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Posted: 6/5/2002 10:05:59 PM EDT
As everyone knows, the German Stg-44 was the daddy of the AK-47, and therefore the father of all modern military rifles. Has anyone here ever seen an Stg-44 in person, fondled one, owned one, of even shot one? I'd like to know how it rates.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 5:43:20 AM EDT
I've handled one. I haven't shot one, as ammo is not exactly cheap. They are heavy, the handguards are stamped steel and would get pretty darn hot, fast. The recoil is supposed to be light, and it's supposed to be very controllable. I thought it was a pretty cool gun overall. The concept itself is a phenomenal leap in the firepower direction. I would say that there are many better guns for the mission now days, but I've seen footage of sone guy in Algeria armed with one as late as 1998. E. Germans sent boatloads of them to Africa to further the Comunist cause. It would be some serious bragging rights to have said you carried one around. Ross
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 5:58:26 AM EDT
friend had one, i've fired it. not especially pleasant, clunky, heavy, lousy finish. like most "first of it's kind"s, it's not ideal. ar or ak is much nicer to shoot.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 6:02:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By blackmanta: As everyone knows, the German Stg-44 was the daddy of the AK-47................
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I'm obviously the last to get the word as I didn't know this fact. Still don't.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 6:15:25 AM EDT
I once read where someone asked Mikhail Kalashnikov the question about whether his weapon was based upon the Stg-44, and his answer was almost unprintable! Seems he does not think so. Eric The(But,Then...)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 6:17:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: I'm obviously the last to get the word as I didn't know this fact. Still don't.
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Are you saying that you didn't know it, or that you dont' believe it? The StG44 was probably the first 'assault rifle' ever made. Find a picture of it, and you'll be amazed at how much it looks like an AK-47. Or I should say, how much an AK-47 looks like it. Banana clip, gas port on the TOP of the bbl, tall front sight post, pistol grip... Hitler didn't like the idea, because he didn't want his industrial power weakened by having to manufacture a whole different cartridge. Development of the cartridge and weapon went on under Hitler's nose, and when it came to light, several of his subordinates had to BEG him to give it a chance. They armed his personal guards with the StG44, and gave him a demonstration, and he was turned. It was chambered in the 8mm kurzpatrone (short cartridge) which was an 8x33mm case. Just a shortened 8mm cartridge filled with pistol powder. The handguards were stamped metal, and did tend to heat up rather quickly, so most of the soldiers that used it held it at the magazine well. Not surprisingly accurate, but it was efficient. It was also sometimes equipped with a bent barrel for shooting around corners (no shit, I've seen pictures of the setup!!) I think they could get about a 30 degree turn on it. It was sometimes also set up with the Vampir infrared sighting system. I researched a lot of this because of my interest in WWII weaponry, and because I'm addicted to playing Medal of Honor: Allied Assault. Great game if you like FPS games.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 6:22:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: I once read where someone asked Mikhail Kalashnikov the question about whether his weapon was based upon the Stg-44, and his answer was almost unprintable! Seems he does not think so. But,Then...
