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Posted: 6/7/2002 12:29:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2002 12:34:19 AM EDT by tatjana]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 12:30:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2002 12:35:21 AM EDT by tatjana]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 12:31:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 12:31:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 12:32:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2002 12:32:37 AM EDT by tatjana]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 12:49:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2002 12:51:39 AM EDT by Boomer]
Originally Posted By tatjana: I also want to add something on a personal note- The tenor and nature of comments directed at me and others on the thread that started this all [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=122020[/url] are childish, inappropriate and in several cases clearly violate the forum code of conduct which provides in part: 1) No racial slurs or comments. This isn't about being "PC" it's about respecting each other. and 7) No personal attacks towards ANYONE. In particular, the comments from progun, AlClenin, shooter69 and especially Boomer and The_Macallan, were far out of line. Know this: I'm not going to tolerate that here. Personal attacks directed at me or any ethnic group are out of line, against the conduct code and will be dealt with. I have gone out of my way to contribute to the United States. I have happily adopted it and it's citizens as my home and brothers and sisters. Every dollar I spend here goes directly to the trade balance as every dollar I spend here was made outside the United States. I probably pay more in U.S. taxes than my critics on that thread combined. I am STILL prone to tears if I see a folded U.S. flag, and at ballgames during the national anthem. I WILL avail myself of that uniquely American right and privilege, free speech. I do it responsibly and without personal attack. If you can't handle that or address my points without insulting me, profanity, rudeness or ad homimen attacks, I will make quite certain that you no longer have a forum here to conduct yourself in that fashion. If that's not clear enough for you feel free to ask me directly for clarification. You can email me at tatjana@ar15.com.
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Listen here, if you're going to a tell a story, be sure to tell the WHOLE story. Why don't we take a look at what precipated the so-called "attacks" (And, yes, you must really be a sensitive, PC type of individual to define those as attacks):
Originally Posted By imposter: I'd like to see you live in the Soviet Union in the 1970 for a few years, and then if you survived come here and say we have it bad.
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Originally Posted By tatjana: Oh, why should I? See, I came to the U.S. to avoid all that. Seems that was a waste, as the U.S. is at the same level now. Congrads.
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There you have it. You just congratulated us for now being on the same level as the Soviet union was 30 years ago. And golly gee, you wonder why some of took extreme offense at your opinion and tell you what you can do with it. I don't usually like to say this, but you are a guest in our country. If it's really that bad for you, go back to Switzerland or wherever it is that the people get chills up their spines about what goes on here in the US. We don't need your money or your snobby, condescending attitude about however much you happen to pay in taxes. In short, we shouldn't have to tolerate guests behaving as rude and offensively as you chose to. If you want to tell someone how to run their country, try doing it in your own.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 12:53:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 12:54:07 AM EDT
Pretty heated comments on that thread. A lot of third-grade education opinions.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 12:59:24 AM EDT
Again another will thought out post on your part. Additionally, people forget that we have two borders which are [b]NOT[/b] surrounded by water, WHAT would keep terrorist from arriving in Mexico or Canada then crossing the border??? It is done all of the time from Mexico and no one has ever thought about Canada - even easier if you ask me as there fewer border patrol along that border. Another thought, recently here in California we had a group of Chinese land upon one of our beaches, illegally. What would stop a well prepared group of terrorist from doing the same???? In all of the mentioned scenarios all the terrorist would need is just a large sum of cash. Having this they could rent rooms to live, buy food, etc. They would be impossible to track as there would be no record of their entry into the United States. Considering the money they do have access to via Al Queda/Bin Laden, etc.. they could live here easily and purchase all they would need to commit more acts of terrorism. ------------------------------------------------ Finger printing, if they are dead they could careless about that! Who would check and track them anyway??
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 1:01:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2002 1:19:41 AM EDT by Boomer]
Originally Posted By tatjana: I never violated the conduct code. You did. Quite clearly. Matters not how upset you were by what I said here. It does not give you license to make personal attacks.
