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Posted: 5/31/2002 11:20:32 AM EDT
Posted this earlier in the History forum, but it doesn't seem to get much traffic. Caught just a blurb on the a.m. news that Robert Ballard, the guy who found the Titanic, Bismark, etc., has been searching for and may have found the wreck of the P.T. 109. While I am no fan of the Kennedys, this would be an interesting WW II archeological find if it's true. Has anyone hear anything about this, or know anything about it?
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 11:32:55 AM EDT
Have been a number of reports that he found it. None of them confirmed as National Geographic has exclusive rights to the story.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 11:58:56 AM EDT
My only interest in this story whatsoever is in wondering how much federal grant money Bob Ballard gets for sailing around the world looking for sunken relics of wars and disasters past? Is the world a better place because of all that Titanic footage, movies and attendant hype? I liked the Titanic better when it was an unsolved mystery--not that it was much of a mystery. It hit and iceberg. Now the wreck is an overhyped tourist destination with no dignity. We know exactly what happened to PT109. Why go looking for it at all? Some of these finds must be very upsetting to people who lost loved ones at sea. Just re-opening old wounds, pretty much. Maybe old Bob Ballard is privately funded. His investors are just idiots, then.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 12:13:32 PM EDT
I would be amazed if much of the actual boat remained...being as that it has been almost 60 years and the boat was made of plywood. They didn't say whether they found the bow or the stern section (or both), since the boat was sliced in half by the Japanese Destroyer. The stern sank with 24 hrs at roughly the same spot it was struck, while the bow was used to get the crew to the island. (At least that's the version of the story I heard).
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 12:15:05 PM EDT
I believe he did assist in the search for Thresher or Scorpion, so no doubt at least some money was involved. This was on a recent program about sub disasters -- one of the publicized searches was used as cover.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 12:54:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By prk: I believe he did assist in the search for Thresher or Scorpion, so no doubt at least some money was involved. This was on a recent program about sub disasters -- one of the publicized searches was used as cover.
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I have a video on subs that states Ballard's search for the Titanic was a CIA cover story while he was looking for the Scorpion, IIRC. It could have been Soviet subs he was looking for instead. It's a pretty cool video. I wouldn't be too suprised if he were still getting some govt. money. Maybe not all anymore but probably some. Back OT. I heard about the PT109 story yesterday and I think Natl. Geographic was going to have a special about the find soon. Next month maybe?
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 3:53:48 PM EDT
Unless its a Government conspiracy the USS Scorpion was found long ago off the Azores not too long after she sank. Back when it was found they didn't know why she sank and I read that Ballard was "hired" to use his high tech equipment to go take another look.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 4:04:06 PM EDT
Ballard`s Titanic search was part US Navy cover story. Part of his mission was test out new technology for underwater intelligence gathering. It was also to allow the Navy to reassess the Thresher and Scorpion sites for new clues to their losses; but most importantly, to be sure the reactor vessels had not failed and leaking radioactive material.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 6:44:03 PM EDT
Don't remember the book but a guy who was in Kennedys unit said the men considered him a joke for letting the most manuverable ship in the navy get run over by a destroyer.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 6:51:07 PM EDT
trickshot, you must be one unhappy, miserable person, based on all your negative, paranoid posts.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 7:02:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG: trickshot, you must be one unhappy, miserable person, based on all your negative, paranoid posts.
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You're just noticing that? [:d] He never has anything nice, useful, or positive to say.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 7:11:15 PM EDT
Nah, This guy has obviousloy misidentified the submersed wreck! As it turns out is wasn't PT-109 but Teddy's black Oldsmobile! [:D] John
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 7:17:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GreyGhost: Don't remember the book but a guy who was in Kennedys unit said the men considered him a joke for letting the most manuverable ship in the navy get run over by a destroyer.
