Posted: 5/4/2011 5:46:30 PM EDT
Local city tried to go to a public safety type setup. Were going to can most of the FD, expand the PD [yet they just laid off 10 officers  ] then cross train the PD to respond to emer/fire calls in their cars, dress, and wait for someone to bring the fire trucks. Nothing like the last 3 weeks of the FD union hyping fire response and safety and the PD union responding with their own commercials touting how more cops are needed 24/7 on the radio. To top if off, one of the laid off cops got the "officer of the year" award the day they let him go. At least he already has another job at another PD.
In the end, the voters turned down the request, some of that was due to the stupid city officials telling everyone they would have to vote for it before they could look into if it would save any money. Looks like someone was listening to Pelosi and the health care debacle. IMHO, if you can't afford a reasonable sized PD and FD [if you have cops doing seat belt ticket duty and other stupid things then you have to many cops] you may as well quit being a city, that is actually one of the few things taxes should be paying for. Whats even funner is the fact that the local school teacher unions have to hype themselves in commercials 20 times a day to make sure they are not forgotten when it comes to the tax trough and that they are the most important part of the local tax base because of "the chillren". I will say this, I know a LOT more teachers who live in high on the hog [bigger houses on the lakes and better neighborhoods] then I do cops and FF's. I did call in once and ask, after a fire, who exactly was going to clean and reload the fire trucks and re roll the hoses and such and the response was they would have a couple guys take an hour or two to get them ready to go again. I just sort of laughed and said OOOOOOOOK. Knowing how many welfare complexes there are locally in the city, I have a dang good idea where a lot of the tax dollars are going. They also seem to have money to donate to local non profits every year also. It would seem that that is the first place to cut funding as that is not something tax dollars should go to before actual city services are paid for. |
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Sounds like more people who are trying to make new plans but really don't have any idea about the things they are trying to get to take place.  They don't, they flat out admitted they had no idea if it would save any money if they went with it when they had one of the public meetings on the changes. |
| I'm cross trained Fire, LEO and EMT. I will tell you combining services IS NOT a good idea! I now only do fire and EMS and that itself is a butt load of knowledge to keep track of. Both jobs require an individual to be sharp in that field lacking in either Will get someone killed. Ive been in fire for 6 yrs and feel like I'm still learning or relearning things. I'm in medic school on top of that and it is definitely over-whelming. It's easy for someone who doesn't walk in my shoes to sit here and say we don't have enough to do for that "huge" pay check I get. |
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I'm cross trained Fire, LEO and EMT. I will tell you combining services IS NOT a good idea! I now only do fire and EMS and that itself is a butt load of knowledge to keep track of. Both jobs require an individual to be sharp in that field lacking in either Will get someone killed. Ive been in fire for 6 yrs and feel like I'm still learning or relearning things. I'm in medic school on top of that and it is definitely over-whelming. It's easy for someone who doesn't walk in my shoes to sit here and say we don't have enough to do for that "huge" pay check I get. I have no issue with cops being cops and FF's being FF's. I know the city handed over a couple hundred K to non profits last year. In my book, you pay for basic meat and potato services [water sewer, police FD before you spend money on the gravy. I think police wise, they could stand to be cut simply because they always had personal to waste money on doing seat belt enforcement stings and other frivolous details. Then they bought a segway or two and had some officer tooling around on it downtown. Thats after they spent $$$$$$ on bikes and stuff. Can't fault the actual patrol officers for that, that is admin stupidity and some green weenies on the city board. |
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I'm cross trained Fire, LEO and EMT. I will tell you combining services IS NOT a good idea! I now only do fire and EMS and that itself is a butt load of knowledge to keep track of. Both jobs require an individual to be sharp in that field lacking in either Will get someone killed. Ive been in fire for 6 yrs and feel like I'm still learning or relearning things. I'm in medic school on top of that and it is definitely over-whelming. It's easy for someone who doesn't walk in my shoes to sit here and say we don't have enough to do for that "huge" pay check I get. I have no issue with cops being cops and FF's being FF's. I know the city handed over a couple hundred K to non profits last year. In my book, you pay for basic meat and potato services [water sewer, police FD before you spend money on the gravy. I think police wise, they could stand to be cut simply because they always had personal to waste money on doing seat belt enforcement stings and other frivolous details. Then they bought a segway or two and had some officer tooling around on it downtown. Thats after they spent $$$$$$ on bikes and stuff. Can't fault the actual patrol officers for that, that is admin stupidity and some green weenies on the city board. I understand what you are talking about. Our city keeps telling us they are broke at the same time buying a whole fleet of automated garbage trucks.
