[ARCHIVED THREAD] - USMC Rank question... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/21/2012 2:26:41 PM EDT
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Curious about the number of corporals I see in the Marines vs the Army.
Maybe it's just me, but I seem to notice that more Marines are the rank of corporal when reading stories about individuals, or even in TV/movies. I don't see as many corporals in the Army branch. Is this because a Marine keeps one rank longer before promotion or what? |
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Curious about the number of corporals I see in the Marines vs the Army. Maybe it's just me, but I seem to notice that more Marines are the rank of corporal when reading stories about individuals, or even in TV/movies. I don't see as many corporals in the Army branch. Is this because a Marine keeps one rank longer before promotion or what? depends on the Marines MOS and associated cutting score to advance, some cutting scores are stupid high, others are lower. |
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Don't forget the Army has Spc-4, too... Nope. It is called just Specialist now. The Specialist ranks were a continuation/renaming of the old techincal ranks from WWII. Specialist 8 and Specialist 9, were eliminated in 1968. Specialist 7 was abolished in 1978 and Specialist 5 and Specialist 6 in 1985. I always thought it was an excellent idea which should be adopted regardless of MOS/techincal nature of job duties. Contrary to the stupid "up or out" promotion system there are many guys that would do great as career non-rates. If you want to hump a SAW for 20 years and never be an NCO there is nothing wrong with that. Not everyone is cut out for leadership. |
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Don't forget the Army has Spc-4, too... Nope. It is called just Specialist now. The Specialist system was scrapped years ago. I got out in 1999, and I was a Jarhead too, so I really never paid real close attention to the way the Army was organized. It still doesn't make much sense to me now, but it's not anything to worry about either. 
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The press will often refer to a Lance Corporal (E-3) as a Corporal as well. I've even heard them refer to Lance Corporal as a Lance Colonel and a LtCol as a Lieutenant Corporal before. There truly is no end to the ignorance of the press. When my unit (VMFA-235) arrived at Kadena AFB in 1985, all of us L/Cpls were issued O-Club club cards with LTC in the rank box. On our last night there, myself and two other Lance Coolies put on proper civilian attire and enjoyed a nice meal at the O-Club. We ran into a couple of our Officers, who got bug eyed for a few seconds before they realized what was happening. They just smiled and sent us a round of beers, and we returned the gesture. Believe it or not, us unwashed heathens behaved like perfect gentlemen for a few hours. 
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Policies change with the needs of the Army, but the Army typically promotes (lateral promotion) E-4 Specialists to Corporal if they're serving in an E-5 slot. For example, an E-4 Specialist serving as a Bradley Gunner would typically be promoted to Corporal (Bradley Gunner is an E-5 Sergeant slot). It's a leadership role as the gunner is also responsible for the driver and crew. A Corporal is a junior NCO, a Specialist "lower enlisted". Same pay grade but a Corporal has more responsibility.
I knew very few Corporals in the Army (late 80's, early 90's). Most were Bradley gunners or squad leaders. I was a Sergeant, but was never a Corporal. |
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Don't forget the Army has Spc-4, too... Nope. It is called just Specialist now. The Specialist ranks were a continuation/renaming of the old techincal ranks from WWII. Specialist 8 and Specialist 9, were eliminated in 1968. Specialist 7 was abolished in 1978 and Specialist 5 and Specialist 6 in 1985. I always thought it was an excellent idea which should be adopted regardless of MOS/techincal nature of job duties. Contrary to the stupid "up or out" promotion system there are many guys that would do great as career non-rates. If you want to hump a SAW for 20 years and never be an NCO there is nothing wrong with that. Not everyone is cut out for leadership. I was a SP/4 when the official transition to SPC took place (1989). The NCOIC of the chow hall would stand there and berate any E-4 who signed the login sheet with the "newly nonexistent" rank of SP/4. We were stubborn and did it on purpose while he ranted and raved about being audited for having properly filled out paperwork to account for meals....... My grandfather was an Army T-6 in WWII. |
