 2:05:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fuzzbean:
Originally Posted By Aggie1: The commerce clause does not apply to private transactions because there is no interstate activity. It is not the use of the word commerce that is the problem.
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It is indeed a very real problem. While you are correct that the Constitution refers to interstate commerce, the courts have repeatedly ruled that virtually ALL commerce is interstate. You know, your gun was made in Massachusetts from steel refined in Pennsylvania out of ore dug up in Minnesota... that type of thing. Prosecutors in the Clinton administration even tried to argue that once a migratory bird shits on your land, everything that takes place there afterwards is the business of the federal government. No kidding. While I certainly do not agree with such a broad interpretation of the word "interstate" myself, the practical reality is that that half of the argument has already been lost. All we got left is the "commerce", and LaPierre is setting us up for a fall on that one too.
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If you are going to quote me at least quote me in the context that it was used in. I said basically the same thing you did. Sheesh
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 2:17:13 PM EDT
Are we all members of the NRA? GOA? Or Brady Buncha crap.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 2:18:33 PM EDT
Lancelot and other NRA bashers...thanks for the many laughs...
Originally Posted By Lancelot: If you haven't seen this site, its worth looking at. [url]www.nrawol.org[/url]
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I swear, this 'nrawol' website must be run by the Dem. Underground and/or the VPC--- get this anti-NRA shit the hell out of my face. I suppose you think GOA or some other little rinky-dink gun group is even going to have a whisper of a voice in Washington... how absolutely hillarious! How funny also that people feel compelled to start their own little pro-gun organizations rather than try to change the NRA from the inside. (maybe because this takes more effort than hanging out a shingle and starting your own little 'club') ...chuckle...chuckle... Many of those who founded organizations such as GOA, etc. are REAL Patriotic Americans, but others are just in it for themselves and their own selfish agenda ($$$). Those who would criticize NRA leadership for being greedy and money-hungry need to take an honest look at the several 'NRA pretenders' out there. The NRA is THE largest, most successful lobbying organization in this Nation- 'pro-gun' folks that oppose the NRA are either 1) Patriotic to the point of blindness (ie the belief that every single child, mental patient, and criminal should have the right to open carry at any time), 2) greedy for a share of their own glory/attention, 3) jealous of the NRA and its enormous strength, 4) young and/or ignorant of reality (i.e. most so called "Libertarians," who have the same beef with the Republican party that they do with the NRA), 5) too damned pessimistic/shortsighted and/or lazy to use the extensive power of the NRA to their advantage 6) all of the above (eeek). Get in there and fix the problems with the NRA (and while we're at it, the Republican party as well)- from the inside! Don't go starting a new organization everytime the most powerful lobbying force in America pisses you off. Use their power to YOUR advantage! Thanks again for the laughs-and remember that if all ~80 million US gun owners were NRA members we wouldn't need to worry about this crap- we would DOMINATE Washington's politics.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 2:22:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fuzzbean: I guess these message boards really are like the Special Olympics. [rolleyes]
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You mean: "Even if you win, you're still retarded."
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 2:43:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dissipator556: I suppose you think GOA or some other little rinky-dink gun group is even going to have a whisper of a voice in Washington... how absolutely hillarious!
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You are correct that there is no substitute for the muscle of the NRA, but I think those smaller groups do serve a couple valuable functions. If nothing else, they make the NRA's positions seem more moderate and more acceptable to cowardly politicians. If the NRA was the most extreme gun rights group, that would be a handicap in itself.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:16:05 PM EDT
What the Fu(k is wrong with you people....The NRA is the ONLY pro-gun org with clout that can fight for gun rights. If your 2 fricken cheap to pay $ 35 a year ( The magazine is worth that much alone) you need to just shut your damn pie holes and not complain that the NRA isn't doing enough to protect and preserve your 2nd rights without your $$ help.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:37:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tangeant: What the Fu(k is wrong with you people....The NRA is the ONLY pro-gun org with clout that can fight for gun rights. If your 2 fricken cheap to pay $ 35 a year ( The magazine is worth that much alone) you need to just shut your damn pie holes and not complain that the NRA isn't doing enough to protect and preserve your 2nd rights without your $$ help.
