Posted: 4/21/2011 7:58:41 PM EDT
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Evening,
Kids (two boys age 9 and 8) expressed an interest in learning a martial arts and we had a neighbor that had a free month long trial membership at a local karate school. Classes are split into two different cirriculum on Monday/Tuesday and Wednesday/Thursday. We can attend any or all classes. Class size is running 20 students for two instructors (both less than 23 years old). Well month end is coming up and the kids seem to be liking it very much. So I asked the owner what the rates are and was shown a flyer for kids black belt for $5K which is estimated to take three years. Another flyer noted $895 for six months of instruction. This includes any adult class for the wife and myself. So am looking at a substantial amount of coin for both boys at $1790 six months. So what is the scoop... is this a good price? Local is northern Seattle. Thanks in advance. |
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Red flags:
1. Guaranteed black belt for a fee. This is a belt factory (AKA they will give you warm fuzzies by giving you fancy colored belts rather than giving you the same through actual accomplishment) 2. $895 for 6 months is kind of expensive. I'm assuming its on a sort of contract. My own experience is mainly in judo. It was $60/month with no contract, and there's only four different colored belts for the adults. It took me two years to advance one belt level. I have made vast improvements, and that's enough for me. Main incentive was competition, and it showed in the quality of students (fit, good body mechanics, etc). If I recall correctly, Seattle has a good selection of judo dojos, kyokushin karate dojos, and boxing gyms. Depends what you and your kids want. If you and them want a fluffy feel-good program, by all means attend most of the TKD/karate dojo belt factories. If you and them want to learn how to fight and get toughened up, find a traditional full/hard contact karate/boxing place or judo dojo. It tends to be cheaper as well... |
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These 5-12 year olds with black belts make me want to kill someone. You don't get a black belt that fast...it doesn't happen. Any place that will give a child a black belt in ANY martial art is fake, and should never be paid $5k for three years of "training". The man that trained me only charged the class what would be needed to run the place...he didn't even want profits. I trained in Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Kendo, Kempo, and Hapkido. The TKD I did for about eight years. I never got a black belt. |
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My 8YO daughter has been taking Karate for about two and a half years now. Tested for and earned her brown belt just this past Tuesday. Are there better schools out there? Yep, but my goal was not to turn my daughter into the next Chuck Norris as much as it was to help her learn discipline and dedication and give her an outlet that would keep her in shape for as long as she stays with it. My kid is skinny as a rail. A year ago she couldn't do a single pushup correctly. The other night she snapped out 10 that would make any DI proud. The self defense learning is a bonus. Her insructor is a young female (4* BB) that is simply awesome with kids. My daughter tried everything, dance, gymnastics, soccer, etc. Karate is the one thing that has stuck. We pay $70 a month for two nights a week plus testing fees. Anytime my daughter has wanted some extra one on one attention her instructor has provided it as long as we can get the kid there outside of normal class time. Each class has some time for sparring along with forms and new technique. There are enough assistants in the class so that there are never more than four or five kids per instructor. The kids get a lot of personal attention so that they get their techniques right.
J |
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Depends on the age of the kids and the number of classes per week.
$120/mo for kids over 8 or adults (2 class per week + 1 general session) $80/mo for kids under 8 (1 class per week + 1 general session) + $99 registration fee per person per year First 2 full price, 3rd 1/2 price, 4+ no monthly, only the registration fee (encourages whole family to train) There are discounts for multi-year, but the don't beat my time cost of money. |
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My daughter takes unlimited classes of Wushu, Taijitsu, and Karate for $120 a month.'
She also teaches beginner Wushu and subs on the cheerleader team which gets her a break. Many months we don't pay anything because of the work hours she has credited to her account.HTH |
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Quoted: These 5-12 year olds with black belts make me want to kill someone. You don't get a black belt that fast...it doesn't happen. Any place that will give a child a black belt in ANY martial art is fake, and should never be paid $5k for three years of "training". The man that trained me only charged the class what would be needed to run the place...he didn't even want profits. I trained in Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Kendo, Kempo, and Hapkido. The TKD I did for about eight years. I never got a black belt. Its the same at the place I go to. My sensei has even told me that he loses money by running it, lucky for him that he has another business that makes him money. As to the OP, that is way too expensive. As well as the guaranteed black belt, no way a kid can become a master in three years. I'd look for another place esp. with you living in a big city it shouldn't be any problem to find something better and cheaper. Check out YMCA's I used to go to ju-jitsu at my local YMCA for free. |
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Shasta69,
Good for you.Getting your kids involved, and that they like it. You need to keep them going at it. I'd stay with this school for now until you find something else that they will enjoy. The thing I say to try and stay away from is contractual memberships obligations month to month or 90 days works well since schedules change,injuries need to heal,boredom sets in. 1790 for 6 months seems high to me but the kids are comfortable. Maybe you can haggle him down? What style Karate does the school teach? Everybody bitches about scheduled belts ' when can Jr get his "Black Belt" yada yada. Unfortunately that's what the parents want something definitive. so that's what has been developed. And some schools have developed the "McDojo" attitude cause everyone's a master.( 23 year old are not masters) When I entered Karate "Shotokan" in 1968 Master used pain compliance to teach you proper form and technique. You learned very quickly after getting re-direct from a shanai swung by sensei lol.. That way of training is no longer found or would be tolerated today. Something to also consider would be judo for your boys even at their age now. I started Judo in 1965 from an Air Force Captain and moved over to Shotokan when he had to leave. That was an excellent blending of those two discipline.As I grew High School wrestling came to me,then American Ju-jitsu, then I took up FMA Filipino martial arts. So what I'm saying is always keep your options open,ensure your boys enjoy it,find a happy medium for your wallet. try and avoid contracts,never allow an automatic draft occur to your checking account. Start classes yourself. Peace Steel Talon |
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Thanks for the immediate feedback folks!