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Quoted: Policies change with the needs of the Army, but the Army typically promotes (lateral promotion) E-4 Specialists to Corporal if they're serving in an E-5 slot. For example, an E-4 Specialist serving as a Bradley Gunner would typically be promoted to Corporal (Bradley Gunner is an E-5 Sergeant slot). It's a leadership role as the gunner is also responsible for the driver and crew. A Corporal is a junior NCO, a Specialist "lower enlisted". Same pay grade but a Corporal has more responsibility. I knew very few Corporals in the Army (late 80's, early 90's). Most were Bradley gunners or squad leaders. I was a Sergeant, but was never a Corporal. <-was an Army Corporal as a MI squad leader in '91; if the Warsaw Pact had stayed together just a little longer I would have just gotten promoted to E-5 as my MOS cutoff scores were at 450 (and 550 for E-6) for years on end. Big advantage was that courtesy patrol watching the same damn movie three times in a row at the post theater was far better duty than guarding a motor pool with a pick handle in the pouring rain.  |
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I was a Sp/4 who was Lateraled to a Cpl. My Cdr put me in charge of the companys machinegun crews. the Unit was a NYARNG outfit that was for its time horrible(71st infantry regiment-1984). NCO's didnt wear ranking, soldiers showed up in mixmatched uniforms like BDU shirts with OD Pants (or the one guy who would change into Tigerstripes as soon as we got off the deuces). the guns werent being manned by the plts as no one wanted to carry them. Me being right out of Active Duty 2AD the Top and Cdr put me opn the problem. I designated crews, trained them in crew drill, marksmanship, immediate action drills, PMCS, etc. for a Year that was my Job, and in the end we had functioning gun crews who wanted to be gunners.
Then it was decided to make me the 3rd Plts Acting PSG/PL. the NCO's gave the cdr a letter stating they would not be responsible and I was chosen to lead the platoon. Just before AT at Ft. Campbell I was made an Acting Jack buck sergeant, and a month later orders for real Buck Sgt came through. The Army doesnt really have CPL unless its for holding a Sgt slot for a E-4 who wasnt a PNCOC/PLDC grad yet. Recently my old bn lateraled a bunch of young SPC to CPL in the rear det while 1/2 unit was deployed. Upon the units return they were very unceremoniuously stripped of CPL back to SPC even though they had done a satisfactory job as slts for the returning NCO's had to be found. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Don't forget the Army has Spc-4, too... Nope. It is called just Specialist now. The Specialist system was scrapped years ago. I got out in 1999, and I was a Jarhead too, so I really never paid real close attention to the way the Army was organized. It still doesn't make much sense to me now, but it's not anything to worry about either. As someone who grew up as an Army brat, did ROTC on contract (so enlisted in the Reserves), and whose brother is an active duty Army officer, your mistake is thinking the Army is organized... |
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All Marine E-4s are Corporals. Some Marine officers have said the corporals run the Marine corp. There is some truth to that statement. There is also a popular saying that Spec-4s run the Army. From talking to Army buddies, it's not really the same. The USMC promotes slower, and Corporals are almost all Fireteam or even Squad leaders. A majority of Fireteam leaders are Lance Corporals too.... |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: All Marine E-4s are Corporals. Some Marine officers have said the corporals run the Marine corp. There is some truth to that statement. There is also a popular saying that Spec-4s run the Army. From talking to Army buddies, it's not really the same. The USMC promotes slower, and Corporals are almost all Fireteam or even Squad leaders. A majority of Fireteam leaders are Lance Corporals too.... I would hope so. I would want experienced Fireteam leaders who knew their shit and were switched on. A PFC (E3) as a fireteam leader would be a poor decision (In the Army), unless the guy was busted down or there was nobody left. |
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Also, authority in the Marines is pushed to the lowest level possible. So when it's said "Corporals run the Marines" it's almost the literal truth. I have lots of buddies in the Army, and from thier stories, it sounds like the opposite, responsibility is pushed to higher ranks. Perfect example, it's common to have low ranking Marines in positions where the Army would have higher ranking enlisted. It's an economy of scale, the Army flat out has more high ranking Enlisted for leadership billets. |
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All Marine E-4s are Corporals. Some Marine officers have said the corporals run the Marine corp. There is some truth to that statement. There is also a popular saying that Spec-4s run the Army. From talking to Army buddies, it's not really the same. The USMC promotes slower, and Corporals are almost all Fireteam or even Squad leaders. A majority of Fireteam leaders are Lance Corporals too.... I would hope so. I would want experienced Fireteam leaders who knew their shit and were switched on. A PFC (E3) as a fireteam leader would be a poor decision, unless the guy was busted down or there was nobody left. Usually the E3 Team leaders are "one pump chumps" so they have been around the block a bit. It is common to finish one deployment cycle and pick up a fresh boot-drop before picking up Corporal. Some guys get back and don't even rate a cutting score...