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Exactly who are you talking to?
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:50:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:36:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2002 4:40:13 PM EDT by heliflyer]
[B] Originally Posted By radboy223: "Wayne LaPierre is an Idiot" No, what he is is the worst kind of traitor, the kind who pretends to be helping you while he is actually selling you down the river. ----------------------------------------------- I don't really think the man is an intentional traitor. I do think he is a professional executive, rather than a person who really 100% cares about or understands the Second Amendment. In a somewhat Clintonesque way, he just speaks whatever words he thinks will get the day's work done. And this time he forgot to run them past his lawyers and strategists. ----------------------------------------------- You really think his "intent" excuses his actions? I bet Bendict Arnold felt he was doing the right thing too. The fact is betrayal is betrayal is betrayal. No offence intended, but you sound like you would also buy the anti-gunner's "do it for the children" line, too. I mean, they don't MEAN to take away anyone's freedom, right?(although personally I'm not so sure about that) ---------------------------------------------- Boy, some people sure got their own ideas about reading comprehension. On one hand I got people labeling me an "NRA basher" and lecturing me on the importance of the NRA. Despite me being a member since I was 16 and now at the Endowment level. Then I get this guy telling my I'm a gullible moron who believes anything he's told, despite the fact that it was ME who initiated this topic critical of what LaPierre is saying. I guess these message boards really are like the Special Olympics.[/b] Fuzzbean - you have a way with words, that makes me agree with you - Bill
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:46:59 PM EDT
[b]The beekeeper1 said: At this point I wish to "call out" every one of you NRA bashers to put your balls where your big mouth is. No one can "take" your liberty. It can only be voluntarily surrendered due to fear/apathy/stupidity. As you are obviously and clearly men of great principal, unwilling to compromise, I challenge each of you to publicly show your willingness to be Patriots by openly flouting the various unconstitutional laws. If your state forbids open carry, then carry your firearms proudly and openly. If it forbids concealed carry, then do so proudly, while proclaiming your right. If machine guns or suppressors are forbidden in your jurisdiction, then arm yourself with them, as we have heard repeatedly how easy these conversions are to make. Then stage a march on your state capital while carrying them in direct defiance to the unconstitutional laws foisted on us by the oppressive tyrants. If any, or all, of you do not have the stones to do these logical things, then STFU. You are pathetic and stupid beyond belief. Perhaps just cheap bastards too. A little education: There are political realities that cannot be ignored. We know we are "right" in our stance regarding the BOR, especially the Second Amendment. There is another faction of the population who believe they are equally "right" in their contrary beliefs. When the political pendulum swings away from us, and it is determined the Congressional votes exist to ban one thing or another, and this cannot be stopped, then the NRA has no choice but to make the best deal they can, while protecting/maintaining whatever they can. Period. The reason we find ourselves in this ugly situation is because we have 4 lousy million NRA members and about 76 million cheap/stupid gunowners who do not belong. We would own this damned Country if you pricks would do your part and recruit others. Those of you who sit and make excuses like, "the NRA 'let' the AWB pass, so they ain't gettin' any money from me!" are too stupid to be worth dealing with. Those of you who are on the fence, please, please think about it. There is strength in numbers and four million is not going to win didley.[/b] Damn, I wished I would have said that!
