Posted: 8/19/2011 5:33:17 PM EDT
| What type of "compound" would be formed if chlorine gas was introduced into liquid Flouride? Would the end result be capable of penetrating reinforced cement and eating the rebar? What specific metals or plastics would the mixture attack? Reason for question is a workplace mishap where large quantities of each were accidentally combined. |
| They're both halogens and won't react with each other. I don't know what flourine will do to concrete, although chlorine will oxidize it. Flourine will certainly do more damage than chlorine. Mixing them and letting them get at the concrete would almost certainly wreck the structural integrity of the concrete, but I don't think it would be able to get to the rebar. If it did, the wall is probably shot anyway. |
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I doubt anything would happen. Both are nearly the same in electronegativity. ETA: I could be wrong. Chlorine Triflouride http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_trifluoride ClF3 is a very strong oxidizing and fluorination agent. It is extremely reactive with most inorganic and organic materials, even plastics, and will initiate the combustion of many materials without an ignition source. These reactions are often violent, and in some cases explosive. Reaction with several metals give chlorides and fluorides; phosphorus yields PCl3 and PF5; and sulfur yields SCl2 and SF4. ClF3 is also violently reactive with water, in which it hydrolyses to a variety of hazardous chemicals such as hydrofluoric acid. H2S explodes on being mixed with ClF3 at room temperature. The ability to surpass the oxidizing ability of oxygen leads to corrosivity against oxide-containing materials often thought as incombustible. In an industrial accident, a spill of 900 kg of chlorine trifluoride burned itself through 30 cm of concrete and 90 cm of gravel beneath.[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_trifluoride#cite_note-7][[/url] |
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They're both halogens and won't react with each other. I don't know what flourine will do to concrete, although chlorine will oxidize it. Flourine will certainly do more damage than chlorine. Mixing them and letting them get at the concrete would almost certainly wreck the structural integrity of the concrete, but I don't think it would be able to get to the rebar. If it did, the wall is probably shot anyway. Halogens do react with each other. But halogen ions (chloride and fluoride) don't react, AFAIK. Elements and their ions are quite different from each other. |
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Fluoride is a salt of fluorine. Chlorine is a gas. I will assume this is dealing with potable water treatment as the two are used, usually H2FSi6 or its sodium salt. Because it is in solution, common ion effect will cause damage to silicates, such as etching of vitreous enamel tubs/sinks and older toilets with low temperature glazes. Since Portland Cement is a silicate complex, water activated, it too suffers under high concentration exposure to fluorides. Chlorine gas can easily permeate concrete, causing a host of corrosion pathways by dropping the pH of concrete. Get below 10 and corrosion is certain, spalling concrete off closest rebar to the surface. Cracks and further exposure cause eventual failure. In cold climates where salt is used for deicing, concrete suffers this damage. |
| Not a lot of info is being released. Flouride quantity was probably 1000 gallons or so , chlorine was being offloaded from a tanker truck but I have no idea of the actual volume or concentration. Accident occurred at water treatment plant. Resulting plume seeped from plant and caused a small residential evacuation. Rumors are that mixture ate all plastics in plant and destroyed any stainless steel it contacted. Other rumors state that the plume penetrated the plants concrete structure and has weakened the rebar to the point where the plant might be a complete loss. |
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What type of "compound" would be formed if chlorine gas was introduced into liquid Flouride? Would the end result be capable of penetrating reinforced cement and eating the rebar? What specific metals or plastics would the mixture attack? Reason for question is a workplace mishap where large quantities of each were accidentally combined. Very good question! During a lot of the liquid rocket fuel experimentation in the U.S., many different oxidizers were made. A great book on this topic is Ignition!: An informal history of liquid rocket propellants. To answer your question, the compound formed would be ClF, Chlorine Monofluoride. It's obviously a very potent oxidizer and will usually liberate fluorinate most other metals, non-metals and compounds. For instance, it will release oxygen from Silicon Dioxide and form Silicon Tetrafluoride in the process as well as Chlorine gas. I don't know that it would be any greater an oxidizing agent than Fluorine gas alone. So, how were the gases/liquids accidentally released? ETA: Sorry, I misread 'Fluoride' as 'Fluorine'. Still an interesting book if you get it at the library or through inter-library loan like I did. 