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Personal attacks? Whatever. If you honestly consider ANYTHING I've ever posted in response to you a personal attack, you really are thin skinned and hyper-sensitive. I'll let my words stand as my witness to that. And yes, your blood boiling opinion of America DOES matter. You don't get to make offensive, inflammatory remarks like that and then run crying to the moderators when you can't handle the inevitable responses. Edited to add that if I'm guilty of some sort of Forum Conduct Code violation, then you must be as well: [b]6) Pure trolling. Either to piss someone off or simply for your personal enjoyment.[/b] I believe that aptly fits your chosen description of America. Quite well.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 1:05:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2002 2:36:53 AM EDT by Shadowblade]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 1:12:45 AM EDT
Fingerprinting foreigners wishing to visit the US should only be one facet of a defensive system. A deterrent. No one ever said it was a solitary silver bullet for defending ourselves. We need to strengthen security along our sea and land borders as well. Why not put our stateside military forces to better use in this role instead of simply garrisoning them? If a foreigner doesn't want to be fingerprinted, I don't believe anyone is forcing them to come here.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 3:55:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Buddha: Pretty heated comments on that thread. A lot of third-grade education opinions.
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3rd Grade?....He! He! He! Try none.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 4:13:16 AM EDT
I only want to add.......there are attempted border crossings almost daily.....most of you probably don`t hear about......it would not be difficult to do.....especially if well thought out......apparent increase in patrols etc....but there are so many access points.........who knows how many get across undetected......a lot is my guess...niagara river at night?.....seems too easy..............
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 4:14:47 AM EDT
I refrained from posting my opinions in the other thread. But since it has come up again... I don't think fingerprinting is the solution. I was thinking something more like a GPS tracking dog collar with microphones and a remotely detonated C4 pack. I have a good friend (US citizen) who lives and works in Turkey. Let me tell you what US citizens endure if they plan on staying in an Arab nation for longer than 30 days. Fingerprinting is kindergarden compared to some of the surveillance that goes on.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 4:41:12 AM EDT
Personally, I don't see fingerprinting alone as being that useful, and the thought of fingerprinting with tracking is scary, as you know eventually it will apply to everyone. This stuff is far too Orwellian for me. However, I do believe the time has come for us to abandon this stupidity of free rights for everyone. As long as we confer the same benefits to everyone, regardless of immigration status, why the hell should anyone even bother to apply for citizenship? We need to have a system of tiers. Anyway, this is another topic altogether. BTW, your comment, "...appease a population screaming for foreign blood." was a cheap shot. You can do better than that.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 5:14:59 AM EDT
You know what? I, for one, don't really care whether fingerprinting works or not. It's something that every other country in the world does for one reason or the other, but let's not try and determine now whether or not it will or won't work. [b]Let's just require it![/b] First off, it's our house, our rules! Screw anyone who doesn't like [b][u]our[/u] rules![/b] If your own GD country wasn't good enough for you to stay there, or if this country offers you something that you couldn't find there in your homeland, then don't show up on our doorstep asking for us to change [b][u]our[/u] rules[/b] for your personal comfort and benefit, or to make you feel 'less threatened' or 'harassed'! I'd like to see a US History exam or an English proficiency test given for [u]visitors[/u] at our borders, but I know that won't happen! Retaliation by other countries? Bwahahahahaha!Don't make me laugh! [b]They come here simply because the United States is the 'City of Rome' in the 21st Century![/b] If you lived in the First Century after the Birth of Christ, wouldn't you get your butt to Rome if you had any snap in your drawers? There's an old saying from the Common Law that comes to mind here: [b]The cottage may be so rickety that the wind blows through it with ease, the roof so rotted that the rain freely pours down, but the King of England, seeking entry, must first ask 'May I?'