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Quoted: Switch to an all volunteer fire department. Tends to make everybody a bit nicer and polite when they don't know if they are talking to a fireman or not. That makes too much sense. Big cities look down on volunteers. Not "professional" enough. I say reduce the paid FF to a core of a handful of experienced paid, then open up the rest of the man power to volunteers. |
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Switch to an all volunteer police department. Swear in everyone that asks and passes a "Are you a convicted felon" test. Everyone will be a lot nicer when 75% of the town is an off duty cop with most of them carrying guns. 75% of the town will be in jail if everyone that isn't a felon is sworn in as a police officer 
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Switch to an all volunteer fire department. Tends to make everybody a bit nicer and polite when they don't know if they are talking to a fireman or not. That makes too much sense. Big cities look down on volunteers. Not "professional" enough. I say reduce the paid FF to a core of a handful of experienced paid, then open up the rest of the man power to volunteers. Where I'm from the only paid guys are the drivers. |
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As a VFF for 21+ years and a paid guy for 18+, allow me to offer a few problems with the "revert to volunteer" idea.
The number of personnel and types of department are typically driven / justified by the number of calls for service every year. More calls should equal more staffing and equipment. This is how and why most departments progress from VFD's to part-paid (a few paid guys the rest VFF's) or p/t and eventually to f/t. Because it's an emergency service you can't know in advance when the emergencies will be, so you can never "staff for the disaster". This is true on any FD of whatever status. You'll never have all seats on all rigs filled and a few guys back at the station to help with paperwork and refills. Even the richest town you could name can't justify that degree of staffing, so you base your numbers of the averages. Disasters and other big calls are why there are mutual aid agreements...but those aren't meant to supplement FD's for routine calls. Use them "too much" (typically as decided by the neighboring Chiefs) and you'll find your incoming responses rationed. You don't know who you're going to get and when. Some FD's try to implement "standby hours" or arrange p/t instead of f/t positions to work around this, but then you're creeping back towards a f/t FD. Most states have requirements for a certain amount of training, which costs money and time.Training also makes your FF's more hireable by a f/t FD or a FD that pays more (or at all in a true VFD). Additionally, if the FD runs EMS, there's more training as well as the Continuing Education hours that are required either nationally or by the state for the folks to maintain their licenses. Not enough licensed staff? No EMS for you. And most of the citizens in f/t FD towns have grown accustomed to a certain level of service. Not saying V or p/t FD's are less professional (that's an attitude, not a job description  ), but longer response times or decreased level of service (say, EMT Basic instead of the ALS Paramedics they've been used to) can cause taxpayers to say "WTF?", espeically after enough incidents hit the papers.
The last thing? The "SEP" effect. We see this all the time. A smoke detector has been sounding but nobody calls... somebody gets jumped but nobody calls or "dinnit see nuffin"... roll down the street and drivers look in the mirror, then lock their gaze forward and refuse to yield. On a RKBA note, it's the same attitude that says "why own a gun? Just call the police". Why? SEP - Somebody Else's Problem. Nobody wants to get involved these days, be it from an hyperactive worry about "liability" or getting involved means paperwork and time occupied by The Man. And wouldn't you know it, I'd love to sign up for that but my favorite TV show is that evening and I never miss it. FWIW My Dad showed me an article in the WSJ about the declining numbers of volunteers for community groups like VFD's and the like. Dad died in '96, but the situation still hasn't changed for the better.