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Truck was at plant to refill chlorine cylinder and through "human error" the chlorine was offloaded into the plants Flouride tank. I know nothing about water treatment plants, but IMO, at least the filling port fittings on each tank should be different so as to prevent cross contamination. |
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The fittings on the two inlets are different and a reducer was employed to make chlorine go into Flouride . Offload locations were on opposite sides of plant too. Allegedly the truck driver was new and had never delivered to plant. Wow. You can get a CDL with hazmat and not know how to read these days? I would imagine that there were sufficient placarding at the area in question also. Somebody needs a spanking. 
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The fittings on the two inlets are different and a reducer was employed to make chlorine go into Flouride . Offload locations were on opposite sides of plant too. Allegedly the truck driver was new and had never delivered to plant. "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool." 
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Sounds like a hazmat driver didn't really learn the curriculum. If so, she/he is a fucking idjit.
Are you seeing problems (or forseeing problems) in your plumbing, in your house generally, in living critters, or what? There's a range of bad stuff that might happen in the scenario you mentioned, but that doesn't mean all of those bad things happened. |
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I'm thinking that there wasn't any reaction between the fluoride compound and the chlorine gas, but that chlorine was discharged into the atmosphere. (Chlorine gas is bad juju; it was used as a chemical weapon in WW I)
Still, any hazmat driver who made such a mistake is definitely 1. incompetent and 2. a hazard. The tanks (on the vehicle, and on the site) are marked very clearly with what they are meant to hold. The driver needed to but apparently didn't bother to read the fucking labels. That's why hazmat drivers get specialized training. They deliver stuff that can ruin many folks' day and need to know how to do it right. |
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This wasn't chlorine gas but a chlorine (hypochlorite) solution. Why? All elemental chlorine is transported in pressure vessels, either tanker or casks. You have to be in level A to do an off-load of elemental chlorine. If the fluoride solution is in a concrete tank, it is unlikely for the hypochlorite solution to do immediate damage to concrete. |
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I was going to respond, but KeithJ beat me to it. Was it actual chlorine gas, or hypochlorite solution? ETA: If it was hypochlorite, the reason you got Cl2 gas is the hexafluorosilic acid reacted with the hypochlorite solution, liberating the gas. You can get a similar reaction at home by putting bleach into your toilet and then peeing into it –– but don't try it, it's quite dangerous. (made bold for the "hold my beer at watch this" types  ) |
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The fittings on the two inlets are different and a reducer was employed to make chlorine go into Flouride . Offload locations were on opposite sides of plant too. Allegedly the truck driver was new and had never delivered to plant. "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented foo." 
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Quoted: Chlorine is delivered in it's gas form. I've been in the storage area before and it is a large pressurized vessel that delivers diffused bubbles into the treatment plants basins Then it sounds like the chlorine gas leaked out of the container, since it wasn't built to hold a pressurized gas, rather than an actual reaction. I don't think he'll be trying it again anytime soon.  |
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I was going to respond, but KeithJ beat me to it. Was it actual chlorine gas, or hypochlorite solution? ETA: If it was hypochlorite, the reason you got Cl2 gas is the hexafluorosilic acid reacted with the hypochlorite solution, liberating the gas. You can get a similar reaction at home by putting bleach into your toilet and then peeing into it –– but don't try it, it's quite dangerous. (made bold for the "hold my beer at watch this" types )
I actually put my beer down and then read that. Thanks for that. Cl2 gas bad. Got it. |
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Quoted: Chlorine is delivered in it's gas form. I've been in the storage area before and it is a large pressurized vessel that delivers diffused bubbles into the treatment plants basins That is some industrial DUMB ASS HAT who should never been awarded a commercial driver's license, much less a hazardous materials certificate. Was he union? |
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Chlorine is delivered in it's gas form. I've been in the storage area before and it is a large pressurized vessel that delivers diffused bubbles into the treatment plants basins That is some industrial DUMB ASS HAT who should never been awarded a commercial driver's license, much less a hazardous materials certificate. Was he union?
Meh, the governor used to sell CDL's in illannoys.
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They're both halogens and won't react with each other. I don't know what flourine will do to concrete, although chlorine will oxidize it. Flourine will certainly do more damage than chlorine. Mixing them and letting them get at the concrete would almost certainly wreck the structural integrity of the concrete, but I don't think it would be able to get to the rebar. If it did, the wall is probably shot anyway. Halogens do react with each other. But halogen ions (chloride and fluoride) don't react, AFAIK. Elements and their ions are quite different from each other. I can't recall a replacement reaction that would favor chlorine over flourine. I'm sure there is one, but it's not commonly encountered. |