Post from garandman -

Not good enough, [b]garandman[/b], not nearly good enough.

What you have said in this thread is no different than what you accused me of saying about you regarding Sept 11th, and how you may have viewed that tragedy.

Once again, I demand that you take the word celebration and any hint that I 'celebrated' the attack on the USS Liberty, or we will both get real serious, real quick!

And I mean this with all sincerity.

If you can post three threads over a period of 24 hours, last month, seeking just such a response from me, then understand that I will post this request until one of us can't stand it any longer and gives up!

Understand?

Now remove the offending language and don't replace it with veiled assertions.

Eric The(IStillDon'tThinkYouUnderstandHowSeriousIAm)Hun[>]:)]

OK, Eric -

But you HAVE celebrated the Six Day War.

You have, you have.

Am I wrong about that???

And IMO, the attack on the USS Liberty is connected to the winning of the Six Day War.

[edited to add "IMO" and other clarifiers]

I've seen that $5 billion figure mentioned in print, when everything was included, so subslr is not out of line. They never seem to go into detail about what it breaks down to, however.

Standing up on the chair again? That's okay I would be too. [:)]

Post from garandman -

The entire free world celebrated the victory of Israel over her Soviet backed neighbors!

Heads rolled at the Kremlin, and the Arabs realized, rightfully, that the Soviets were not up to the task of protecting them from Israel.

After a similar experience by the Arabs in the October War, where they got their heads handed to them once again, at least Egypt had the good sense to order their Soviet Advisors out of the country.

Lebanon did also, and Syria did as well later, but much later.

So where's the downside with anything so far?

Nope, so far.

That is absurd. There was no military necessity for Israel to purposefully attack the USS Liberty, but, since this is a thread about How Israel Feels About US, you will need to start your very own thread if you desire to hash out the USS Liberty attack again.

I can assure you that I will not appear on your USS Liberty thread and attempt to change the subject.

Nor will I even appear. I already know what you are going to say.

And you already know what I am going to say.

So, come again, [u]how[/u] did I celebrate the attack on the USS Liberty?

Eric The(ExplainOrDelete)Hun[>]:)]

OTHERS introduced the USS Liberty in this context. But I would think the USS Liberty plays IMMENSELY into "How Israel Feels About us."



Again, OTHERS did that.



Someone raised the point that this dog and pony "simulation" pic of Sept 11 by the Israelis was staged / appeared on the anniversary of the USS Liberty.

Tending to NOT beleive in coincidence, I felt the Israelis were sending a message. Can't prove that so I'll let it go.

Given the fact you gloss over the attack on the Liberty with an "OOppss" and yell "Yahoo!!!!!" about Israels victory in the Six Day War, I drew my own conclusions.

I already DID delete the reference to celebrating the attack on the Liberty. I maintain you celebrate the Six Day War, and you have confirmed that.

As any military force would TAKE OUT a spy ship like the Liberty prowling around a theatre of operations like that of the Six Day War, I see the attack on the Liberty as INTIMATELY entwined with the Six Day War.

Beyond that, I don't know what you want me to do.

I give you my permission to delete my posts, in part or in whole, MOSTLY cuz I REALLY don't want to dance this dance anymore.

Post from garandman -

Nothing. Nothing more at all. Thanks for your kind reply.

Thanks, but I see no reason now to delete anything. I'll leave everything as it is.

But thank you for your gracious offer.

Eric The(TotallySatisfied)Hun[>]:)]

Kool.

We aim to please.

[:D]

BTW, I'd LOVE to get your thoughts on my "isolationism" thread.

Like me, you ALWAYS got an opinion. [:D]

The Attack On the USS Liberty was a mistake..
[url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/666475/posts[/url]
Original site without comments
[url]http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/liberty.html[/url]

[url]http://www.logogo.net/liberty.htm[/url]
The other side

Nice source dude - the "Jewish Virtual Library."


yeah, they'll be objective.

[}:D]

The ONLY mistake was in the US not retailiating. Made us Israels bitc....uh, lackey.

[:D]

well I know you dont want to hear Israelis side of the story...so what source could I possibly quote the would disagree with you that you would accept?
hmmm.....
What was Israels motive for the "deliberate attack" knowing full well the consequences of such an act...I have a tough time believing that it was a pre-emptive strike to keep the Liberty from relaying tactical data to the Arabs..and if the Liberty was relaying such info did the deck crew including the Captain even know what was going on in the itel pod?...

