Posted: 6/13/2011 9:24:10 AM EDT
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HOA in Florida is proposing to patrol the community with a drug detecting dog in an effort to prevent crime and drug use. I don't use drugs but something about this bothers me. Seems like an unwarranted search to me.
I post this in GD as the anticipated witty responses might be humorous as well as to seek educated discussion. |
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HOA in Florida is proposing to patrol the community with a drug detecting dog in an effort to prevent crime and drug use. I don't use drugs but something about this bothers me. Seems like an unwarranted search to me. I post this in GD as the anticipated witty responses might be humorous as well as to seek educated discussion. Is your HOA part of the .gov? No? They can do whatever the fuck you agree to let them do in the contract. |
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Quoted: Quoted: A private citizen can not violate another person's civil rights. Unless you sign a contract allowing them to violate them. I wish I'd understood HOA's better before I signed on the dotted line...but somtimes you learn the hard way. Sorry. I didn't word that correctly. It's impossible for a private citizen to violate another private citizen's civil rights because, in simple terms, they aren't in a position of sworn authority. |
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"Patrolling the community" in what way? Going up to your car, your front door, around your yard, through your trash?? Or do they expect you to allow them to come in to your home for a look (or sniff) around? Sounds like grounds for a shit load of lawyer intervention..... |
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That is not true. What is true is that, except in limited circumstances, the federal constitution does not protect one's civil rights from being violated by private parties. I think you are mistaken. Civil rights are specifically rights which protect individuals from the governement. Offenses that are soley citizen to citizen are not civil rights violations. (Although this concept has been preverted over the last 50 years.) |
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The real answer is: it depends.
Is it fucked up? Yeah. Is it legal? Depends on how they do it. How close are they getting to what the courts have deemed violations of rights, either of 4th amendment search and seizure or other basic enumerated and implied rights the courts have chosen to protect? I mean, if they have some retiree walking around the community with a "drug dog" as little more than conceptual deterrence then there's not really a violation. If they claim that something written or implied in your private contract allows them to admit police into your home with no reason or cause in order to ensure drug policy compliance then we'ret into the area that the courts would have some things to say. Just not enough details to judge. |
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Quoted: Quoted: That is not true. What is true is that, except in limited circumstances, the federal constitution does not protect one's civil rights from being violated by private parties. I think you are mistaken. Civil rights are specifically rights which protect individuals from the governement. Offenses that are soley citizen to citizen are not civil rights violations. (Although this concept has been preverted over the last 50 years.) You're playing a semantics game here. |
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OK, I'll try to give more details and keep it as brief as I can to remain tolerable.
I'm a Regional Property Manager for a large property management company. One of the Apartment Communities I oversee is a member of a master HOA that comprises 7 communities in total. Six condo communities; each with their own HOA, and my apartment community (we don't have an HOA being an apt community but are members of the master association). President of master community HOA wants to hire a security company with their own drug dogs to patrol the member's properties with said dog in an effort to "prevent crime and drug use in the communities". This struck me as problematic so I did some searching. I replied to his e-mail with: "How would you use the dogs?" [and attached this] http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/04/14/2169164/state-high-court-limits-police.html ETA There is nothing in the Master Property Owner's Association Charter that allows for them to be involved in anyway inside the individual communites aside from color and archetuctural issues. |