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Quoted: The press will often refer to a Lance Corporal (E-3) as a Corporal as well. I've even heard them refer to Lance Corporal as a Lance Colonel and a LtCol as a Lieutenant Corporal before. There used to be a Corporal Captain rank briefly during the Korean War. |
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Quoted: Also, authority in the Marines is pushed to the lowest level possible. So when it's said "Corporals run the Marines" it's almost the literal truth. I have lots of buddies in the Army, and from thier stories, it sounds like the opposite, responsibility is pushed to higher ranks. Perfect example, it's common to have low ranking Marines in positions where the Army would have higher ranking enlisted. It's an economy of scale, the Army flat out has more high ranking Enlisted for leadership billets. It's safe to say that Sergeants run the Army, and Corporals run the Marine Corps. Well, Corporals get the work done. Econonmy of scale is an excellent way to explain the USMC delegation of authority. edit; For the OP, a Corporal (E4) in the USMC is a non commissioned officer. He is expected to take on a leadership role. A Specialist (E4) in the Army is not an NCO and is not a leader. |
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The press will often refer to a Lance Corporal (E-3) as a Corporal as well. I've even heard them refer to Lance Corporal as a Lance Colonel and a LtCol as a Lieutenant Corporal before. There used to be a Corporal Captain rank briefly during the Korean War. It is weird how they mash those ranks together isn't it? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Also, authority in the Marines is pushed to the lowest level possible. So when it's said "Corporals run the Marines" it's almost the literal truth. I have lots of buddies in the Army, and from thier stories, it sounds like the opposite, responsibility is pushed to higher ranks. Perfect example, it's common to have low ranking Marines in positions where the Army would have higher ranking enlisted. It's an economy of scale, the Army flat out has more high ranking Enlisted for leadership billets. It's safe to say that Sergeants run the Army, and Corporals run the Marine Corps. Well, Corporals get the work done. Econonmy of scale is an excellent way to explain the USMC delegation of authority. Never heard of the Spec-4 mafia uh? Also, I remember our CO coming into our hooch in Iraq and the group of us were all E4s. The Captain said "you guys know that it's Specialists that run the Army right? You guys keep all the privates in line and make sure they're doing the right thing" |
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Also, authority in the Marines is pushed to the lowest level possible. So when it's said "Corporals run the Marines" it's almost the literal truth. I have lots of buddies in the Army, and from thier stories, it sounds like the opposite, responsibility is pushed to higher ranks. Perfect example, it's common to have low ranking Marines in positions where the Army would have higher ranking enlisted. It's an economy of scale, the Army flat out has more high ranking Enlisted for leadership billets. It's safe to say that Sergeants run the Army, and Corporals run the Marine Corps. Well, Corporals get the work done. Econonmy of scale is an excellent way to explain the USMC delegation of authority. Never heard of the Spec-4 mafia uh? Also, I remember our CO coming into our hooch in Iraq and the group of us were all E4s. The Captain said "you guys know that it's Specialists that run the Army right? You guys keep all the privates in line and make sure they're doing the right thing" That's a pretty good description of Lance Corporals - via the "Lance Criminal Underground." |
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The press will often refer to a Lance Corporal (E-3) as a Corporal as well. I've even heard them refer to Lance Corporal as a Lance Colonel and a LtCol as a Lieutenant Corporal before. There used to be a Corporal Captain rank briefly during the Korean War. Yeah. It had something to do with Radar. 