I agree with that. And RARELY does what "I like"  change the reality of a situation.  [:D]



Excellent question. There's VERY few people I would make such an emphatic statement about. Most of them I am INTIMATELY related to. HHhmmmmmm.....




You know, I hear that said over and over, but NEVER is anyone willing to put their money where their mouth is in that vein....

There is only ONE source that matters....the US sailors who were there.





And their opinion on the subject is pretty clear.

The US gov't, the Israeli gov't, eric, me, you, Sam Hill down the street - we weren't there, and prolly have an agenda.

The sailors on the USS Liberty had only one agenda - staying alive from a vicious, deliberate, calculated attack.

That's what they tell us. And its good enuf for me.

BTW, you may want to check with Eric is pursuing the USS Liberty issue, as he regards it as hijacking his thread.

His words, NOT mine.

[}:D]

The guys that were KIA AND WIA cant be the final authority in a charge of murder ...you are accusing the Israelis of murder...and even in US court the guilty are innocent until proven otherwise...no man can no anothers heart or intent..not even you...
you reduce the discussion to pure emotion and flag waving..and recommend that we should have destoyed Israel...your thoughts on Israel are well known
I feel they in fact mask some other agenda..but that is my opinion..
I still believe there is some evidence that what was going on inside the intelligence pod aboard the Liberty was beyond the knowledge and control of the deck crew including the Captain...and this is the well burried well kept secret of it all....
In your blindness to put this all on Israel and divide us from our only friend in the Middle East is confusing to me..I can only hope you are merely pig headed on this issue and mean no real malice to our country and its only true ally...I you can only hope the same from me...
cheers ..you old fart..

I have an answer, but it's not really one that I would lightly share with anyone.

But it concerns God's plan for His people, whether they be Jew or Gentile, or both.

The old rabbis used to say, 'Nothing was written in the scriptures, but of the Messiah', meaning that the whole purpose of the Torah, the Prophets, the entire Hebrew Bible, was to show and prepare the way for Messiah to come to His people.

[u]Nothing[/u] was written that didn't have [u]something[/u] to do with the Messiah.

I accept this wholeheartedly, and respond to the old rabbis' saying with 'Nothing was written in the Gospels, the Epistles, the Apocalypse, the entire New Testament, but of the Messiah, and of His return for His people.'

I believe that a group of Italians were gathered on the peninsula, to become a great nation, to conquer the known world and to arrive in the Holy Land, just in time to pass judgment on a Jewish political prisoner known as 'Jesus of Nazareth' and to condemn Him to death in probably the only manner of death found in the ancient world that would not necessarily break one of His bones! As the scriptures foretold.

This great nation not only succeeded thereby in producing the Death, Burial and Resurrection of the Lord in such manner, but by oppressing and persecuting the young Church thereafter, 'tried it by fire, and purified it' according to His will.

After such actions, darkly seen by mankind, then and now, as through a glass, that same great nation became the champion of the Man Whose Death they caused at Calvary and thereby opened a Way for all to receive eternal life through Him.

That same nation spread the Gospel and the Story of Christ, far and wide, with their own bloody fingerprints on the deed not hidden, but proclaimed to all!

Now, with all that in mind, should you not be surprised that the Lord Himself may have once again raised up a great nation, as before, to bring about the final consolation of the world through His Son, Jesus.

That the United States of America, founded in Christian, nay [u]Judeo-Christian[/u] morality and religion, was founded with His help to further spread the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to an unbelieving world.

That the Lord answered Gen George Washington's fervent prayers for his beaten, bleeding army in the snows of Valley Forge, cannot be denied.
By all rights and odds, our Revolution should have cratered within two or three years max.

But it didn't. It never has, and God help us, it never will! It continues to this very day in the hearts of its righteous citizenry.

- continued -

It is not without reason, therefore, that we had Christian missionaries in Afghanistan in the thick of it, and Christian missionaries in the Philippines in the thick of it!

We are, for better or worse, God's Hands in this world. There are others, but where can you find them in such abundance and so openly doing what Jesus, before the Cross, and after the Cross, asked His people to do...'[red][b]Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel...'[/b][/red], than in the United States?

And when the armies of darkness are encompassed about Judea and Samaria, and the Holy City, I, for one, am satisfied to the very depths of my soul that the defenders of that beautiful land and His Holy City, may carry weapons [b]'Made in the USA.'[/b]

If a [red][b]'glass of water given in My Name shall in no wise be forgotten...'[/b][/red], then what must Our Lord think of those who give the means of defense to those Whom He desires to be defended?