[/b] That's what we're all about! No one can come into our house without first asking 'May I?' And if our traditions are that you take your shoes off, bow to the totem pole, kiss the mezuzah, or whatever, then it must be done! On a side note, you know the 1200 Middle Eastern nationals that were detained and interrogated by the FBI following Sept 11? I wonder how many 'second strikes' may have been averted, not so much that anyone of note may have been detained, not even a bit player, but because the evil terrorists knew that the US was back in the game and quite possibly watching them? And when we cease to do so, then will the 'second strike' come! Let's rid this country of all non-citizens who wish us and our country harm. Period. And violating the conditions of their visit here, like overstaying, is 'harming' us. And if we have to do it one visa-abusing alien at a time, so be it! But let's just get started! Eric The(Now!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 5:20:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 5:40:56 AM EDT
In the original post, I think JIMBEAM stated we should fingerprint everyone as part of the VISA process, run a background check at that end, and then when they arrive in the US, fingerprint them again to match their body with the person who applied for the VISA overseas. I am all for that approach. At least that way you can tell the person who was granted the VISA is the actual person in front of you today. But, if the plan is just to fingerpring people when they arrive, I don't know. Maybe it's part of a larger plan. Hopefully, that plan won't include fingerprinting everyone. Anyway, without some sort of tracking, I'm not sure how it can help. One good point Bush made in his speech is we have to keep our eyes and ears open, to be on the lookout for things that don't look right. To that ends, we need universal CCW for every American citizen.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 5:52:09 AM EDT
Post from VA-gunnut -
I am suggesting we are like the old Soviet Union but we are heading down that road. Anyone who would suggest that we should give up freedoms for protection absolutely has no clue.
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Gee, up to this point I thought we were only talking about foreign nationals from 'suspect' countries who were [u]legally[/u] trying to enter our country. If you are an American citizen, you will be waved on through the fingerprinting and dog-collaring (Thanks, [b]BenDover[/b]) station! No one [u]here[/u], I believe, is talking about giving up rights as citizens. But if we don't get a handle on our country's borders soon, and I mean real soon, then there may be talk of reducing our citizens' rights. And if we can nip [u]that[/u] in the bud by doing what is right, the first time, then dammit let's do it! I'm too old to wear a dog collar! Eric The(Passionate)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 6:10:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 6:23:16 AM EDT
Well, as we can see from the visa-extension approval letters that Mohammad Atta and one of his 18 co-hijackers received six months [u]after[/u] Sept 11th, the legal entry into this country is where we are the weakest! The illegal entry into this country has been going on for years without anyone really wanting to stop it. [b]Now some of us do![/b] We will either have to take control of our borders, militarily, if necessary, one day soon, or just be prepared to see Jihad come to America! I vote for the military at our borders, with orders to shoot first, ask questions later! Eric The(Serious)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 6:26:09 AM EDT
When I was 17 years old, I had to submit to fingerprinting and a background check just to enlist, serve, and defend this great country of ours. From a security standpoint, I don't see why we should afford foreigners any greater privileges than we do our own GIs. So fingerprinting isn't the end all/be all solution for identifying and stopping terrorist. No one ever claimed it to be. That doesn't mean that it can't be a useful tool in an arsenal of many to help positively identify and track the movements into and out of the country of suspiscious people and prevent another attack. If we are going to wait for the perfect single solution to the problem, we might as well invite them over and suggest appropriate targets.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 6:27:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2002 6:30:36 AM EDT by GodBlessTexas]