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If I remember correctly, the jerk-off was sitting there with his engines idling but the gears were not engaged. If that clown was a hero then I'm the next Audie Murphy (NOT!). Sorry bastard did save FORD Motor Company. He brought that village idiot Bob McNamara in from Ford as SecDef.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 7:25:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jjforsyth: Nah, This guy has obviousloy misidentified the submersed wreck! As it turns out is wasn't PT-109 but Teddy's black Oldsmobile! [:D] John
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I was going to say, "If a Kennedy was driving, it must be underwater...."
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 7:31:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By arbob: Part of his mission was test out new technology for underwater intelligence gathering. It was also to allow the Navy to reassess the Thresher and Scorpion sites for new clues to their losses; but most importantly, to be sure the reactor vessels had not failed and leaking radioactive material.
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Makes sense to me - the check for reactor vessel integrity. We know why the Thresher was lost but there's still some uncertainty about the Scorpion. At least in my mind.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 8:35:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/31/2002 8:58:00 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: If I remember correctly, the jerk-off was sitting there with his engines idling but the gears were not engaged. If that clown was a hero then I'm the next Audie Murphy (NOT!). .
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His was not the first nor the last PT boat to get rammed by a destroyer. Considering that in a couple of occassions the ramming destroyer was AMERICAN that means he cant have been the worst PT skipper there was. PT 109 had no radar, it was the night of a new moon, they were sent out to intercept a convoy of DDs being used as transports. PTs were too low to the water to have good visability. They were out there trying to HEAR a destroyer, think about that now. Here are segments of the Official History dealing with the 109, the first deals with the action that the 109 was sunk in [url]http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/4017/page08-04.html#Anchor-49659[/url] the second is the US Navy report on the sinking and rescue as told by the survivors [url]http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/4017/page08-04.html#Anchor-15661[/url] Kennedy was a man of few redeeming qualities, but his war service, while perhaps not deserving of a movie, is above reproach.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 9:57:29 PM EDT
Theren is very, very strong evidence that the Scorpion sank as the result of the explosion of a torpedo battery.
Link Posted: 6/1/2002 6:45:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_G: Theren is very, very strong evidence that the Scorpion sank as the result of the explosion of a torpedo battery.
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I thought it was due to a torpedo that started running, either in the tube or on the rack inside the forward torpedo room. The captain did a 180, which was suppose to engage the safety on the torpedo but didn't (or something like that) and the torpedo exploded.
Link Posted: 6/1/2002 6:56:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By neilfj:
Originally Posted By Dave_G: Theren is very, very strong evidence that the Scorpion sank as the result of the explosion of a torpedo battery.
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I thought it was due to a torpedo that started running, either in the tube or on the rack inside the forward torpedo room. The captain did a 180, which was suppose to engage the safety on the torpedo but didn't (or something like that) and the torpedo exploded.
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This is certainly the Navy's explanation and 'may' very well be correct.
Link Posted: 6/1/2002 7:02:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: If I remember correctly, the jerk-off was sitting there with his engines idling but the gears were not engaged. If that clown was a hero then I'm the next Audie Murphy (NOT!). .
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His was not the first nor the last PT boat to get rammed by a destroyer. Considering that in a couple of occassions the ramming destroyer was AMERICAN that means he cant have been the worst PT skipper there was. PT 109 had no radar, it was the night of a new moon, they were sent out to intercept a convoy of DDs being used as transports. PTs were too low to the water to have good visability. They were out there trying to HEAR a destroyer, think about that now. Here are segments of the Official History dealing with the 109, the first deals with the action that the 109 was sunk in [url]http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/4017/page08-04.html#Anchor-49659[/url] the second is the US Navy report on the sinking and rescue as told by the survivors [url]http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/4017/page08-04.html#Anchor-15661[/url] Kennedy was a man of few redeeming qualities, but his war service, while perhaps not deserving of a movie, is above reproach.
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Was he also the author of "Profiles in Courage" ???