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...but then, Kalashnikov is a Russian communist, and it will be a cold day in hell if I take anything said by a Russian communist for face value. "Ees Rrrusski inventzia!" Yeah, right.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 7:10:20 AM EDT
Fired, fondled, and disassembled for maintenance, numerous times.. Excellent controls,very good ergonomics, easily manipulated Take down for cleaning was very straightforward. Accuracy was acceceptable, recoil neglible.. The cyclic rate on F/A with the StG/MP-44 is significantly more plesant than what one experiences with the AK series.. The magazine was easy to load, clean, and obviously inspired many later AR mag designs.. The stamped forend/handguard is the main drawback..One magazine, and it's unplesantly warm. (In Arizona..) Considering how scarce the 7.92X33 ammunition is becoming, if you're offered the chance to fire one, I'd reccomend it highly. Meplat-
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 7:17:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/6/2002 7:35:43 AM EDT by Scarecrow]
Adolf Hitler renamed the gun for propaganda reasons. There is not a STG-M16 or a STG-47. The AR15/M16 AK47 and others are not assault rifles, they are rifles, plain and simple. Assault rifle is a term used by Media propaganda agencies to set these guns apart from the rest so they can be more easily demonized. Edited because I forgot that the Swiss designation of their rifles is STG, for assault rifle
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 7:28:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M1QJ: The StG44 was probably the first 'assault rifle' ever made. Find a picture of it, and you'll be amazed at how much it looks like an AK-47. Or I should say, how much an AK-47 looks like it. Banana clip, gas port on the TOP of the bbl, tall front sight post, pistol grip... Hitler didn't like the idea, because he didn't want his industrial power weakened by having to manufacture a whole different cartridge. Development of the cartridge and weapon went on under Hitler's nose, and when it came to light, several of his subordinates had to BEG him to give it a chance. They armed his personal guards with the StG44, and gave him a demonstration, and he was turned.
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Interesting, that's not how it was reported on "Tales of the Gun." The story as I recall was that Hitler had given the order that no new [i]rifles[/i] were to be designed, but [i]submachinegun[/i] development was encouraged. Some General or other muckety-muck analysed the combat conditions and came to the conclusion that rapid-fire was needed, but pistol cartridges were too pipsqueak. The MP-44 was the result of the design exercise. And it was named [i]MP[/i] so it would meet Hitler's requirement for machine pistol, not rifle development. Once the rifles had been in service for a while, Hitler asked some of his commanders what they needed, and the response was "more of these new rifles!" Oops! Cat out of the bag!
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 7:40:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/6/2002 7:41:01 AM EDT by M1QJ]
Originally Posted By KBaker: Interesting, that's not how it was reported on "Tales of the Gun." The story as I recall was that Hitler had given the order that no new [i]rifles[/i] were to be designed, but [i]submachinegun[/i] development was encouraged. Some General or other muckety-muck analysed the combat conditions and came to the conclusion that rapid-fire was needed, but pistol cartridges were too pipsqueak. The MP-44 was the result of the design exercise. And it was named [i]MP[/i] so it would meet Hitler's requirement for machine pistol, not rifle development. Once the rifles had been in service for a while, Hitler asked some of his commanders what they needed, and the response was "more of these new rifles!" Oops! Cat out of the bag!
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I probably didn't have it 100% right. They DID call it the MP44 to keep it under Hitler's nose. I think Hitler's big hang up was that he didn't want ANOTHER type of cartridge that his factories would have to be RETOOLED to manufacture. But, the MP44 performed well, and he was impressed. Just think what would have happened if Nazi Germany had waited 4 or 5 years to initiate hostilities... they'd have had some awesome weapons. Anyone ever got a chance to handle/fire a G43?
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 8:04:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M1QJ: Just think what would have happened if Nazi Germany had waited 4 or 5 years to initiate hostilities... they'd have had some awesome weapons.