Let's see... We've had people in those terror training camps in Afghanistan for the last 8 months... We've had people inside the caves in the Afghani mountains... We've had people in the homes of those who were part of the Taliban and Al Qeda in Afghanistan... Who here thinks they weren't lifting fingerprints from those locations? However, it doesn't get those who aren't from those countries that knowingly support terrorists. As a primary example, Richard Reid was from Great Brittain and wasn't an arab. It also doesn't stop those who directly circumvent the border, like the foxnews journalist who walked back and forth across the US/Canadian border undetected. But it's a step, and anyone who thinks the administration sees this as some sort of panacea (see, there's that third grade education again), is sorely mistaken. The next step needs to be securing the borders. Unfortunately, that's a huge job. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 6:40:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 6:52:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tatjana: I also want to add something on a personal note- The tenor and nature of comments directed at me and others on the thread that started this all [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=122020[/url] [red]are childish, inappropriate[/red] and in several cases clearly violate the forum code of conduct which provides in part: 1) No racial slurs or comments. This isn't about being "PC" it's about respecting each other. and 7) No personal attacks towards ANYONE. In particular, the comments from progun, AlClenin, shooter69 and especially Boomer and The_Macallan, were far out of line. Know this: I'm not going to tolerate that here. Personal attacks directed at me or any ethnic group are out of line, against the conduct code and will be dealt with. I do it responsibly and without personal attack. If you can't handle that or address my points without insulting me, profanity, rudeness or ad homimen attacks, I will make quite certain that you no longer have a forum here to conduct yourself in that fashion. If that's not clear enough for you feel free to ask me directly for clarification. You can email me at tatjana@ar15.com.
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Why don't [b]YOU[/b] IM [b]US[/b] if you have personal problems with our "childish" comments. (hey, isn't that a personal attack on us)?? You call our comments "childish and inappropriate" but we can't call your comments "irrational, ignorant or illogical hyperbole"??? More prattling tripe... your comments, not you - see the difference? [>:/] No, I have and will continue to disagree with you and characterize what you WROTE in the same way you just did to us by calling our comments "childish and inappropriate". I CAN call your comments "irrational, ignorant, BOG-like, prattling tripe" because that's not a "PERSONAL" attack - it's a criticism of your comments, not you as a person. Sheeesh! How petty. But if you want to take it off line... check your IM.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 7:03:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: But if you want to take it off line... check your IM.
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What? She didn't send you a terse little e-mail, too? Aww, gee, I guess I'm so special. [:)]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 7:24:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tatjana: I have gone out of my way to contribute to the United States. I have happily adopted it and it's citizens as my home and brothers and sisters. Every dollar I spend here goes directly to the trade balance as every dollar I spend here was made outside the United States. I probably pay more in U.S. taxes than my critics on that thread combined. I am STILL prone to tears if I see a folded U.S. flag, and at ballgames during the national anthem.
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That is cool. DrMark
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 7:31:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 7:41:09 AM EDT
Tactics in this war will have to be innovative. "Bomber Harris" in WWII fire-bombed non-strategic targets in the early days. Eventually when US air power came on and fighters could protect long range missions, strategic sites were hit. Fire bombing was successful in a limited sense....lots of German towns were decimated. It had to do some moral damage to Germany and give some courage to the Brits. Amazingly after the war the Brits turned on Bomber Harris. Horrified at the death and destruction of civilians the bombings had caused, they latched onto the old saw that there were rules and of all the British commanders, he alone was not honored with Knighthood. We apparently thought enough of the idea to fire bomb Tokyo with much the same results. A lot of war is about breaking the enemy's will and keeping up your own. The faint of heart do not appreciate this and quickly forget.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 7:48:41 AM EDT
I would like to thank you, tatjana, for the thoughtful and intelligent analysis of this proposal, to fingerprint foreigners. This would be, like seat belt laws, and many other things, beginning of more onerous things to come... I for one do not want to live in a country with internal passports, "your papers, please" ("please", from a guy carrying a machine gun, hah!). This would just be a softening up for, "Well, we have to do SOMETHING!" as they soften say. Then , they will be back for, "We can't make it work unless we do it to everybody, and do more." And first thing you know, you are living in a high tech Nazi Germany.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:20:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2002 8:37:27 AM EDT by DJbump]