Apologies for any rambling. I'm tired.
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I'm cross trained Fire, LEO and EMT. I will tell you combining services IS NOT a good idea! I now only do fire and EMS and that itself is a butt load of knowledge to keep track of. Both jobs require an individual to be sharp in that field lacking in either Will get someone killed. Ive been in fire for 6 yrs and feel like I'm still learning or relearning things. I'm in medic school on top of that and it is definitely over-whelming. It's easy for someone who doesn't walk in my shoes to sit here and say we don't have enough to do for that "huge" pay check I get. I have no issue with cops being cops and FF's being FF's. I know the city handed over a couple hundred K to non profits last year. In my book, you pay for basic meat and potato services [water sewer, police FD before you spend money on the gravy. I think police wise, they could stand to be cut simply because they always had personal to waste money on doing seat belt enforcement stings and other frivolous details. Then they bought a segway or two and had some officer tooling around on it downtown. Thats after they spent $$$$$$ on bikes and stuff. Can't fault the actual patrol officers for that, that is admin stupidity and some green weenies on the city board. I understand what you are talking about. Our city keeps telling us they are broke at the same time buying a whole fleet of automated garbage trucks. They bought automated garbage trucks here, each truck can pick up a larger area, and there's a 50% reduction in staffing. So it will result in a cost savings rather quickly. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I'm cross trained Fire, LEO and EMT. I will tell you combining services IS NOT a good idea! I now only do fire and EMS and that itself is a butt load of knowledge to keep track of. Both jobs require an individual to be sharp in that field lacking in either Will get someone killed. Ive been in fire for 6 yrs and feel like I'm still learning or relearning things. I'm in medic school on top of that and it is definitely over-whelming. It's easy for someone who doesn't walk in my shoes to sit here and say we don't have enough to do for that "huge" pay check I get. I have no issue with cops being cops and FF's being FF's. I know the city handed over a couple hundred K to non profits last year. In my book, you pay for basic meat and potato services [water sewer, police FD before you spend money on the gravy. I think police wise, they could stand to be cut simply because they always had personal to waste money on doing seat belt enforcement stings and other frivolous details. Then they bought a segway or two and had some officer tooling around on it downtown. Thats after they spent $$$$$$ on bikes and stuff. Can't fault the actual patrol officers for that, that is admin stupidity and some green weenies on the city board. Okay, I was going to ask which city, but after reading that, I'll take a guess: Ferndale? |
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As a VFF for 21+ years and a paid guy for 18+, allow me to offer a few problems with the "revert to volunteer" idea. The number of personnel and types of department are typically driven / justified by the number of calls for service every year. More calls should equal more staffing and equipment. This is how and why most departments progress from VFD's to part-paid (a few paid guys the rest VFF's) or p/t and eventually to f/t. Because it's an emergency service you can't know in advance when the emergencies will be, so you can never "staff for the disaster". This is true on any FD of whatever status. You'll never have all seats on all rigs filled and a few guys back at the station to help with paperwork and refills. Even the richest town you could name can't justify that degree of staffing, so you base your numbers of the averages. Disasters and other big calls are why there are mutual aid agreements...but those aren't meant to supplement FD's for routine calls. Use them "too much" (typically as decided by the neighboring Chiefs) and you'll find your incoming responses rationed. You don't know who you're going to get and when. Some FD's try to implement "standby hours" or arrange p/t instead of f/t positions to work around this, but then you're creeping back towards a f/t FD. Most states have requirements for a certain amount of training, which costs money and time.Training also makes your FF's more hireable by a f/t FD or a FD that pays more (or at all in a true VFD). Additionally, if the FD runs EMS, there's more training as well as the Continuing Education hours that are required either nationally or by the state for the folks to maintain their licenses. Not enough licensed staff? No EMS for you. And most of the citizens in f/t FD towns have grown accustomed to a certain level of service. Not saying V or p/t FD's are less professional (that's an attitude, not a job description ), but longer response times or decreased level of service (say, EMT Basic instead of the ALS Paramedics they've been used to) can