[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Question for LEO Firearm Instructors (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 6/13/2011 5:38:30 PM EDT
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At the range last week one of the local LEO firearms instructors made a comment about "we don't train our officers to reload with the slide release anymore...." I meant to ask him further but never got the chance. Anyone know about this? I take it when the slide is locked open, and you insert a new mag, you do NOT use the slide release to let the slide go? Why? It doesn't seem to me that there is a difference between the slide release and pulling on the back of the slide to release the slide. The instructor comes in to our store every so often so I am hoping to get an answer from him. |
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There are a few reasons:
Maximizes the spring tension (although some say its not so) A reload is universal by gripping the slide and not looking for a small lever. You could pick up any handgun and do a reload by using the slide. If you are used to a slide release reload on a glock, and pickup a 1911 in a gunfight you may be relying on a slide release that isnt where you think it is. Also it teaches relying on a goss motor skill versus a fine motor skill in a gunfight where you lose dexterity and fine motor control. Short answer is slide reloads are universal. |
| Its more or less easier to pull back the slide when under extreme stress, than it is to hit the slide release. Depending on the size of the gun for the officer, some officers have to move thier hand from their grip to be able to realease it, pulling back the slide shouldn't move the 'strong' hand. |
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There are many schools of thought related to proper technique in reloading and different instructors with teach difference things. One will tell you one way and the next will tell you don't do it that way, do it this way. FWIW, the school of thought that teaches what you described (not using the slide release) is based on the idea that hitting the small slide release is a fine motor skill and grabbing the top of the slide and pulling back to release is a gross (or at least less fine) motor skill. Under stress the ability to perform fine motor skills is diminished so, at least theoretically, hitting the slide release may be a difficult action the perform under the stress of a gunfight.
Also, FWIW, I use the slide release but teach that both are acceptable and encourage students to try both. |
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Simple: using a finger or thumb to use the slide release is a fine motor skill. Under real stress (such as in a gunfight), fine motor skills go away.
Grabbing the entire rear of the slide with your hand is a grosser motor skill and is therefore less likely to desert you under real stress. |
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Out here in my area of California we were trained to depress the slide lock on a reload. I asked my instructor why they were using the slide lock to release the slide and chamber a new round and the answer I got was "Because that's what POST wants." Not in all parts of California. I am a POST certified Firearms Instructor and they don't specify, as far as I know, on how to release the slide on a reload. I teach both methods to officers and cadets and let them pick, but I tell them why I think the gross motor skill of grabbing the sllde and "sling shoting" it forward is better under stress. |
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Simple: using a finger or thumb to use the slide release is a fine motor skill. Under real stress (such as in a gunfight), fine motor skills go away. Grabbing the entire rear of the slide with your hand is a grosser motor skill and is therefore less likely to desert you under real stress. What a crock of shit. How are you going to get the mag out of the gun? Magazine release is going to be smaller then your slide release more then likely. What about aiming thats sure the shit a fine motor skill. OP I have been taught both, found what I liked best and stuck with it. Kyle DeFoors taught using the slide release, I liked it best and thats what I use. Other people like the sling shot method and thats fine to. Both work equally well. |
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Simple: using a finger or thumb to use the slide release is a fine motor skill. Under real stress (such as in a gunfight), fine motor skills go away. Grabbing the entire rear of the slide with your hand is a grosser motor skill and is therefore less likely to desert you under real stress. What a crock of shit. How are you going to get the mag out of the gun? Magazine release is going to be smaller then your slide release more then likely. What about aiming thats sure the shit a fine motor skill. OP I have been taught both, found what I liked best and stuck with it. Kyle DeFoors taught using the slide release, I liked it best and thats what I use. Other people like the sling shot method and thats fine to. Both work equally well. Yup. |
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Simple: using a finger or thumb to use the slide release is a fine motor skill. Under real stress (such as in a gunfight), fine motor skills go away. Grabbing the entire rear of the slide with your hand is a grosser motor skill and is therefore less likely to desert you under real stress. What a crock of shit. How are you going to get the mag out of the gun? Magazine release is going to be smaller then your slide release more then likely. What about aiming thats sure the shit a fine motor skill. OP I have been taught both, found what I liked best and stuck with it. Kyle DeFoors taught using the slide release, I liked it best and thats what I use. Other people like the sling shot method and thats fine to. Both work equally well. Only one way to eject a magazine. What about point shooting? |
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Pulling the slide back and releasing it compresses the spring a little further, giving it a little more force when you release it. It's a gross motor skill versus using your thumb to hit a little lever. That is one point, but the other is about malfunctions. IT is the same grip for reloading and malfunction clearing. Simple movement, no matter the problem. |