Posted by tatjana-- As citizens/non-immigrants are not printed in the proposed scheme all one needs to do to avoid a check is pose as a citizen. -------- EXACTLY. Just like loopholes in gun-legislation, this is one of the MAIN things to focus on. This will be used as a justification to FINGERPRINT ALL FOLKS. If this fingerprinting scheme is put into practice, there will be highly publicized instances of the holes in the plan, and plans will be put forth to close the "loophole" to begin fingerprinting ALL FOLKS whether citizen or non-citizen, Muslim or non-Muslim. But logic and fact do not seem to work here, unfortunately. Otherwise intelligent and discerning folks have been worked into a lather and have and will continue to call for the eradication of all Muslims from the face of the earth for the actions of a few.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:27:13 AM EDT
No offense, [b]A_Free_Man[/b], but if we don't nip this little Jihad in the bud, quickly and with a minimum of pain to American citizens, it will come to something far, far worse than we have witnessed here for a long time. Ever. Not even the Civil War would have produced such a profound effect on our nation. Just let a suitcase nuke get into this country and go off in a heavily populated area, and there will be no more Constitution for a very long time! Sad, but true. If you think the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII was an unconstitutional act, well, you ain't seen nothing yet! Imagine instead of Pearl Harbor in faraway Hawaii, those planes had been sinking US warships in San Diego and San Francisco harbors, and strafing the civilian population there, to boot! The Japanese Americans would have insisted on being interned for the duration for their own safety! Not a very pretty picture, but if Sept 11th and Oklahoma City can affect us the way they did, just multiply that by a factor of 20, or 50, or 100, if something nuclear or biological happens on our soil! I should know, I'll be out at my Farm and believe me, you'd better have 'papers' if you want to be coming down my Farm road! And your papers will avail you nothing if the group of Huns vote you 'off the island.' Eric The(StartingFromScratch)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:35:03 AM EDT
All - Take the time to read this article. I think it fits in nicely with this thread. [url]http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110001808[/url]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:42:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:50:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:55:37 AM EDT
When will America no longer be America? So far, at 29, I have managed not to be fingerprinted - ever.
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I have a VERY hard time believing that. You probably were fingerprinted as a child, and you don't remember. Your state doesn't require prints to purchase a firearms?
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:59:52 AM EDT
Post from tatjana -
Yes but the question is, will my papers be accepted? Are foreigners invited?
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[u]Your[/u] papers are always in order in my book, Ma'am![:D] As a matter of fact, [u]you[/u] will be a voting member of the West Texas Huns! And no Huns will ever be 'voted off the island'! We're all foreigners when the balloon goes up! Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:01:23 AM EDT
You saying that you will not respond to anyone on this post is the most stuck up thing I've ever heard! Basically your saying, "hey guys, everything I said here is correct, if you want to talk to me, deal with the authorities". Lead by example, eh? Your attitude sounds like the attitude of our great leaders like Sarah Brady, and rosie O'Donnell, all elitist.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:04:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tatjana: Fingerprinting a given group simply isn't going to prevent terrorism.
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[u]Flaw In Your Understanding #1[/u] - No one ever said fingerprinting [b]ALONE[/b] will "prevent terrorism"
Originally Posted By Tatjana: The belief that it will stems from 5 logical flaws in the arguments offered by those who support the plan. 1. That fingerprinting only a certain subset of people will be effective in stopping terrorism. 2. That fingerprinting will act as a deterrent.
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See Flaw In Your Understanding #1.
Originally Posted By Tatjana: 3. That monitoring internal movements in the United States of foreigners with fingerprints is effective, or possible.