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That's what he promised the Kriegsmarine. He told Adm. Erich Raeder he wouldn't start a war till at least 1945. That would've allowed Germany to start with war with hundreds of U-boats instead of the 57 in service in 1939.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 8:15:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/6/2002 8:22:08 AM EDT by Atencio]
The concept of the StG44 was that the 98k was accurate to a 1000 meters but that most infantry combat took place under 400 meters. The Germans thereby thought that a weapon that combined the firepower and handiness of a machine pistol while assaulting and could fire accurate selective fire in defense would be ideal. The Maschinepistole 43 was tested on the eastern front by SS units; Leibstandante, Das Reich, and Totenkopf in late 42. A legend was born when it was reported that a unit that was encircled was airdropped in some MP-43s and they proceeded to fight their way out and escape the encirclement. After the trials the army demanded the weapon and Hitler relented renaming it the Sturmgewehr( storm or assault rifle) 44. Though it was easy and cheap to produce only elite units received it. source: Mann,C.(2001). SS-Totenkopf. MBI, WI pp 167-168.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 8:27:17 AM EDT
by the way [url]http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/exhibits/ex-corner.htm[/url] if you want info on curved barrel.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 10:37:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M1QJ: ...snip... Just think what would have happened if Nazi Germany had waited 4 or 5 years to initiate hostilities... they'd have had some awesome weapons. ...snip
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Assuming America would have kept to her production schedules that were set shortly before '41, Hitler starting a war in '45 instead of '39 would have made his situation far, far worse. It still shocks me to read how the Germans made it as far as they did with what they had. The United States' war machine was just getting fully mobilized in '45 when the war ENDED. If anything, Hitler realized that time was against him and started sooner than later because of it...every day that passed after his present and future enemies upped war production was a day he became weaker.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 10:44:19 AM EDT
How does the operating system compare to an AK?
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 11:03:24 AM EDT
I think the STg-44 uses delayed locking rollers, as for the Kalashnikov its a simple gas-operated locking system. As far as the other questions here, this should clear things up: Am Anfang der Entwicklung stand der Maschinenkarabiner 42, der im Winter 1942/43 die Truppen an der Ostfront erreichte. Er verfeuerte die für den reinen Infanteriekampf viel zu starke 8x57 mm IS Patrone, die zudem den Rückstoß für einen ungeübten Schützen zu einem großen Problem werden ließ. Entgegen den Weisungen Hitlers entschloß man sich daher beim Heereswaffenamt, den von Louis Schmeisser entwickelten Schnellfeuerkarabiner auf die ebenfalls neu entwickelte Polte-Kurzpatrone 7,92x33 mm umzurüsten. Der daraus entstehende Maschinenkarabiner (Mkb) 42(H), wobei das "H" für Haenel steht, wurde nach dem Einbau von einigen Elementen des Walter-Systems und heftigem Kompetenzgerangel zwischen den verschiedenen beteiligten Dienststellen als Maschinenpistole MP 43 eingeführt. Kleine Verbesserungen im Detail der Waffe wie einem Schutzdach für das Korn, das sich im harten Gefecht zu leicht beschädigen ließ und ein verändertes Gewinde an der Laufmündung führten zur MP43/1, die ab April 1944 ohne weitere Veränderungen MP 44 genannt wurde. Hitler fand ebenfalls Gefallen an der neuen Waffe und gab ihr den von der Propaganda gut ausschlachtbaren Namen "Sturmgewehr", was in Verbindung mit der Jahreszahl logischerweise zu dem Namen Stgw. 44 führte. Nun konnte die Produktion, die zwischenzeitlich gestoppt worden war, wieder mit ganzer Energie aufgenommen werden.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 11:05:22 AM EDT
which translated mean: At the start of the development was the machine carbine 42, which achieved the troops at the east front in the winter 1942/43. It fired for the pure infantry fight the much to strong 8x57 mm IS cartridge, which besides a large problem become let the recoil for untrained protecting. Against the instructions of Hitler one decided therefore with the office for army weapon, that from Louis Schmeisser developed high-speed fire carbines on the likewise again developed polarizing short cartridge 7,92x33 mm to reequip. The machine carbine (Mkb), developing from it, 42(H), whereby the " H " is for Haenel, was introduced after the installation the different agencies involved by some items of the walter system and violent authority wrangling between as submachine gun MP 43. in hard combat too easily to damage and led a changed thread at the laufmuendung left itself small improvements in the detail of the weapon as to a canopy for the grain to the MP43/1, which was called starting from April 1944 without further modifications MP 44. Hitler found likewise favours at the new weapon and gave her the name " storm rifle " well cannibalizable of propaganda, which logical-proved Stgw. 44 in connection with the year to the name led. Now the production, which had been in the meantime stopped, could be taken up again with whole energy.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 1:35:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M1QJ: ...and because I'm addicted to playing Medal of Honor: Allied Assault. Great game if you like FPS games.