Sorry, I didn't mean to go so long, or so far afield, but I say simply what is in my heart.

Eric The(IHopeYouListen)Hun[>]:)]

I try like hell to stay out of these threads, but I'd like to point out a few things. If it wasn't for the Israelis destroying the Iraqi's reactor, Sadaam would have nukes. The attack was criticized here and abroad. In the Gulf War, more US soldiers were killed by friendly fire than enemy fire. Shit happens in war. We all heard about our accidental strike on Canadian forces a few weeks ago. And as far as foreign aid goes, you need to balance how much a country buys from the US against how much we provide. You also need to look at the value of testing US equipment in battle against Soviet equipment since 1973. That's the type of testing we could not have done here. Ask any aerospace defense professional and see how valuable this data was to our national interests. Then add up the FMS (Foreign Military Sales) dollars that have made the US the biggest defense supplier on earth as a result in Israel's successes against her enemies. This includes customers in the Arab world. The average Israeli has deep respect for America, and many have roots here. Balance that against the feelings in the Muslim world, were even well educated people from Malaysia to Algeria were tickled at Sept.11th. I respect the opinions of the isolationists, but am grateful they don't make US foreign policy. Now I'll go back to guns. Bye

I say Amen!, Brother [b]az_larry[/b]!

You said eveything I wanted to say in 10% of the space!

Eric The(WellDone!)Hun[>]:)]

No, but then they shouldn't be SILENCED by their own gov't as they were.




COMPLTELY FALSE. I DEFY you to document that claim. Either retract or admit you are lying. I charge them with an act of war. Murder is irrelevant in such a situation.




Foreign nations have NO right of access to the US courts system.



yeah, but I can look at the FACTS, and make a determination of intent. If I can't, you better close down those courts that you think foreign nations have access to.




Now THAT is funny. You say ***I **** am getting all emotional, and then you LIE and say I recommend we should "destroy" Israel.

Again, I DEFY you to find ANYWHERE I have ever said that. I said "retaliate" which has MANY possible alternatives. Does every retaliation "destroy" its target? hardly. Document your claim, or delete it, or be a LIAR. Your choice.



BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!LOL!!!! Didn't you JUST say " no man can no [sic] anothers heart or intent.." Try to get your own posts in control.



Opionions are like anuses. Everyone's got one, and often its full of crap.





Israel is a socialist country. As long as they continue as such, they are NOT my friend. EVER.

And then, lastly, you come down to the crux of your argument - hinting I mean malice to MY country, the USA. It ALWAYS boils down to that with you guys.

Why don't y'all just START and END with that - it'll save bandwidth.

You old fathead.

[rolleyes]

You show a gross ignorance of the facts.

The attack on the US Liberty did NOT occur in the "fog of war" as the examples you cite.

It happened on calm seas, in broad daylight, NOWHERE NEAR any hostile exchange of gunfire, after EIGHT flybys by Israeli jets, with US sailors waving to the Israeli pilots, against  a ship armed with ONLY a handful of 50 cal MG's, FOR A FRIGGEN HOUR AND FIFTEEN MINUTES LONG.

"Friendly fire " is over in a matter of seconds, if not fractions of seconds.

I STRONGLY urge you to get informed here, sir. CUz you plainly ARE NOT.

Israel is our ONLY true ally???

ONLY????

I doubt I should continue discussion with someone with so tenuous a grasp of the facts.

[}:D]

It's a good advice to know about facts.

You should follow the advice of not distorting the facts.
Simply, don't talk about things you cannot understand: religion and Israel.

Israel the only ally the US has?

Canada is in Afghanistan, and we have been since day one.

And while Israel killed innocent Americans and they said nothing...

[img]http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/ship1.gif[/img]

We Canada lost 4 of our men because one of your pilots fucked up, and yet Israel is your only real ally.

So keep taxing Canadian softwood lumber making our economy even worse and driving up the cost of houses over there, and keep not paying for electricity we sell you, cause we all know, Israel is your only real ally.

Paolo, you may very well be correct in that I once quoted $3.5 Billion as I've also stated the real number is difficult to ascertain.

Now Eric T. Hun provided a U.S. government source probably six or eight weeks ago that produced the $5.3 Billion number.  Plainly providing this source material was not in the best of the Hun's pro-Israeli stance but provide the data he did.  One of the problems in getting the hard information is the fact that some monies are given as loans but 'by U.S. Law', are designed not to be repaid.