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[u]Flaw In Your Understanding #2[/u] - We haven't heard yet how the Gov't will USE these fingerprints so you're citicizing efforts that weren't even suggested. At this point the fingerprinting of these immigrants is simply a means of better identification. The same could be said of fingerprinting: * cops, * school teachers, * day-care workers, * child-protective-service workers, * military personnel, * certain federal employees * private contractors of the Gov't. with security clearances, * precious metals traders, * VA employees, * certain healthcare workers, * firefighters, * pharmacists, * Foster parent applicants * adoption applicants, * FFL & CCW applicants, * INS permanent residency applicants... MAYBE you're missing the big picture. Fingerprinting ITSELF isn't going to STOP any terrorist activity any more than simply eavesdropping on Al Qaida emails. But it's just one more bit of information that can be used to begin to identify WHO is passing our legally borders. Do you object to trying to better identify who is legally entering our country - starting with immigrants with likely terrorist origins?
Originally Posted By Tatjana: 4. That fingerprinting is a "100%" pure method of identification.
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[u]Flaw In Your Understanding #3[/u] - No one ever said is was "100%". Who are you quoting with that "100%" figure? But if you can name a better and logistically realistic method of identifying large numbers of people quickly, let's hear it.
Originally Posted By Tatjana: 5. That fingerprinting is only used for identification.
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Okay. Obviously it doesn't stop crime, it's simply an investigative tool. So what? Should all law enforcement stop taking fingerprints because that doesn't stop any crime??? On the whole, I agree with your assessments of how to BETTER combat domestic terrorists. If you've seen other posts of mine (and I think you have [;)]), you'd know I share your opinion (and exceed them in zeal) regarding our borders, intelligence and immigrant identification. I just think you're having a knee-jerk reaction to the word "fingerprint" and missing the big picture - fingerprints are just one small investigative tool, not the end-all-and-be-all of stopping terrorism.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:05:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MurderSHO45: You saying that you will not respond to anyone on this post is the most stuck up thing I've ever heard! Basically your saying, "hey guys, everything I said here is correct, if you want to talk to me, deal with the authorities". Lead by example, eh? Your attitude sounds like the attitude of our great leaders like Sarah Brady, and rosie O'Donnell, all elitist.
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To be fair, I believe she was refering to her charges against a few of us as having somehow "personally attacked" her. She made a very outrageous comment about America in another thread, which obviously drew some pointed responses. Of course, now she calls foul. I think it was not a very wise poor choice on her part to make this a confusing, two subject thread. She should seperate the two issues.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:07:38 AM EDT
Post from MurderSHO45 -
I have a VERY hard time believing that.
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Lord, I was, let's see, 46 years old when I was [u]first[/u] fingerprinted in 1998 to obtain my CHL (CCW) license in Texas! I only did it to get around the Brady law when purchasing firearms. If you had suggested fingerprinting children in Texas during the 1950s when I was growing up, you'd have been laughed at, then lynched! Eric The(IReallyThoughtLongAndHardAboutDoingIt,Too­!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:21:33 AM EDT
I think many of the "pro-fingerprint" people are forgetting something. I personally have no problem with making foreigners submit finger prints as they enter the country. That is a mild inconvenience to them. What I do have a problem with is the system that would be required for fingerprinting to be useful. Fingerprinting check points would have to be set up. We would all have to submit to these fingerpointing check points otherwise a potential terrorist could breeze right through a check point with a fake ID which indicated citizenship. I'm 25 and never have been fingerprinted. Call me paranoid, but I don't want those on record despite my lack of criminal activity. I agree with tatjana that rather then subject the citizens of this country to a brave new world, it be more logical to step up intellegence gathering both on and off of US soil.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:22:26 AM EDT
Here is how I think the fingerprinting should work: Fingerprinting is done at or outside the borders and only to non-citizens wishing to enter the country. Outside the border, the print is put into the data base along with your information. At the border, the print is used as part of a background check before we wave you through (yes, with the right equipment we could check prints against a database almost instantly). No this won't stop all people, but it will increase the difficulty quite a bit once a good database is built. The goal here is to plug up the holes in the legal entry points as well as can be done---[b]without trampling on the rights of CITIZENS[/b]. This should not involve "internal passport" type checks. It should only be a screen for those wishing to enter the country to pass though. So now you say "but what about illegal border crossings