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Quoted: I was a Corporal in the USMC, and a Spec 4, albeit in the NG. A world of difference in responsibilities and expectations. As I stated, a Corporal in the USMC is a non commissioned officer. Every E 4 in the USMC is a non commissioned officer. They are treated as (junior) leaders and expected to perform as such. As a Spec 4, I was often called upon to supervise small groups of junior soldiers, but I was never, ever treated as a leader. Quoted: Quoted: Also, authority in the Marines is pushed to the lowest level possible. So when it's said "Corporals run the Marines" it's almost the literal truth. I have lots of buddies in the Army, and from thier stories, it sounds like the opposite, responsibility is pushed to higher ranks. Perfect example, it's common to have low ranking Marines in positions where the Army would have higher ranking enlisted. It's an economy of scale, the Army flat out has more high ranking Enlisted for leadership billets. It's safe to say that Sergeants run the Army, and Corporals run the Marine Corps. Well, Corporals get the work done. Economy of scale is an excellent way to explain the USMC delegation of authority. Never heard of the Spec-4 mafia uh? Also, I remember our CO coming into our hooch in Iraq and the group of us were all E4s. The Captain said "you guys know that it's Specialists that run the Army right? You guys keep all the privates in line and make sure they're doing the right thing" |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Also, authority in the Marines is pushed to the lowest level possible. So when it's said "Corporals run the Marines" it's almost the literal truth. I have lots of buddies in the Army, and from thier stories, it sounds like the opposite, responsibility is pushed to higher ranks. Perfect example, it's common to have low ranking Marines in positions where the Army would have higher ranking enlisted. It's an economy of scale, the Army flat out has more high ranking Enlisted for leadership billets. It's safe to say that Sergeants run the Army, and Corporals run the Marine Corps. Well, Corporals get the work done. Econonmy of scale is an excellent way to explain the USMC delegation of authority. Never heard of the Spec-4 mafia uh? Also, I remember our CO coming into our hooch in Iraq and the group of us were all E4s. The Captain said "you guys know that it's Specialists that run the Army right? You guys keep all the privates in line and make sure they're doing the right thing" When I was a Lance Corporal, (E-3) I was in the HQ platoon for the Company for awhile (rotational positions, mostly staffed by people they see with laptops on float) as the Police Sgt. I was in charge of the Company Barracks to include the rooms, assignments, grounds and locks. The company issue field gear. I.E, cammie nets and poles, fuel and water jugs, training equipment, so on and so forth. For a weapons Co. that's a LOT of gear (14 Quadcons, and 10 Palcons). I was also the assistant Embark chief, and was responsible for issuing out all of that gear, itamizing by serial number all the trucks it went into, and making sure everything got on the boat to Iraq, and to camp in Kuwait. (Of Course the Company Commander "owned" the gear, but I as the issuing authority was responsible for it all, about 15 million in equipment). Then I had to get it all rounded up and back to the states. Thank got my rotation in the HQ platoon was over after that  (did a lot of other stuff, that was just one small facet of my job, on top of being the CO's driver/ gunner/ security for the fwd command element).Long story short, that is an example of E-4's/ E-3's running the Marines. It's so much more than keeping privates in line and doing the right thing. It's no shit, if I was sick and couldn't work for a few days, people would not be able to get the shit they needed to accomplish the mission. |
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Also, authority in the Marines is pushed to the lowest level possible. So when it's said "Corporals run the Marines" it's almost the literal truth. I have lots of buddies in the Army, and from thier stories, it sounds like the opposite, responsibility is pushed to higher ranks. Perfect example, it's common to have low ranking Marines in positions where the Army would have higher ranking enlisted. It's an economy of scale, the Army flat out has more high ranking Enlisted for leadership billets. It's safe to say that Sergeants run the Army, and Corporals run the Marine Corps. Well, Corporals get the work done. Econonmy of scale is an excellent way to explain the USMC delegation of authority. edit; For the OP, a Corporal (E4) in the USMC is a non commissioned officer. He is expected to take on a leadership role. A Specialist (E4) in the Army is not an NCO and is not a leader. That's not always true. Often times you'll have a SPC in a leadership position, but they remain SPCs until they get E-5. CPLs are rarer than hen's teeth in the Army, but E-4s being leaders are not. It's the whole "how we ought to do it" vs the "how we actually do it" thing. |
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In my experience, corporal is rarely used anyways. We usually had 3-4 SPC team leaders for every CPL team leader. Those lateral'd to CPL in my unit was because they were being groomed for E-5 boards and getting "experience" as a squad leader/Sr. Team Leader. Also, when I was a CPL I had an NCOER, but as a SPC I didn't. |
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It's no shit, if I was sick and couldn't work for a few days, people would not be able to get the shit they needed to accomplish the mission.