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:50:51 PM EDT
So, did anyone call Wayne? Join the NRA? Maybe the "my new toy" threads can start to say people here on AR15.com spent the measly $35 to get a membership for a year. beekeeper put it mildly...[;D]
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 5:42:04 PM EDT
Here it goes again(I've certainly seen it happen to plenty of others here in this place I like so much). The same old **** again. Offer a differing, reasonable opinion or point of view in a polite, respectful and courteous way without ever once namecalling or insulting anyone, and what do you get? Personally insulted and called mentally "blind", envious of the NRA's "strength", young and "reality ignorant","pessimistic", "lazy", "shortsighted", "pathetic", "stupid beyond belief", "cheap bastard", and "prick", among others. Fix the problems of the NRA from the inside, you yell(what, the NRA has problems, you say?), Pay them your money to defend your rights. Well, I say that in my own humble opinion the NRA IS a large part of the problem of creeping gun rights losses, and you don't solve problems by supporting them and thereby further enabling them. For far too many years the NRA has sat there claiming to be fighting for us, while actually not doing much more than soak up most of the scarce monetary resources which were available from us gunowners(yes, I was long a memberof the NRA myself) for that purpose. (cont'd)
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 5:51:08 PM EDT
Yes, the other gun orgs ARE smaller and less powerful. Why? Maybe because we all believed(wrongly, I think) for so long that the NRA really WOULD fight for us. Well, after many years, it seems apparent to me that they have NOT. Sure, they do a few good things to appear in a good light and keep the money rolling in. But the reality is that the rights get regulated or legislated away all the same, only with a bone or two thrown our way to keep them looking good(i.e.: "Look, it woulda been even worse if our NRA hadn't been in there fighting for us"). (cont'd)
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 5:52:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 5:57:57 PM EDT
As far as the name-calling goes, is that how you guys really are in person as well? If you don't like what someone else feels is true, you just ridicule him and shout him down? I know a lot of gunowners have a lot invested in the NRA(both financially and emotionally), but putting your hands over your ears and yelling "STFU" whenever someone offers a critical opinion looks a lot to me like you are sticking your head in the sand, kinda.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:13:24 PM EDT
thebeekeeper1 I have no grudge against you or anyone else on this board, and I don't really comprehend your stated personal hostility towards me. I've always enjoyed your posts and agreed with most, lol. I don't even understand why you are insultingly challenging me to break numerous laws and regulations. I don't believe we've ever even spoken before. Are you saying that in your opinion financially supporting the NRA despite my opinion of their effectiveness is the only legally viable option? I'm not sure why you have chosen to take my statements of my opinion as personal attacks on you. They were not, actually. My only grudge is against wasting my limited resources on an organization I perceive to be ineffective(at best).
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:17:03 PM EDT
Many in the RKBA movement feel that all the NRA has to do is simply march into the statehouses and capital buildings with the Constitution in one hand and the Bible in the other, and we'll magically turn back 90 years of gun control. All it takes is an organization with "backbone". This simpleton approach doesn't take into account that we, the RKBA movement, are the vast minority in many areas. Actually it's a miracle that we still have any gun rights at all. Undoubtedly many of these remaining rights have been fought for (and bought) with the dollars that we've sent to the NRA. I will continue to support the NRA as well as other RKBA groups. The way I see it, there's really no other choice.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:35:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:36:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SWS: Many in the RKBA movement feel that all the NRA has to do is simply march into the statehouses and capital buildings with the Constitution in one hand and the Bible in the other, and we'll magically turn back 90 years of gun control. All it takes is an organization with "backbone". This simpleton approach doesn't take into account that we, the RKBA movement, are the vast minority in many areas. Actually it's a miracle that we still have any gun rights at all. Undoubtedly many of these remaining rights have been fought for (and bought) with the dollars that we've sent to the NRA. I will continue to support the NRA as well as other RKBA groups. The way I see it, there's really no other choice.
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I don't have a problem with your approach. Different roads for different people, you know. I don't even resent your opinion of my position as a "simpleton" approach, lol. I'm not quite THAT simpleminded a person, actually. We all have to make our own choices, and maybe in the end yours will turn out to have been the right one. All that really matters is that things turn out right in the long run. One way, or another, I expect they probably will. [:E]
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 9:24:41 PM EDT
As a member of the NRA, I am PROUD that the organization is finally realizing that what the Vietnam war hero and great Republican John McCain has been saying about gun shows is true. With McCain in the oval office in 2004 and the NRA to guide gun owners on the right track, we will experience freedom like never before.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 10:42:36 AM EDT
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