The best information I have at this moment puts the number from U.S. taxpayers to the government of Israel at $5.3 Billion.
Plus another $200 Million so far this year to pay for the Israeli invasions.

Displays of ignorance such as yours is always welcome here.  

Please don't stay the hell out.

I guess cuz you say it, that makes it so????

My bad.

Peace, Paolo.

[}:D]

Wouldn't this reply fall into the catgory of completely avoiding the discussion of the facts in favor of attacking someone's understanding of an issue(without, of course, providing any facts to back up that attack, either)?

Juggernaut

Even *** I  ***** give Canada more props than to assert Israel is America's "only true ally."

S. Crow,
I don't know what to say.

While I put my country first, quickly follow Britain and Canada.  Allies for many, many years.  
Somehow I always think of D Day with the Brits, Canadians, and the U.S. aligned on those beaches....................

In the entire world, Israel has one ally - the United States.  Israel, in my opinion, is ally to no one.

Are y'all now finished with my 'USS Liberty' thread?

Next time, go post your own GD thread on the USS Liberty![:D]

I know that I will never show up there to divert it to any current events in the news!

But thanks for making this thread everything that it is!

The title of your next threads should be something along the lines of [b]'How Israel Really Felt About Us in 1967'[/b] or possibly [b]'How President Johnson Really Felt About US Navy Personnel in 1967'[/b] or even possibly [b]'How High Ranking Officers in the US Navy Really Felt About the Sailors Serving Under Them in 1967 and Thereafter'![/b]

Now, don't you think those titles are more appropriate to your views?[:D]

Eric The([b]Bastids![/b])Hun[>]:)]

Ooooh...oooh...oooh....how about -

[b]"How US Senior Military Officials felt about US saliors getting bombed back into the Stone Ages by nearsighted israeli Pilots whose astigmatism caused them to misidentify a clearly marked US ship for and hour and fifteen minute long 'friendly fire' attack, with torpedo boats, spitwads, and rockets and then deny the whole thing in spite of the obvious facts"[/b]

Great thread title, but I beleive it has too many charachters.

But since you are a Mod, maybe you can get site administrators to work on they fer me???

K????

[:D]

Sorry, [b]garandman[/b], but 'Senior US Military Officials' have continuously 'covered up' for Israel's attack on the USS Liberty by ordering their rescue planes back to the carriers, not once but twice, during the attack, and ordering all of the US Naval Personnel involved to remain silent about what they saw, heard, etc., concerning their accounts of the attack.

And conducting Boards of Inquiry that failed to render a verdict that supports your view.

But enough USS Liberty on this thread, when are you going to start your own thread, whatever you may wish to call it, on this subject?

You know, the thread that I will not come to?

Do you have it in you to do that?

Eric The(Hmmm?When?)Hun[>]:)]

Sorry, but I had so many discussion with this (Garand)man that I KNOW what I mean. If I should put facts, I should put URLS of many post-n-reply, so many that there would be a whole forum only for this. Why mentioning facts with someone that, when put in the corner, can only say: "You are slandering meeeee... you caaaan'tttt" but is keeping such a doctoral and arrogant behaviour mentioning such a distorted interpretation of the Bible, mentioning facts (like a supposed lackness of freedom of religion in Israel...) or many others thing that anyone could see in the past, having only the patience to read our previous posts.
Maybe you didn't read them, of course you had something else and better to do, I understand, and maybe I should try to shoot more with my AR15 than to try, all the times, to confutate the sick statements that Garandman is making.

Sorry for the long post...

Best quote I ever heard on that is that gov't studies / boards of inquiry / investigations are meant to advance an agenda, NOT to uncover truth.





Your thread title is "How Israel Really Feels About us." Silly me for thinking 800 rockets, a half dozen torpedoes, and an hour and fifteen minute long shooting gallery by astigmatic Israeli pilots with the USS Liberty as the target has anything to do with their felings toward us. Cuz it has LOTS to do with my feelings toward them!!!!! [}:D]

I was drawn into the USS Liberty discussion by others initially, and then your pro-Israel cronies KEEP dredging it up in this thread.

Take it up with them. Why you hammerin' me 'bout it????

Besides, I'm waiting for you to change the thread title charachter  limit so I can fit my chosen thread title in it.