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Simple: using a finger or thumb to use the slide release is a fine motor skill. Under real stress (such as in a gunfight), fine motor skills go away. Grabbing the entire rear of the slide with your hand is a grosser motor skill and is therefore less likely to desert you under real stress. What a crock of shit. How are you going to get the mag out of the gun? Magazine release is going to be smaller then your slide release more then likely. What about aiming thats sure the shit a fine motor skill. OP I have been taught both, found what I liked best and stuck with it. Kyle DeFoors taught using the slide release, I liked it best and thats what I use. Other people like the sling shot method and thats fine to. Both work equally well. Only one way to eject a magazine. What about point shooting? What about it? If your only going to use point shooting no doubt your going to get real good at reloading. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Out here in my area of California we were trained to depress the slide lock on a reload. I asked my instructor why they were using the slide lock to release the slide and chamber a new round and the answer I got was "Because that's what POST wants." Not in all parts of California. I am a POST certified Firearms Instructor and they don't specify, as far as I know, on how to release the slide on a reload. I teach both methods to officers and cadets and let them pick, but I tell them why I think the gross motor skill of grabbing the sllde and "sling shoting" it forward is better under stress. Right, that's why I put that was how I was taught in my area. Personally once I didn't have to do it anymore, I transitioned to racking the slide on a reload. Mainly because I found it easier/faster [I didn't modify my Glock with an aftermarket extended slide lock lever] and because I'm primarily a lefty. So it's even easier for me to just do it that way. |
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Simple: using a finger or thumb to use the slide release is a fine motor skill. Under real stress (such as in a gunfight), fine motor skills go away. Grabbing the entire rear of the slide with your hand is a grosser motor skill and is therefore less likely to desert you under real stress. What a crock of shit. How are you going to get the mag out of the gun? Magazine release is going to be smaller then your slide release more then likely. What about aiming thats sure the shit a fine motor skill. OP I have been taught both, found what I liked best and stuck with it. Kyle DeFoors taught using the slide release, I liked it best and thats what I use. Other people like the sling shot method and thats fine to. Both work equally well. Only one way to eject a magazine. What about point shooting? I can't imagine anyone teaching "point shooting" at an LE level. I don't know anyone that does and I sure as hell wouldn't. |
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I have competed under minor stress and successfully used the slide lock/release. I have also shot Sim and used both techniques...your brain will pick one for you under extreme duress if you've played around with both.
Some think the palm-over top can trap brass in the port when clearing stoppages, I think it depends on the pistol design and your training. I think palm-over is more solid, more fingers and palm engaging. If there's shit your pants fear or blood/rain on the weapon, it makes sense to use the technique with a better grip....as opposed to a pinch grip or trying to find the release with an injury, etc. It's also possible to insert an empty mag into the well (stress, darkness) and run the slide forward with the release. This won't happen with a slide pull technique...it obviously stays back. Bottom line is that the slide pull is universal and 100%. If you don't think stress is a factor, wait until you see someone try to load a can of OC spray into a pistol. |
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Quoted: I teach both and let the student decide what works best for them. I'm not into "The Way", more of an "A Way" kind of guy. I do the same but personally use the slide release. During reloads I rest the thumb of my shooting hand ever so slightly on the slide release. The upward pressure of slamming home the magazine automatically causes my thumb to depress the slide release sending the slide home. Makes for a super fast reload..... |
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Simple: using a finger or thumb to use the slide release is a fine motor skill. Under real stress (such as in a gunfight), fine motor skills go away. Grabbing the entire rear of the slide with your hand is a grosser motor skill and is therefore less likely to desert you under real stress. What a crock of shit. How are you going to get the mag out of the gun? Magazine release is going to be smaller then your slide release more then likely. What about aiming thats sure the shit a fine motor skill. OP I have been taught both, found what I liked best and stuck with it. Kyle DeFoors taught using the slide release, I liked it best and thats what I use. Other people like the sling shot method and thats fine to. Both work equally well. Only one way to eject a magazine. What about point shooting? What about it? If your only going to use point shooting no dout your going to get real good at reloading. Just making a point that you have options for some things and not for others. To say aiming is a fine motor skill is true, but you don't always have to aim. Also, some folks have a hard time reaching the slide release/stop as well as the mag release and do not have the option of selecting a weapon more suited to their hand. To teach/learn to not use a tiny piece of metal would be advantageous to those people as well. |