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Oh my friend you should try the 'Day of Defeat' conversion for Half-Life! [url]www.dayofdefeatmod.com[/url]
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 1:40:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HBAR16:
Originally Posted By M1QJ: ...and because I'm addicted to playing Medal of Honor: Allied Assault. Great game if you like FPS games.
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Oh my friend you should try the 'Day of Defeat' conversion for Half-Life! [url]www.dayofdefeatmod.com[/url]
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The copy of Halflife I have won't complete the install, or I'd have tried DoD. From what I've heard, there are some things in DoD that I'd like in MoH. I like MoH, tho. The graphics are AWESOME, game play is good (I like the realism mods... so I can KILL with one shot from the M1, instead of having to score 3 or more hits!). My gripe is that they didn't use the G43 instead of the KAR98 as the German main rifle. So they had to weaken the M1 so it didn't overpower the KAR98. I'm usually online in that game as Cpl Punishment.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 1:58:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 2:04:37 PM EDT
troy, if you had tits i'd marry you.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 3:52:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M1QJ: The StG44 was probably the first 'assault rifle' ever made.
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It was THE first assault rifle made.
Find a picture of it, and you'll be amazed at how much it looks like an AK-47. Or I should say, how much an AK-47 looks like it.
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It's clear enough that the AK-47 was based off the StG-44 as well as the Russian PPSh-41 7.62x25 submachine gun. If Kalashnikov said otherwise he is lying, there's no way he "thought up" features so close to those guns. He simply put together things in one package that worked well on other guns.
I researched a lot of this because of my interest in WWII weaponry, and because I'm addicted to playing Medal of Honor: Allied Assault. Great game if you like FPS games.
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Yeah, it was modelled fantastically in that game wasn't it? And the sounds! All the gun sounds in Allied Assault are fantastic, better than I've heard anywhere so far.
Originally Posted By Scarecrow: Adolf Hitler renamed the gun for propaganda reasons. There is not a STG-M16 or a STG-47. The AR15/M16 AK47 and others are not assault rifles, they are rifles, plain and simple.
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Totally untrue, it was Hitler himself that coined the phraise "assault rifle". The M16 and full-auto AK-47 IS an assault rifle, but the AR-15 isn't an assault rifle since it can't fire more than one round.
Assault rifle is a term used by Media propaganda agencies to set these guns apart from the rest so they can be more easily demonized.
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"Assault rifle" is often used as a propaganda term to demonize semi-automatic rifles like the AR-15.
Originally Posted By injun-ear: Assuming America would have kept to her production schedules that were set shortly before '41, Hitler starting a war in '45 instead of '39 would have made his situation far, far worse.
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Maybe, maybe not. Significant advances in war tools are often made by necessity in war so if Germany was just huffing and puffing until '45 they probably still wouldn't have spend effort on new technologies until as far as they did in the real WWII.
It still shocks me to read how the Germans made it as far as they did with what they had. The United States' war machine was just getting fully mobilized in '45 when the war ENDED. If anything, Hitler realized that time was against him and started sooner than later because of it...every day that passed after his present and future enemies upped war production was a day he became weaker.