cause taxpayers to say "WTF?", espeically after enough incidents hit the papers.The VFD's around here are pre-paid for everybody to go through schooling on fires as well as EMT and water rescue. It's a nice resume pad thing as well, and the only "understaffed" fire departments here are the cities with > 100k population. I do see your point a bit, but I also think if that was The Only Option, things would be simplified. As you said, fires aren't a continual issue (other than July 4th in a dry year), so why staff hundreds of people to hang around, especially at union wages. As far as police go, that is a continual need in many areas, while in many around here, the Sheriff and deputies handle the calls for the entire county and still play cards a lot. A standing and patrolling police force is needed in any semi-urban to urban area. This does not mean that an officer in White, SD needs the same salary as an NYPD officer working the Bronx, however. |
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I think police wise, they could stand to be cut simply because they always had personal to waste money on doing seat belt enforcement stings and other frivolous details. Then they bought a segway or two and had some officer tooling around on it downtown. Thats after they spent $$$$$$ on bikes and stuff. Can't fault the actual patrol officers for that, that is admin stupidity and some green weenies on the city board. Details like that are usually handled by guys on an OT status because the guys working their regular shift are handling calls. A guy working traffic between calls is being productive. The other stuff is probably bought by grant money and in order to get the grant, a need had to be demonstrated. You may not recognize the need, but it had to be laid out in the grant application. |
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I think police wise, they could stand to be cut simply because they always had personal to waste money on doing seat belt enforcement stings and other frivolous details. Then they bought a segway or two and had some officer tooling around on it downtown. Thats after they spent $$$$$$ on bikes and stuff. Can't fault the actual patrol officers for that, that is admin stupidity and some green weenies on the city board. Details like that are usually handled by guys on an OT status because the guys working their regular shift are handling calls. A guy working traffic between calls is being productive. The other stuff is probably bought by grant money and in order to get the grant, a need had to be demonstrated. You may not recognize the need, but it had to be laid out in the grant application. True about the grants but that is still wasted tax dollars on a detail that shouldn't even exist in the first place. What people locally have wanted for years is more patrols [actually driving around in the higher crime areas] , less traffic sitting in their cars in the same places every day on a road that should be signed 10 MPH higher then it is. I can't blame them for that. [and it's been decades since I've gotten a ticket for anything so I don't have a dog in that fight] In the end, it's all about how tax dollars are spent and knowing the difference between wants and needs when it's time to dole it out. |
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Quoted: Switch to an all volunteer police department. Swear in everyone that asks and passes a "Are you a convicted felon" test. Everyone will be a lot nicer when 75% of the town is an off duty cop with most of them carrying guns. If we're talking about Benton Harbor, you'd be lucky to have 50% not be felons. |
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True about the grants but that is still wasted tax dollars on a detail that shouldn't even exist in the first place. What people locally have wanted for years is more patrols [actually driving around in the higher crime areas] , less traffic sitting in their cars in the same places every day on a road that should be signed 10 MPH higher then it is. ...In the end, it's all about how tax dollars are spent and knowing the difference between wants and needs when it's time to dole it out. The fact remains that seat belt use is tied in to accident/ injury rates. You aren't going to see the enforcement drives go away because of that. I know all about the desires of the public. Sometimes thsoe cars are sitting in a particular spot because thats the best place to sit/ observe/ pull out into traffic safely, etc. As for signed speed limits, you can almost always find residents who want their speed limts even lower than it already is, want traffic calming measures installed ( curb bump-outs, speed bumps, etc ), etc. Speed complaints are still among the single largest complaint type received by most agencies, so you aren't going to see a cutback in that area. Quoted:
Switch to an all volunteer police department. Swear in everyone that asks and passes a "Are you a convicted felon" test. Everyone will be a lot nicer when 75% of the town is an off duty cop with most of them carrying guns. I don't think you'll find any town where 3/4 of the population will set aside 7 months of their life to become an LEO. Come back with a better suggestion. The days of deputizing a posse to ride after the bank robbers went away a century ago. |