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Simple: using a finger or thumb to use the slide release is a fine motor skill. Under real stress (such as in a gunfight), fine motor skills go away. Grabbing the entire rear of the slide with your hand is a grosser motor skill and is therefore less likely to desert you under real stress. What a crock of shit. How are you going to get the mag out of the gun? Magazine release is going to be smaller then your slide release more then likely. What about aiming thats sure the shit a fine motor skill. OP I have been taught both, found what I liked best and stuck with it. Kyle DeFoors taught using the slide release, I liked it best and thats what I use. Other people like the sling shot method and thats fine to. Both work equally well. Only one way to eject a magazine. What about point shooting? What about it? If your only going to use point shooting no dout your going to get real good at reloading. Just making a point that you have options for some things and not for others. To say aiming is a fine motor skill is true, but you don't always have to aim. Also, some folks have a hard time reaching the slide release/stop as well as the mag release and do not have the option of selecting a weapon more suited to their hand. To teach/learn to not use a tiny piece of metal would be advantageous to those people as well. Like I said. Pick what works best for you and use it. Dont kid yourself one is better then the other though. |
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Simple: using a finger or thumb to use the slide release is a fine motor skill. Under real stress (such as in a gunfight), fine motor skills go away. Grabbing the entire rear of the slide with your hand is a grosser motor skill and is therefore less likely to desert you under real stress. What a crock of shit. How are you going to get the mag out of the gun? Magazine release is going to be smaller then your slide release more then likely. What about aiming thats sure the shit a fine motor skill. OP I have been taught both, found what I liked best and stuck with it. Kyle DeFoors taught using the slide release, I liked it best and thats what I use. Other people like the sling shot method and thats fine to. Both work equally well. this. I had a quote saved somewhere that some big name instructor said. It's basically. "under stress, you can somehow find the tiny magazine release button, that is the size of a pencil eraser. But...when you go to hit a lever that is 3 times the size, all of a sudden your brains fall out and you can't hit the lever???????" I wish I could find that quote. 
ETA: Ive been taught both ways, I think one should use what works best for them. |
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Simple: using a finger or thumb to use the slide release is a fine motor skill. Under real stress (such as in a gunfight), fine motor skills go away. Grabbing the entire rear of the slide with your hand is a grosser motor skill and is therefore less likely to desert you under real stress. What a crock of shit. How are you going to get the mag out of the gun? Magazine release is going to be smaller then your slide release more then likely. What about aiming thats sure the shit a fine motor skill. OP I have been taught both, found what I liked best and stuck with it. Kyle DeFoors taught using the slide release, I liked it best and thats what I use. Other people like the sling shot method and thats fine to. Both work equally well. Only one way to eject a magazine. What about point shooting? I can't imagine anyone teaching "point shooting" at an LE level. I don't know anyone that does and I sure as hell wouldn't. We shoot from the hip (@3 yds) and from low ready (2rds in 1 second @ 7yds) for our agency qualifications and state qualifications. Not much aiming going on. But hey, what would an agency of almost a thousand officers or the state of Florida know? |
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What about point shooting? Close shots, for example under 3-6 feet from bad guy, we all point shoot and thats why I teach it for up close and personal work. Think about it, do you really need your sights up close? It's just as fast to take a step back, draw, flash sight picture and fire as it is to do a shitty, dangerous speed rock or anchor point. Plus it's safer to train. |
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It's also possible to insert an empty mag into the well (stress, darkness) and run the slide forward with the release. This won't happen with a slide pull technique...it obviously stays back. Why would anyone want to do that? Tactical reload, with multiple mags tucked....drop one on the ground in a fighting position where mags have been dumped. (darkness) |
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What about point shooting? Close shots, for example under 3-6 feet from bad guy, we all point shoot and thats why I teach it for up close and personal work. Think about it, do you really need your sights up close? It's just as fast to take a step back, draw, flash sight picture and fire as it is to do a shitty, dangerous speed rock or anchor point. Plus it's safer to train. Yikes! I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that one. Close in point shooting isn't dangerous if well trained plus it is faster and remember, sometimes theres the Quick and the Dead. |
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What about point shooting? Close shots, for example under 3-6 feet from bad guy, we all point shoot and thats why I teach it for up close and personal work. Think about it, do you really need your sights up close? It's just as fast to take a step back, draw, flash sight picture and fire as it is to do a shitty, dangerous speed rock or anchor point. Plus it's safer to train. I don't want to get into a pissing match, but saying taking a step back, bring the weapon up to eye level and firing is a fast as drawing and firing on the way up.... ummm. I'll stick to what I know. |
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If you're using a Walther PP or PPk, or a Kel-Tec P32 or P3AT, your training to use a slide release isn't going to do you any good. Personally, I think it's better to use a technique that will work with your primary gun, your backup gun, and whatever gun you might pick up along the way (partner gives you his BUG, for instance).