Lemme know when U got that squared away.
[:D]

Was Eric was trying to show with those pictures is something, in the aftermath of the 9-11 attack, I saw with my eyes in Israel, at Tel Aviv Rabin's Square, with a BIG MANIFESTATION of support and solidariety with the USA from Israelis. They even sang the US National Anthem before their own!
I have many pictures of that event, included the one of two policemen riding a bike with two flags, one USA and one Israeli. I had a US Flag in my home that I bought in that occasion in Israel, and when other people (ITALY INCLUDED!!!) where dancing of joy for the attacks, and were criticating G.W.Bush for his war on terror I was waving out of my window a US flag to show that I am not in the sheeple that believe that freedom and peace can be obtained without those that make the dirty job!

I asked millions time HOW MANY OTHER TIMES Israel attacked any other US troops or citiziens after the USS Liberty... you know how many answer I got? ZERO plus ZERO plus ZERO! Got it?

And when I can read your mind, this might prove a fruitful discussion.[:D]




Well, for the EIGHT HUNDREDTH time, I invite you to discuss those interpretations, RATHER THAN just calling them "distorted."

I'm imagining there WILL BE an 801st. [}:D]



I can and HAVE documented that very fact, from PERSONAL accounts, NOT news stories.





Do you consider ALL opposing viewpoints "sick?" Or just MY opposing viewpoints??? [}:D]

If they are so sick, use FACTS to disprove them, RATHER THAN just calling them sick. Everybody is waiting to hear all your good arguments (other than "Garandman is wrong. Trust me, I'm sure of it."

OOooppss!!!! Can't mention the USS Liberty in Erics thread. he SAID SO!!!!!!!!

he wants you to start YOUR OWN thread to do that.

At least that's the rules he's applied to me. Or wait....maybe he applies different rulz to different people. Naaaaaahhhh....couldn't be.

[}:D]

Post from garandman -

That, jacka**, is pure bullsh|t!  You live for these moments you friggin dweeb![:D] And even after [b]subsailor[/b] has stopped at my request, you keep it up!

Post your own GD thread!

C'mon garandman, be a mensch![:D]

Eric The(TiredOfThisBS)Hun[>]:)]

Are you calling [i] moi [/i] a "jackass??" O great Moderator, keeper of the peace, non-incitor of pissing matches???? Methinks the king has no clothes!!!!!

Especially when pro_Israel Paolo JUST brought the USS Liberty UP AGAIN? Ahhh, but he agrees with your postion, so its OK for him!!!!!

And when az_larry agreed with your postion, bringing up (indirectly) the Liberty, you give him kudos!!!!!

But when I bring up the Liberty (in a dissenting opinion) THEN its off limits????

Talk about double standards!!!!

besides, subslr just eggs me on, and gets me going, then ducks out when the EricThe(HissyFit) Hun starts screeching.  Dang that subslr!!!!  [:D]

What's a mensch??? Its Jewish fer suttin', ain't it????

Speaking on behalf of "The Cronies"
If G-man ever develops the same fondness for rice as he has for "Jewish Ryr Bread"
We will ever be harrangued by his lamentations over Nagasaki and Hiroshima?

G-----man,

Mensch is yiddish (and German) for "man". It's normally used to denote someone who is an adult and acts like an adult.  It's not an insult.

Now THAT is funny!!!!!LOL!!!

Trouble is, I already like rice, even brown rice. With butter and salt, mostly. Not so much on the rice puddin'. Some things just AIN'T supposed to be desserts.

[:D]


And I STILL say we shoulda bombed the craps out the japs. Saved alotta lives. Ours and theirs.

Are you gonna retract yer false claims about me accusing the Israelis of murder, and wanting to destroy Israel???? Or did you think it'd die down if you just ignored it???

Also, have you checked with Eric to make sure your posts content passes his varying standards for this thread??? NUTHIN' I post seems to please our meddling Moderator. Strangely, when others post on the same subject (but opposing my opinion) he doesn't seem to mind.

Odd, that.

[}:D]

Thanks for the clarification sham.

No mebbe you can explain why when *** I **** post about the USS Liberty, Eric says I should be a "man" and start my own thread, but when the pro_Israel folks bring up the USS Liberty in this thread, he doesn't object???

I'm so confuzzed!!!!

I'm just a simple country boy, and this one's got me stumped.

[:D]

Thanks for re-posting my Greatest Hits, Eric!!!!!

When will I be receiving my royalty check????

[:D]