Link Posted: 6/1/2002 9:58:28 AM EDT
Blind Man`s Bluff goes into some detail on the loss of Scorpion. The television program with the interview with Dr Craven was excellent as well. Apparently the then issued MK 37 Torpedo had battery problems and warnings from the Weapons L ab in Wash state weren`t passed on to the operating forces. The battery/torpedo explosion seems most likely. As Dr. Craven explained it, the Scorpions last moments were captured by the SOSUS net and the Capt was apparently following standard procedure for a hot run in the tube or otherwise armed warhead. This was detected by bearing changes on SOSUS, and was recreated by a sub officer in a simulator at Norfork when he was presented with the same scenario. The pictures of Scorpion`s remains also seem to indicate the forward area was open to the sea when she hit bottom, as it was mostly intact. The stern section appeared to be partially imploded. Hopefully whatever can be learned, will prevent another loss.
Link Posted: 6/1/2002 10:13:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By arbob: Blind Man`s Bluff goes into some detail on the loss of Scorpion. The television program with the interview with Dr Craven was excellent as well. Apparently the then issued MK 37 Torpedo had battery problems and warnings from the Weapons L ab in Wash state weren`t passed on to the operating forces. The battery/torpedo explosion seems most likely. As Dr. Craven explained it, the Scorpions last moments were captured by the SOSUS net and the Capt was apparently following standard procedure for a hot run in the tube or otherwise armed warhead. This was detected by bearing changes on SOSUS, and was recreated by a sub officer in a simulator at Norfork when he was presented with the same scenario. The pictures of Scorpion`s remains also seem to indicate the forward area was open to the sea when she hit bottom, as it was mostly intact. The stern section appeared to be partially imploded. Hopefully whatever can be learned, will prevent another loss.
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Dr. Craven - that's the name I was trying to remember - smarter than the average bear. Seem to remember he had something to do with the USS Salmon and the "Ivy Bells" operation......... The Scorpion was coming home and would probably have been down about 400 feet or so and running 20 odd knots. If my memory is correct on that class boat, if any explosion (regardless of cause)took out the hydraulics the sail planes failed on full dive. 'IF' this scenario is correct, then the end occurred in a matter of seconds - with the planes on full dive and at speed the crush depth would have been reached quickly - probably before a switch to the back-up hydraulics could be made. On the Thresher they knew they were going to die for maybe as long as four minutes. I was in a "C" school in Key West at this time and attended the Thresher's memorial service. Only time in 7yrs 2 mos of active service I ever went to church and the only time I cried. That was one embarrassed group of hard-assed submarine sailors as there was not one dry eye in the chapel. I still have the USS Thresher handout from that service.....
Link Posted: 6/2/2002 5:35:10 AM EDT
If I remember correctly, the jerk-off was sitting there with his engines idling but the gears were not engaged. If that clown was a hero then I'm the next Audie Murphy (NOT!).
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I was always told he had the engines shut off. That was a normal tactic for the PT Boats at night and in the fog. Go to where the enemy ships were supposed to be and sit (with engines off so they could hear the enemy ships) and wait for enemy contact. However, just because some of the boats did this it was definitely against standing orders. Kennedy should have been court martialed but daddy's friends saw to it that never happened.
Link Posted: 6/2/2002 5:48:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/2/2002 6:01:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Princeton: Kennedy should have been court martialed but daddy's friends saw to it that never happened.
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Yep !! Daddy also bought the election for JacK. He needed to carry Illinois and carrying Cook county was necessary to carrying Illinois and winning the election. Old Joe cut a deal with the Mafia, the Mafia delivered Cook county and Jack won the election. So far so good. Then Old Joe made Jack take Bobby as AG in order to attack and stiff the Mafia. The Mafia then had Jack Killed. There is absolutely 'NO' mystery about who killed Kennedy.