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The Allies got a break in that Hitler himself was the biggest bane to the Wehrmacht, pushing them too far when they shouldn't have been and holding them back when they should have gone forward. He was an idiot. No assault rifles (he only allowed bolt-action Mausers and submachine guns until the very end), no atomic bombs, and attacking Russia so soon. If I were Heinrich Himmler I would have executed him early on.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 4:12:22 PM EDT
There is one on display in the basement of Austin Police Dept headquarters among other weapons confiscated. Unfortunately this display is not open to the public.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 4:32:55 PM EDT
"As everyone knows, the German Stg-44 was the daddy of the AK-47, and therefore the father of all modern military rifles." malarky! good lord! haenel, reinmetal, vollmer and schmeisser would be rolling in their graves! the ak and mp-stg series don't even share the same operating system! the "assault rifle", by definition...a rifle firing a reduced power (often termed "intermediate") cartridge and capable of automatic fire, reloadable by means of a detachable quick change magazine...has existed as an officially adopted weapon since 1916!!! and conceptually since 1913!!! that would be the federov avtomat, which chambered the reduced power (in its' day) 6.5 x 50,5mm jap round. THIS was the grandfather of ALL assault rifles!!! guess what? it featured a pistol grip and a curved box mag! now...tell me again...WHO'S zoomin' WHO? the krauts even stole the design for the pistol patrone round from the swiss and italians, for pete's sake! yeah "everybody knows" the mp-stg series was the "father" of all "modern" military rifles AND "daddy" of the kalashnikov!!!???!!! i guess the mkb-42/immediate derivatives doesn't count? hey ross, for $2/rd (downloaded handloads), i took the plunge and fired 10. it was a rush! i should have intro'd you to the owner of one at the brc. actually, you met the man...i'll let you know who he was at bulletfest if you remind me. the progenitor of the genre belongs to vladimir federov! he beat the germans to the punch by 30 years.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 4:42:00 PM EDT
The cyclic rate on the MP42, MP43, MP-44, STG-44 (all basicaly the develpments of the same rifle) is around 600rpm. If you guys want to play with them or see them on a monthly basis, there are tons of the in SS units in WWII reenacting. We had one in our unit and it was anly a little slower than our MG-34. It seems that the SS guys like the MP-44's. I guess thats because they are "elite" despite the fact that most of them are over 300 pounds. G-43's are becomeing more rare due to their value skyrocketing. I paid $400 for mine 8 years ago. Now I couldn't touch a beat to hell G-43 for under $1200. They do not feel as nice as an M-1 while shooting, but is is a good weapon. By the end of the war 40% of German soldiers were armed with some type of "automatic" weapon. There will be a D-Day invasion reenactment on lake Erie (conneaut Ohio) in September, if any of you guys want to see a lot of really cool German weapons you should come out. I've handled the MP-44, I found it awkward, but functionable, I liked the MP-40 better for shootability.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 5:35:27 PM EDT
McGreedo- The MP-44 I'm familiar with had an inclined plane locking system, similar to the SKS-45, or the FN FAL..The gas piston, was an integral part of an extension, upon which the bolt rode.. This was cut out near the rear, to allow passage of the hammer..When in battery, the operating rod's cams forced the bolt upward, locking it..Gas or the charging handle would draw the oprod back, unlocking the bolt, drawing it back.. The exploded view Troy posted is of a later version, called the Mkb 45, I believe..It is what today's H&K/CETME drew upon.. The fire selector was a transverse push button, with a separate thumb operated safety on the left of the fire control/trigger housing group.. Looking at one, you can see where a lot of inspiration for later weapons stemmed from.. Campybob- Thanks for bringing up the Federov.. That's one I'd love to "fondle".. Meplat-
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 6:12:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/6/2002 6:13:44 PM EDT by Scarecrow]
[img]http://strony.wp.pl/wp/privnoon/bron/rozb44.jpg[/img] Warning, this is not the MP44, or the STG44, its the STG45 or MKB45 which is a completely different gun on which the CETME rifle was based which the G3 is based.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 7:11:00 PM EDT
The picture looks like an MKb42. The sight base is different as well as the pistol grip, but otherwise looks very close. Walther was the main producer of the MKb42, but Mauser also made a few so that could explain the difference. Am I close? A closer look shows that the receiver is much shorter on the pictured gun than the Walther made MKb42 that I am looking at in my book. The bayonet lug is also missing, whats with that?