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HOA in Florida is proposing to patrol the community with a drug detecting dog in an effort to prevent crime and drug use. I don't use drugs but something about this bothers me. Seems like an unwarranted search to me. I post this in GD as the anticipated witty responses might be humorous as well as to seek educated discussion. Is your HOA part of the .gov? No? They can do whatever the fuck you agree to let them do in the contract. Well that's not true. But in this case, there is nothing illegal about it even if cops were doing it. |
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<...> They can do whatever the fuck you agree to let them do in the contract. Well that's not true. But in this case, there is nothing illegal about it even if cops were doing it. It is a close approximation of "true." As far as the police patrolling with drug dogs, it would depend on what they do. Walking the street? Legal Sniffing cars in the street? Legal Walking up driveways? illegal sniffing cars on private property? illegal sniffing homes? illegal |
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HOA in Florida is proposing to patrol the community with a drug detecting dog in an effort to prevent crime and drug use. I don't use drugs but something about this bothers me. Seems like an unwarranted search to me. I post this in GD as the anticipated witty responses might be humorous as well as to seek educated discussion. Is your HOA part of the .gov? No? They can do whatever the fuck you agree to let them do in the contract. It's not quite that simple. If their purpose and intent is to use ostensible private actors to ferret out drugs in order to then turn the people right over to the government, and the government (i.e., the local police) have an agreement with them to pursue this, then there are any number of cases that say that this is "government action" such that the 4th Amendment applies. That said, I doubt there is any reasonable expectation of privacy if they're talking about using the dogs only to check "common areas" of the neighborhood. If they're asking to come inside your home - then yeah, fuck that. |
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<...> They can do whatever the fuck you agree to let them do in the contract. Well that's not true. But in this case, there is nothing illegal about it even if cops were doing it. It is a close approximation of "true." As far as the police patrolling with drug dogs, it would depend on what they do. Walking the street? Legal Sniffing cars in the street? Legal Walking up driveways? illegal sniffing cars on private property? illegal sniffing homes? illegal If you want to start a semantics argument with someone else, and argue legality with me, you should probably use smarter language than you have to this point. Also, that you want to argue using definite terms makes me want to go do something other than this. |
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If you want to start a semantics argument with someone else, and argue legality with me, you should probably use smarter language than you have to this point. Also, that you want to argue using definite terms makes me want to go do something other than this. JFC, are we arguing on the internet about something we have about 10 sentances of information? 
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It's not quite that simple. If their purpose and intent is to use ostensible private actors to ferret out drugs in order to then turn the people right over to the government, and the government (i.e., the local police) have an agreement with them to pursue this, then there are any number of cases that say that this is "government action" such that the 4th Amendment applies. That said, I doubt there is any reasonable expectation of privacy if they're talking about using the dogs only to check "common areas" of the neighborhood. If they're asking to come inside your home - then yeah, fuck that. Well yea, the .gov can not contract out it's work to be unemcumbered by the Constitution. |
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If you want to start a semantics argument with someone else, and argue legality with me, you should probably use smarter language than you have to this point. Also, that you want to argue using definite terms makes me want to go do something other than this. JFC, are we arguing on the internet about something we have about 10 sentances of information? That's my point. You are using a lot of definite terms with very little information. Making sweeping statements that can only be made with caveats that you don't make until after someone else points them out. |
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That's my point. You are using a lot of definite terms with very little information. Making sweeping statements that can only be made with caveats that you don't make until after someone else points them out. Quoted:
But in this case, there is nothing illegal about it even if cops were doing it. 