On a related note, I prefer for all of my guns to operate in a similiar fashion. I don't get why people will carry a 1911 one day, a Beretta 92 the next, a Sig the after that, and a Glock the following day. People who do that are just asking for a problem, IMO, when they go to operate their safety and think it's Glock day, when it's actually 1911 day. |
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What about point shooting? Close shots, for example under 3-6 feet from bad guy, we all point shoot and thats why I teach it for up close and personal work. Think about it, do you really need your sights up close? It's just as fast to take a step back, draw, flash sight picture and fire as it is to do a shitty, dangerous speed rock or anchor point. Plus it's safer to train. Yikes! I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that one. Close in point shooting isn't dangerous if well trained plus it is faster and remember, sometimes theres the Quick and the Dead. I got myself into the habit of grabbing my shirt (chest area) when hip shooting so my left hand doesn't come out and get in my own way. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What about point shooting? Close shots, for example under 3-6 feet from bad guy, we all point shoot and thats why I teach it for up close and personal work. Think about it, do you really need your sights up close? It's just as fast to take a step back, draw, flash sight picture and fire as it is to do a shitty, dangerous speed rock or anchor point. Plus it's safer to train. I respectfully disagree in that its just as fast. We teach point shooting extensively. Primarily due to our specific environment, which isn't always conducive to 'stepping back' or going to full presentation for a multitude of reasons. With practice, it is just as accurate as getting a flash sight picture... |
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Pulling the slide back and releasing it compresses the spring a little further, giving it a little more force when you release it. It's a gross motor skill versus using your thumb to hit a little lever. This is the best reason to slingshot the slide (or overhand it, if that's your thing) instead of using the slide release (called slide lock on some pistols, notably Glock). |
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If you're using a Walther PP or PPk, or a Kel-Tec P32 or P3AT, your training to use a slide release isn't going to do you any good. Personally, I think it's better to use a technique that will work with your primary gun, your backup gun, and whatever gun you might pick up along the way (partner gives you his BUG, for instance). On a related note, I prefer for all of my guns to operate in a similiar fashion. I don't get why people will carry a 1911 one day, a Beretta 92 the next, a Sig the after that, and a Glock the following day. People who do that are just asking for a problem, IMO, when they go to operate their safety and think it's Glock day, when it's actually 1911 day. I agree on the first part, although I will switch up CCW's regularly. I don't know. I have too many choices I guess. I do worry about taking the safety off when it applies. |
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Quoted: On a related note, I prefer for all of my guns to operate in a similiar fashion. I don't get why people will carry a 1911 one day, a Beretta 92 the next, a Sig the after that, and a Glock the following day. People who do that are just asking for a problem, IMO, when they go to operate their safety and think it's Glock day, when it's actually 1911 day. You make an excellent point here, and thus the reason why I practice with and carry Sigs almost exclusively. |
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Out here in my area of California we were trained to depress the slide lock on a reload. I asked my instructor why they were using the slide lock to release the slide and chamber a new round and the answer I got was "Because that's what POST wants." POST does not mandate that. Not in all parts of California. I am a POST certified Firearms Instructor and they don't specify, as far as I know, on how to release the slide on a reload. I teach both methods to officers and cadets and let them pick, but I tell them why I think the gross motor skill of grabbing the sllde and "sling shoting" it forward is better under stress.