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 8:13:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By obershutze916: The picture looks like an MKb42. The sight base is different as well as the pistol grip, but otherwise looks very close. Walther was the main producer of the MKb42, but Mauser also made a few so that could explain the difference. Am I close? A closer look shows that the receiver is much shorter on the pictured gun than the Walther made MKb42 that I am looking at in my book. The bayonet lug is also missing, whats with that?
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They had bayonet lugs? The pics I have don't show any.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 8:37:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: the "assault rifle", by definition...a rifle firing a reduced power (often termed "intermediate") cartridge and capable of automatic fire, reloadable by means of a detachable quick change magazine...has existed as an officially adopted weapon since 1916!!! and conceptually since 1913!!! that would be the federov avtomat, which chambered the reduced power (in its' day) 6.5 x 50,5mm jap round. THIS was the grandfather of ALL assault rifles!!! guess what? it featured a pistol grip and a curved box mag!
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6.5 Jap ain't a true assault rifle cartridge. So no winner here. It wasn't very popular with the Russians, either. At the end of WW1 the Germans came up with the first true concept of what became the "assault rifle". They couldn't develop it themselves, and tried to develop it for the Swiss, but the Swiss were not interested. The German WW2 idea reserected this. And it was the direct expierence with the German assault rifles that influenced Soviet design, not WW1 era Russian dead ends.
Link Posted: 6/6/2002 10:01:25 PM EDT
The story I got was that Mister Heckler and Mister Koch fled Germany and set up shop in Spain, where they developed the CETME. Later, after the war, they went back to Germany and refined the CETME into the G3.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 5:27:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2002 5:36:15 AM EDT by obershutze916]
Atencio, the weapon with the bayonet lug that I was describing was the MKb-42(W). The MP-44 series does not have a bayonet lug as adopted by the Germans. I find that odd myself knowing their combat tactics quite well. I am note sure why the OKW decided not to ad one. Scarecrow, now that I reread your post and paid attention, it makes more sense. If you look at other pictures, the forgrip is 100% Walther designed, and the rest is Mauser. Interesting. Blackmanta, I hope this answers your question, let me copy the last paragragh of Ian Hoggs info on the MP-44 series: ......a contract was issued in 1944 to develop a better weapon, tenatively known as the Sturmgewehr 45. Numerous designs were put forward, the most successful being that by Mauserwerke. But the war ended before development was very far advanced; the design was later taken to Spain and further developed into the CETME rifle, and then returned to Germany here, considerably improved, it is now produced as the H&K G-3...... I have both CETME and G-3. I can see the lineage, but other than wood furnature, can not tell the difference b/w the CETME and G-3. Personally I find the MP-44 easier to shoot than the later guns though. (I'm short, and the shorter MP-44 is easier for me, I'm not flameing your G-3's) Edited numerous times because I can't seem to spell today.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 7:37:00 AM EDT
Anyone ever got a chance to handle/fire a G43?