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That's my point. You are using a lot of definite terms with very little information. Making sweeping statements that can only be made with caveats that you don't make until after someone else points them out. Quoted:
But in this case, there is nothing illegal about it even if cops were doing it. http://mychinaconnection.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/pot-kettle-black-by-john-takai-dreamstime.jpg Based upon what was said, "it" means "patrol." There is nothing illegal about patrolling. Sniffing under cars and within the curtilage is not "patrolling;" it is a type of search. But point taken. |
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HOA in Florida is proposing to patrol the community with a drug detecting dog in an effort to prevent crime and drug use. I don't use drugs but something about this bothers me. Seems like an unwarranted search to me. I post this in GD as the anticipated witty responses might be humorous as well as to seek educated discussion. Is your HOA part of the .gov? No? They can do whatever the fuck you agree to let them do in the contract. this, 4th amendment (or any amendment for that matter) only applied to .gov. Now if they are using the local PD to do this you may have a case, but if Bob down the street has a trained dog and is doing on his own at the request of the HOA, well dont see much you can do other than get REALLLLLLLLLL pissy if they come on your actual property (unless the by laws that you agreed to be living there allow them too, LOL). J- |
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"Patrolling the community" in what way? Going up to your car, your front door, around your yard, through your trash?? Or do they expect you to allow them to come in to your home for a look (or sniff) around? Sounds like grounds for a shit load of lawyer intervention..... Actually once out to the curb ANYONE including .gov can go through your trash with out a warrant etc. J- |
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OK, I'll try to give more details and keep it as brief as I can to remain tolerable. I'm a Regional Property Manager for a large property management company. One of the Apartment Communities I oversee is a member of a master HOA that comprises 7 communities in total. Six condo communities; each with their own HOA, and my apartment community (we don't have an HOA being an apt community but are members of the master association). President of master community HOA wants to hire a security company with their own drug dogs to patrol the member's properties with said dog in an effort to "prevent crime and drug use in the communities". This struck me as problematic so I did some searching. I replied to his e-mail with: "How would you use the dogs?" [and attached this] http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/04/14/2169164/state-high-court-limits-police.html ETA There is nothing in the Master Property Owner's Association Charter that allows for them to be involved in anyway inside the individual communites aside from color and archetuctural issues. if a normal citizen can walk their dog in the same area then the security can walk their drug dog too. No legal issue there. The issue becomes what do you do when the dog hits on some weed? and trust me it won't take long. The answer is nothing, the cops will laugh at the security guard if he is reporting people smoking weed in their house. |
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OK, I'll try to give more details and keep it as brief as I can to remain tolerable. I'm a Regional Property Manager for a large property management company. One of the Apartment Communities I oversee is a member of a master HOA that comprises 7 communities in total. Six condo communities; each with their own HOA, and my apartment community (we don't have an HOA being an apt community but are members of the master association). President of master community HOA wants to hire a security company with their own drug dogs to patrol the member's properties with said dog in an effort to "prevent crime and drug use in the communities". This struck me as problematic so I did some searching. I replied to his e-mail with: "How would you use the dogs?" [and attached this] http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/04/14/2169164/state-high-court-limits-police.html ETA There is nothing in the Master Property Owner's Association Charter that allows for them to be involved in anyway inside the individual communites aside from color and archetuctural issues. Thats a bad ruling in Florida, not a good example for your state. There is plenty of case law to support what they did one bad ruling doesn't change things. and what the security guys is asking to do has nothing to do with that ruling. |
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HOA in Florida is proposing to patrol the community with a drug detecting dog in an effort to prevent crime and drug use. I don't use drugs but something about this bothers me. Seems like an unwarranted search to me. I post this in GD as the anticipated witty responses might be humorous as well as to seek educated discussion. So, someone is sitting inside or on their patio enjoying an 'herb'... the dog goes by, alerts on the smell. Then what? Is it a violation of the HOA to use illegal drugs? Who trained the dog? Who's handling the dog? What do they do with the information? Is the dog right 100% of the time? What if it's a visitor to the complex? I'm in with the guy who said it's a good way to involve a bunch of lawyers. Tell the HOA to mind their own business and pay attention to lawns, gardens, roofs, streets and pools! |
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HOA in Florida is proposing to patrol the community with a drug detecting dog in an effort to prevent crime and drug use. I don't use drugs but something about this bothers me. Seems like an unwarranted search to me. I post this in GD as the anticipated witty responses might be humorous as well as to seek educated discussion. So, someone is sitting inside or on their patio enjoying an 'herb'... the dog goes by, alerts on the smell. Then what? Is it a violation of the HOA to use illegal drugs? Who trained the dog? Who's handling the dog? What do they do with the information? Is the dog right 100% of the time? What if it's a visitor to the complex? I'm in with the guy who said it's a good way to involve a bunch of lawyers. Tell the HOA to mind their own business and pay attention to lawns, gardens, roofs, streets and pools! Have no answers to your questions. Made me think of the police deciding to walk up and down the street with a drug dog and using that for probable cause to invade people's homes and property. Oh, and 1/10 fail on the anticipated whitty GD responses. |