Link Posted: 6/2/2002 6:06:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/2/2002 6:27:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2002 7:02:08 AM EDT by 5subslr5]
raf, I don't know what Joe Kennedy promised the Mafia for Cook County but whatever it was he didn't want to pay. He thought he could attack the 'boys' through Bobby and get out of his agreement. Wrong !! Tough to collect a debt from prison. There's a little more involved - Secret Service - CIA - Cuba but the above is the primary reason Kennedy was killed. Edited to add: I use the word "Mafia" to describe who ordered the hit but that's not precisely accurate. The Chicago, Tampa, and New Orleans families ordered the hit. The entire commission did not approve Kennedy's assassination and were informed after the fact.
Link Posted: 6/2/2002 7:10:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2002 7:11:08 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 6/2/2002 7:31:47 AM EDT
raf, if you can get a copy of the Zapruder film, watch the chauffeur right before Kennedy gets it in the head. PBS did a documentary a while back narrated by Walter Cronkite which has the footage. It's either "The Men who Killed Kennedy" or "Who Killed Kennedy".
Link Posted: 6/2/2002 7:37:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: I dunno, 5subslr5, I've been a subscriber to the Oswald pulled the trigger and most likely acted alone school of thought. BUT, I'm willing to look at hard evidence and change my mind. Where can you point me to look/read?
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Raf, so much of the controversy has centered around the shooters that I am inclined to believe this must have been managed early on. Who ordered the hit and why is, to me, the most important. However, the Tampa family had run the casinos in Cuba and I'm inclined to believe that most likely at least one of the shooters was Cuban. The other choice is the Corisicans. (I was never told and never asked.) Tell me - have you ever once read or heard about any Kennedy family member asking even one question in public about the assassination ? I'm believing that answer will be no. The Kennedy's knew exactly who and why. There is nothing in the public domain to see or read. There 'was' about two minutes of a taped interview but that interview hasn't been seen in many, many years. Oswald was the CIA's guy and was exactly what he claimed to be - a patsy. This deal could have never stood up to a real investigation so there was never one allowed. How do you admit Jack stole the election ?? This admission would have been necessary for any true investigation. But please remember no investigation was necessary. The Kennedy's already knew who and why. Quickly the entire Mafia, CIA and Secret Service knew who and why. There was much to lose and nothing to gain from the truth. Disclaimer: I have no personal knowledge of any facts surrounding the killing of J. Kennedy. My comments are comprised of rumors, exagerations, half-truths and complete fabrications in order to stimulate discussion about this topic.
Link Posted: 6/2/2002 2:36:24 PM EDT
To the north, Kennedy in PT 109 was leading PTs 162 and 169 on a slow southward sweep. A destroyer suddenly knifed out of the darkness of PT 109's bow. Before the 109 could turn, the destroyer rammed it at full speed. Gasoline burst into flames immediately. This was the flash which silhouetted a destroyer for the 105. Lowrey, in the 162, saw the destroyer as it bore down on Kennedy's boat. His torpedoes would not fire. He finally swerved off to the southwest to avoid collision with the destroyer, then only 100 yards away. Potter, in the 169, fired two torpedoes, but by then the destroyer was only 150 yards away, and the torpedoes probably would not have armed themselves in that distance even if they had hit. The destroyer opened fire on the 169, which zigzagged to the south behind smoke puffs. A few minutes later Potter saw the wake of another destroyer heading toward him from the south. He swung left and fired his last two torpedoes. The destroyer also turned left, just in time, Potter though, for the torpedo to hit its bow and explode. The 169 continued to zigzag south, laying smoke
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Now explain again WHAT Kennedy did to deserve a court martial? What would the skippers of the OTHER PT boats with him have deserved? They were all lying togeather, all doing the same thing. If Kennedy made a mistake it was to try and turn to bring his torpedoes to bear on the DD. If he hadn't tried to shoot the DD the 109 probably could have turned away and just had a glancing collision side to side. What put these boats in this predicament was that the other boats in their squadron who had already made contact never came up on the TBS and said they had made contact and pass the position course and speed of the DDs on to Kennedy's group- which they knew was the one group that contained NO radar equipped boats. Stop trying to play games with history- especally when you don't KNOW what the history is.
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