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Yeah, I have one. G43, AC44 code with ZF-4 scope. I like it quite a bit. They aren't the cleanest machine job around, but they're well made. It shoots really well, but it's a full bore 8mm. I like the scope/iron sights set up, which was much more versitile than the M1. I think the M1 is a better rifle, but the G43 had detatchable ten round mags, so you could either reload a partially filled mag through the top, or swap it out. G43 riflemen usually carried three spare mags and a further thiry rounds on strippers. Most were used on the Eastern front, so that's why they aren't all over the place in the west. A good gun, but not the direction to go in the war. Ross
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 9:50:11 AM EDT
A rifleman with the G/K-43 had only TWO spare mags. Total issue was three. One in the rifle, and two in the left side mag. pouch. Himmler tried to get the issue cut back to two mags when the VG series rifles were intoduced (they used the same mags) but was unsuccessful. The standard ammunition issue was 90 rounds for the G/K-43. As opposed to 60 for the K98. The Right hand pouch was filled (30rounds), but the left hand pouch was also to be filled and carried with their assalt gear. (another 30 rounds) The magazines were also to be filled. =90 round of issue ammo. Obviously this was only the regulation and what happened in the field is always different. It is common to see pictures of guys with G-43's with spare mags stuffed in their pockets, or with no spare mag. pouches at all.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 10:43:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2002 10:45:49 AM EDT by DriftPunch]
The AK is related to the MP44 in concept only. Most design is a stream of improvements rather than something totally new. In my opinion, although the AK has some design elements that are similar to other weapons (compare the trigger group to a Garands), it cannot be termed a copy of anything.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 2:32:49 PM EDT
Why not refer to the MP-44 as the grand daddy of the CETME or HK rifles? The earlier experimental AK-46 rifles dont look like the STG-44 either, other then a curved magazine and tangent sights. The AK-46 receiver seperated pretty much in the middle. imagine if this design were prevalient today. Extra Uppers for your AK [:D]
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 2:58:34 PM EDT
Hitler opposed the original idea of the assault rifle because he was still thought like a WWI infantryman and didn't want to give up the long range ballistics of the 7.92x57mm rifle cartridge. That was reinforced in his mind by the experience of the Fallschirmjagern (paratroopers) on Crete where they suffered a lot of casualties to the British Lee-Enfields, which outranged the MP-40 smg's carried by the Germans. Development continued in secret and the winning design was put into limited service on the Eastern Front as the MP43 (maschinenpistole), for the reasons others have mentioned. It was improved (MP44) and when he found out and finally approved it, the designation was changed to Stg44 (Sturmgewehr). I am inclined to believe that Mikhail Kalashnikov might have taken some conceptual ideas from the Stg44, but his AK47 certainly isn't a copy. The Russian cartridge, 7.62x39mm M43 was developed in 1943. This was later than the German 7.92x33mm, but before the Stg's saw much service (if any). I think it was a matter of parallel development of the idea. The idea of a short barrel, selective fire, air cooled, shoulder fired, magazine fed weapon was already a reality with the submachinegun. Admittedly, most smg's were full auto only and they fired from the open bolt position (blowback operation), but the concept was there and if you add a locking bolt and an intermediate cartridge, then you have an assault rifle. Some people give half a nod to the M1 Carbine as the first assault rifle. It entered service long before the MP43, but it was semi-auto only for the first few years. It wasn't full auto until the M2 version. Again, a parallel effort to develop a light, semi (selective) fire carbine using an intermediate cartridge.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 5:26:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dorsai: Hitler opposed the original idea of the assault rifle because he was still thought like a WWI infantryman and didn't want to give up the long range ballistics . . .
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Logistical reasons also existed for not introducing a new German standard infantry cartridge. This probably was an even greater influence on Hitler, and he was probably right to oppose the new weapon. Its advantages in combat probably never made up for the logistics problems it created . . . German industry should have been cranking out the standard cartridge at full capacity.
Originally Posted By Dorsai: I am inclined to believe that Mikhail Kalashnikov might have taken some conceptual ideas from the Stg44, but his AK47 certainly isn't a copy. The Russian cartridge, 7.62x39mm M43 was developed in 1943. This was later than the German 7.92x33mm, but before the Stg's saw much service (if any). I think it was a matter of parallel development of the idea.
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The German assault rifles began as the Mkb-42(w) and Mkb-42(h). These were prototypes introduced into combat in 1942. The Soviets were immedietly on the sharp end of these weapons, which were tried by fire. The German 7.92 mm Kurtz existed for some time prior to the Mkb-42 weapons. I'm sure that the shock onf the new weapon compelled the Soviets to make their own cartridge ASAP.
Originally Posted By Dorsai: Some people give half a nod to the M1 Carbine as the first assault rifle. It entered service long before the MP43, but it was semi-auto only for the first few years. It wasn't full auto until the M2 version. Again, a parallel effort to develop a light, semi (selective) fire carbine using an intermediate cartridge.