Sounds like a flaw in the system, nothing to be proud of... Sorta. Every unit has one go-to guy like that. Someone could fill their shoes, but shit will be ugly while they get spun up. |
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Quoted: An E3 Lance Corporal fireteam leader is the norm, lol. Like the poster 3 above me said, its different though. You have E-3 team leaders in the Marine Corps while the Army has E-5 TLs..... EDIT : Beat by a min ^ lol We had six man "squads" in MI of an E5, an assistant E5 squad leader, and four E4s. |
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Don't forget the Army has Spc-4, too... Nope. It is called just Specialist now. The Specialist ranks were a continuation/renaming of the old techincal ranks from WWII. Specialist 8 and Specialist 9, were eliminated in 1968. Specialist 7 was abolished in 1978 and Specialist 5 and Specialist 6 in 1985. I always thought it was an excellent idea which should be adopted regardless of MOS/techincal nature of job duties. Contrary to the stupid "up or out" promotion system there are many guys that would do great as career non-rates. If you want to hump a SAW for 20 years and never be an NCO there is nothing wrong with that. Not everyone is cut out for leadership. In common parlance it still gets referred to as Spec 4 a lot. |
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In my experience, corporal is rarely used anyways. We usually had 3-4 SPC team leaders for every CPL team leader. Those lateral'd to CPL in my unit was because they were being groomed for E-5 boards and getting "experience" as a squad leader/Sr. Team Leader. Also, when I was a CPL I had an NCOER, but as a SPC I didn't. I was in a medical mos and lateral'd (sp?) to CPL -I was also in a SSG slot-made SGT in a few months. In the early 1990's |
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Don't forget, in the Army, being corporal isn't a good thing. Unlike the Marines, corporals don't get respected as true NCOs from the higher ranks. They'll say they give a shit, till they need an extra joe... Corporal is one of the worst ranks in the Army. Rank is gained much slower in the USMC. SPC is just a matter of running the clock out in terms of TIS/TIG. CPL is earned but rarely awarded in the Army. My sense of the rank in the USMC from my year with them was that the CPLs had earned their rank. There was also much more basic respect for rank from the lower enlisted Joes. |
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Quoted: Quoted: The Army has few Corporals as most of their E-4s are Specialists in non-leadership positions. All Marine E-4s are Corporals. except for assaultmen, we're all lance corporals fo'evaaaaaaaaaaaa lat move to 0352...... you'll pick up right quick OP, see: there's a reason the term terminal lance came into being.... Lcpl to Cpl is a decently tough jump - you can enlist as an E4 in the Army......
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Quoted: Quoted: Don't forget the Army has Spc-4, too... Nope. It is called just Specialist now. The Specialist ranks were a continuation/renaming of the old techincal ranks from WWII. Specialist 8 and Specialist 9, were eliminated in 1968. Specialist 7 was abolished in 1978 and Specialist 5 and Specialist 6 in 1985. I always thought it was an excellent idea which should be adopted regardless of MOS/techincal nature of job duties. Contrary to the stupid "up or out" promotion system there are many guys that would do great as career non-rates. If you want to hump a SAW for 20 years and never be an NCO there is nothing wrong with that. Not everyone is cut out for leadership. Yup. They need the system back. Some guys either don't want to be, or just aren't, leaders. And that's fine. Had some fine soldiers that weren't cut to be leaders. And got out b/c they didn't want to be an E-5 and moved to a TL slot. But they were great at being a gunner, humping a load, assaulting a building...doing the things we needed done. |