such as mexicans, and chinese swimming ashore". We'll, it sure seems easy now, but suppose we start putting a shitload of men on the border with guns and start shooting people who try to cross. No this won't make it impossible to cross, but it will make it much harder. Right now what is done to mexicans that get caught? They're trucked back across the border to try again another day. Shoot a few and all but the most determined will think twice about attempting a crossing. Measures such as this will not prevent [b]all[/b] terrorists from entering the country, but they will make it much harder, and all without stepping on the rights of citizens. As for the ultra-determined who make it through despite our new more secure borders? Well, putting up with them once they've made it through is the cost of being free I guess--hopefully the folks in law enforcement will stop some of them without resorting to unconstitutional police state methods.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:23:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2002 9:35:46 AM EDT by The_Macallan]
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By tatjana: If you can't handle that or address my points without insulting me, [red]profanity, rudeness or[/red] ad homimen attacks, [red]I will make quite certain that you no longer have a forum here[/red] to conduct yourself in that fashion. If that's not clear enough for you feel free to ask me directly for clarification. You can email me at tatjana@ar15.com.
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...since the above was publicly posted, I (and others, I assume) would like a public clarification of the quote above.
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I second that. No profanity??? No rudeness??? [b]BULLSHIT!![/b] Where is "no profanity" or "no rudeness" written in the FCCs?? I've taken my beef with Tat offline so that's that, but her heavy-handed publically-stated threat here to ban anyone who uses profanity or who is rude to her REALLY needs a retraction or at best a clarifying statement from her.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:27:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tatjana: Yes but the question is, will my papers be accepted? Are foreigners invited?
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It depends. Do you have a history of terrorist activity or any affiliation with know terrorists or terrorist organizations? If not, then what's your worry? Using your logic, no one should join the US military because they have to be fingerprinted when doing so.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:33:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AlClenin: Here is how I think the fingerprinting should work: Fingerprinting is done at or outside the borders and only to non-citizens wishing to enter the country. Outside the border, the print is put into the data base along with your information. At the border, the print is used as part of a background check before we wave you through (yes, with the right equipment we could check prints against a database almost instantly). No this won't stop all people, but it will increase the difficulty quite a bit once a good database is built. The goal here is to plug up the holes in the legal entry points as well as can be done---[b]without trampling on the rights of CITIZENS[/b]. This should not involve "internal passport" type checks. It should only be a screen for those wishing to enter the country to pass though.
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Yup, our aim should be striving to positively know who we are allowing into the country before letting them in to roam about in relative freedom. Fingerprinting is simply one of the tools used to accomplish that. And hwo come no one seems to want to answer the "If it's okay for our GIs, why not foreigners as well" question?
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:40:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: I've taken my beef with Tat offline so that's that, but her heavy-handed publically-stated threat here to ban anyone who uses profanity or who is rude to her REALLY needs a retraction or at best a clarifying statement from her.
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If it comes down to a vote, make mine for full retraction, including her statement that started it all. That was really uncalled for.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:50:32 AM EDT
Damn, ya'll are worse than Steyr and me. Boomer, check your email.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:51:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2002 10:35:27 AM EDT by AlClenin]
Originally Posted By Boomer:
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: I've taken my beef with Tat offline so that's that, but her heavy-handed publically-stated threat here to ban anyone who uses profanity or who is rude to her REALLY needs a retraction or at best a clarifying statement from her.
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If it comes down to a vote, make mine for full retraction, including her statement that started it all. That was really uncalled for.
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As far as I'm concerned she can piss off. I can't even find a post of mine in the original thread in which I replied to her directly, yet she mentioned me here. Unless you are posting under another name I did not "personally attack you". Maybe I should demand an apology from this [edited] easily offended female[edited].
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:11:01 AM EDT
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