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The carbine was designed in 1941 and introduced in 1942--the same year as the German assault rifle prototypes. The main thing about the carbine, however, is that it was more to replace the handgun than the main rifle. In other words, the carbines role was to fit into the existing order of battle, and wasn't very revolutionary as a concept. The Mkb series were a revolutionary concept. IMO, Mkb is better than Stg. "Automatic carbine" is both more descriptive than "assault rifle", and less inflamatory.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 5:29:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Libertoon: Why not refer to the MP-44 as the grand daddy of the CETME or HK rifles?
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The Stg-45(m) is the granddaddy of the CETME/HK weapons.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 5:34:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DriftPunch: The AK is related to the MP44 in concept only. Most design is a stream of improvements rather than something totally new. In my opinion, although the AK has some design elements that are similar to other weapons (compare the trigger group to a Garands), it cannot be termed a copy of anything.
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At least some parts appear to be a copy of the Czech ZK420S rifle dating from 1942.
Link Posted: 6/7/2002 8:00:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dorsai: Some people give half a nod to the M1 Carbine as the first assault rifle. It entered service long before the MP43, but it was semi-auto only for the first few years. It wasn't full auto until the M2 version. Again, a parallel effort to develop a light, semi (selective) fire carbine using an intermediate cartridge.
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When did the full-auto M1 Carbine (with the bigger mag) appear on the battlefield? I thought it was after the Germans surrendered, and only saw limited use against the Japanese.
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 6:38:56 AM EDT
DonS your point about the Germans should have spent their time cranking out regular 8mm ammo is both valid and not a good reflection of the situation at the same time. Hitler rejected the idea of the gun due to the multitude of reasons list in the previous post, but also because at the time (late 1942) the OKH reported that there wer "Eight thousand million" rounds of standard 8mm in stock. If I do my math, that is 1,000,000,000 rounds. + what was being produced. Production figures show that all essential weapons production INCREASED as the war came closer to the end, with production only falling once the factories were overrun by the Soviets, (and a few by the Americans who were busy fighting the stupid and pointless "Battle of the Ruhr Pocket" at the time.) By the last two months of the war, most German soldiers had almost no ammunition, with reports of entire divisions showing up at the front with nothing but a single Panzer Faust for weaponry. The famed "Battle of Berlin" was not much of a battle once inside the city. With only fierce resistance in isolated areas, most home guard units were using captured weapons, some with the wrong ammo, but that was all they could get. In short, they ran out of ammo, but the western front at that time had more ammo and feul than they knew what to do with,especially when the Americans were not attacking.
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 6:53:51 AM EDT
On the other hand, the German army had recovered from Stalingrad almost completely, it was only after Kursk that all hope was lost. Faced with increasing man power shortages, attrition of veterans, a resurgant Red Army, Increased human wave attacks on undermanned fronts, and being pushed back to more "civilized" parts of Europe, the Germans were in depirite need of a new medium range, high capacity weapon. The average German soldier was out gunned by the Soviet veteran units. (the regular Soviet infanry was little more than cannon fodder at this point, Enemy at the Gates was good for showing this point, but was only showing, for the most part, the extreeme.) There was a despirate need for the new weapon on the eastern front. In mid 1944, the Soviet high command ordered that mass human wave attacks cease unless it was decided that it was the best way to attack. This forced the Soviets to use sound thought out tactics, and forced the Germans into an even tougher defensive fight. Books have been written on this point alone so I won't write one here, but the fact of the matter was, ther Germans really did need the new rifle. Did it make a difference? Yes, BUT the Germans still lost the war didn't they? Again though, they would have lost regardless. The Soviets took 71.4 million casualties, they wouldn't have stopped until the last Russian civilian had been shot by either the Germans or Stalin himslef.
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