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I will say this, I know a LOT more teachers who live in high on the hog [bigger houses on the lakes and better neighborhoods] then I do cops and FF's. Most teachers are women, who have husbands who are the real breadwinners. Most LEOs and FFs are men, who have wives who may or may not even work. My wife (public school teacher) and my neighbor (HPD officer) make within $10k of each other. Before I lost my job, I was making nearly $60k. My HPD officer friend's wife doesn't work. This is why "that teacher in that house" lives so much higher on the hog than "that LEO in that house." The rest of your post is golden; city governments are the most inept because they've already risen to their level of incompetence and it's turned out to be the most local level. ETA: In this case the LEO is making more than the teacher. They both have about 4 years experience. |
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True about the grants but that is still wasted tax dollars on a detail that shouldn't even exist in the first place. What people locally have wanted for years is more patrols [actually driving around in the higher crime areas] , less traffic sitting in their cars in the same places every day on a road that should be signed 10 MPH higher then it is. ...In the end, it's all about how tax dollars are spent and knowing the difference between wants and needs when it's time to dole it out. The fact remains that seat belt use is tied in to accident/ injury rates. You aren't going to see the enforcement drives go away because of that. I know all about the desires of the public. Sometimes thsoe cars are sitting in a particular spot because thats the best place to sit/ observe/ pull out into traffic safely, etc. As for signed speed limits, you can almost always find residents who want their speed limts even lower than it already is, want traffic calming measures installed ( curb bump-outs, speed bumps, etc ), etc. Speed complaints are still among the single largest complaint type received by most agencies, so you aren't going to see a cutback in that area. Quoted:
Switch to an all volunteer police department. Swear in everyone that asks and passes a "Are you a convicted felon" test. Everyone will be a lot nicer when 75% of the town is an off duty cop with most of them carrying guns. I don't think you'll find any town where 3/4 of the population will set aside 7 months of their life to become an LEO. Come back with a better suggestion. The days of deputizing a posse to ride after the bank robbers went away a century ago. Seat belt fines and enforcement for adults is a totally BS scheme by those in power to play God. If you want to pick glass out of your eyeballs and remove your teeth from the steering wheel, be my guest. It's not a crime against anyone else and quite frankly, if you desire to drive without belting up, and get in a wreck, society should say tough shit and refuse to pick up the tab. However, since society is stupid enough to pay for idiots to do all sorts of other things [like screw and get preggo and let society pay for YOUR kid] I fail to see why seatbelt violations are a monetary fine and getting knocked up isn't. A $500 "screwing while stupid" fine may be just the ticket for those who think below the belt.
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if you desire to drive without belting up, and get in a wreck, society should say tough shit and refuse to pick up the tab. However, since society is stupid enough to pay for idiots to do all sorts of other things [like screw and get preggo and let society pay for YOUR kid] I fail to see why seatbelt violations are a monetary fine and getting knocked up isn't. You can't compare getting tossed through your windshield to getting pregnant. |
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if you desire to drive without belting up, and get in a wreck, society should say tough shit and refuse to pick up the tab. However, since society is stupid enough to pay for idiots to do all sorts of other things [like screw and get preggo and let society pay for YOUR kid] I fail to see why seatbelt violations are a monetary fine and getting knocked up isn't. You can't compare getting tossed through your windshield to getting pregnant. Sure you can, both can be caused by the lack of protection. |
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if you desire to drive without belting up, and get in a wreck, society should say tough shit and refuse to pick up the tab. However, since society is stupid enough to pay for idiots to do all sorts of other things [like screw and get preggo and let society pay for YOUR kid] I fail to see why seatbelt violations are a monetary fine and getting knocked up isn't. You can't compare getting tossed through your windshield to getting pregnant. Sure you can - he did 
Brian |