Same here, and it is the same grip used during malfunction clearing so it saves a step and makes life KISS simple. |
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On a related note, I prefer for all of my guns to operate in a similiar fashion. I don't get why people will carry a 1911 one day, a Beretta 92 the next, a Sig the after that, and a Glock the following day. People who do that are just asking for a problem, IMO, when they go to operate their safety and think it's Glock day, when it's actually 1911 day. You make an excellent point here, and thus the reason why I practice with and carry Sigs almost exclusively. Sigs for me to. |
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What about point shooting? Close shots, for example under 3-6 feet from bad guy, we all point shoot and thats why I teach it for up close and personal work. Think about it, do you really need your sights up close? It's just as fast to take a step back, draw, flash sight picture and fire as it is to do a shitty, dangerous speed rock or anchor point. Plus it's safer to train. Yikes! I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that one. Close in point shooting isn't dangerous if well trained plus it is faster and remember, sometimes theres the Quick and the Dead. I got myself into the habit of grabbing my shirt (chest area) when hip shooting so my left hand doesn't come out and get in my own way. I'm not disagreeing that it doesn't have a place and when we have trained that is exactly what I do and have the students do. IF the officer is in a struggle and cannot break free then so be it. However, I have timed it with a PACT and the differences are negligible and I rather have them practice a disengaging technique that they are far more likely to do instinctively. I teach mostly at the basic level, a 48 hour program and at that level with 30ish students the proficiency is just not up to that change. On a side note I'm about 5'6" and when I do an anchor point I'm normally hitting a target my height at about belly button level. I'd rather take a step back while drawing, get both hands on the gun and get four or five rounds at the high COM especially if I'm shooting at an IPSC set at 5'10" to 6'. I think we are accomplishing the same task with different methods. |
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Quoted: Simple: using a finger or thumb to use the slide release is a fine motor skill. Under real stress (such as in a gunfight), fine motor skills go away. Grabbing the entire rear of the slide with your hand is a grosser motor skill and is therefore less likely to desert you under real stress. One thing I keep in mind is that I have to use my thumb to hit the magazine release. If I can do it for that, I can do it for the slide. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I teach both and let the student decide what works best for them. I'm not into "The Way", more of an "A Way" kind of guy. I do the same but personally use the slide release. During reloads I rest the thumb of my shooting hand ever so slightly on the slide release. The upward pressure of slamming home the magazine automatically causes my thumb to depress the slide release sending the slide home. Makes for a super fast reload..... I'm a 1911 guy and I use the slide stop as a release as do most of our 1911 shooters. I find that it's faster and allows me to get lead on the target quicker. Our issue Glock shooters almost always sling shot the slide because there is no slide stop to speak of. |
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Quoted: Yup, for those up close and personal "oh shit" moments when you need to get accurate lead down range quick, fast and in a hurry.Quoted: What about point shooting? Close shots, for example under 3-6 feet from bad guy, we all point shoot and thats why I teach it for up close and personal work. Think about it, do you really need your sights up close? |
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Yup, for those up close and personal "oh shit" moments when you need to get accurate lead down range quick, fast and in a hurry.
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What about point shooting? Close shots, for example under 3-6 feet from bad guy, we all point shoot and thats why I teach it for up close and personal work. Think about it, do you really need your sights up close? this.....i want them to be the first to get steel on target and win the gunfight. 
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Simple: using a finger or thumb to use the slide release is a fine motor skill. Under real stress (such as in a gunfight), fine motor skills go away. Grabbing the entire rear of the slide with your hand is a grosser motor skill and is therefore less likely to desert you under real stress. What a crock of shit. How are you going to get the mag out of the gun? Magazine release is going to be smaller then your slide release more then likely. What about aiming thats sure the shit a fine motor skill. OP I have been taught both, found what I liked best and stuck with it. Kyle DeFoors taught using the slide release, I liked it best and thats what I use. Other people like the sling shot method and thats fine to. Both work equally well. Yup. Glock just increased the size of the magazine release on the fourth generation models. If you look at guns designed from experience for use at high speed, like IPSC guns, they've been using large magazine releases for decades. The size of the magazine release is limited in a duty weapon. If you make it too big, it becomes susceptible to accidental release. It also becomes possible to release the magazine if the shooter has to shoot off hand. HK put it under the trigger guard, but it still has to be small so that it doesn't interfere with hand placement. Rohrbaugh put it at the base of the grip because they didn't want it to be accidentally depressed if the pistol was carried in a pocket. Meanwhile, there is no such limitation on the ass end of the slide. It's very easy to grab it, although it does take an extra fraction of a second to get back to a firing position. That said, Kahr made their springs heavy and made it difficult to close the pistol on an empty slide precisely because the gun was intended for combat and they didn't want the shooter to accidentally close it on an empty slide. |