The Academy teaches a blend of Karate and Kung-Foo and has quite the following. One thing I do note, is a radio is constantly playing in the background at the school and Instructors are constantly having to repeat / scream to get the students attention. This Academy also offers an after school program which a bus picks up the students from school and takes them to the Academy, obviously for much more money. The area where we live has two other studios (one Taekwondo and another known as The Pit that advertises TAPOUT / ground fighting) and without doing a lot more traveling... we could be in a tough spot. Notice not a lot of comments of Taekwondo... any reason behind that? Thanks again folks, Sincerely, Shasta69 |
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Quoted:
Buy him a gun...Karate is a joke. If it gives my kid some sort of advantage whether it be that they don't expect her to fight, or that she can run further faster from the conditioning my money was well spent. She is 16 and shoots better than i did when I qualified expert marksman, if jumped she just may need to struggle to pull her gun so I don't think it's a joke. I also think that she is better prepared to take a beating and not give up, but keep fighting who knows what will happen under stress. |
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can I say RUN from karate and RUN to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu? I hope no offense to anyone. BJJ is my life and my kids do it with me. Karate Blackbelts come to my BJJ gym and get killed in about 2 minutes or less. I guess if "discipline" is something you watn them to learn, as in you cannot teach them discipline and you need someone else to do it, then Karate might be a good choice. One of my black belt instructors trained for 13 years to get his black belt. That's fucking discipline. getting it when you are 8 is not.
But if you want them to learn fighting skills, BJJ is good, muay thai/kickboxing are good, I think basic wrestling is also good, and even Judo would be great stand up skills to learn. the TKD and Karate guys - I am embarassed for them when they actually try to fight. Again, I will apologize in advance if this offends. 
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Been in the martial arts since 1982. Been teaching in one form or another since 1986.
Pricing: Pricing for classes, in many places may range from $50 / month to over $200 per month. Most metropolitan areas average $85-$140 per month. Generally speaking, BJJ, MT, MMA are the most expensive, but not always. Generally speaking, there are more class times offered with a higher priced location. Purpose: If a school is guaranteeing a black belt in 5 years or fewer, it means that the primary purpose of that school is not self defense, nor is it actual combat skills. They might say you can learn those things there, but the likely primary purpose is focus, discipline, and some martial arts ability. Generally, these are targeted towards children's classes. Schools that teach real martial arts skills are generally lax on discipline and focus. You simply cannot teach two opposing things at once. Is either focus wrong? No. It simply depends on what you want from the class. The problem comes in when you have combat-oriented arts claiming to teach discipline and focus, or focus-oriented schools claiming to teach combat-effective moves. Sure, each one might teach a little bit of the other. But there are reasons for specializing, and those that claim otherwise are being disingenuous at best. |
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My daughter is taking Isshin Ryu Karate for $45 a month. The place she is taking it only has one instructor, the owner (who is a co-worker of mine during the day). He has classes four times a week and the kids can go to as many as they like. We usually go to two nights a week. There are 10 kids on average in class each night. He starts the kids out without belts and it takes about two months to earn their white belt. The kids advance about one belt per year he said and he does not get gives black belts at all... when they are sixteen they can switch to the adult class, start over at white and work to black from there...
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I have my 8 year old in kempo/bjj. We pay $100/month (unlimited classes) on Long Island, which seems to be the going rate for all disciplines in the area.
Two thoughts: I think the Kempo/BJJ combo is awsome for kids to learn. The grappling and grounfighting they practice is great real-world- training. I'm not a big fan of guaranteed belt places, but I can understand having multiple (8 or 10) belt colors for kids karate. It keeps them motivated. Adults may be able to appreciate the big picture, but kids need that frequent recognition. My son loves going, is great at it, and if getting his plad belt with polka dots keeps him motivated, I'm all for it. Just my $0.02 |
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Thanks for the responses so far folks.
The type of MA is called Kempo. A jiu jitzu is also offered at the Academy for the adults. The wife and I will be looking around for other options as the kids are really into it... but it only has been two weeks since we started. Thanks again for all the reponses... it has been enlightening! |
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Quoted: Thanks for the responses so far folks. The type of MA is called Kempo. A jiu jitzu is also offered at the Academy for the adults. The wife and I will be looking around for other options as the kids are really into it... but it only has been two weeks since we started. Thanks again for all the reponses... it has been enlightening! Kempo is good stuff. I enjoyed it. Just get a proper school. |
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Quoted: Thanks for the immediate feedback folks! The Academy teaches a blend of Karate and Kung-Foo and has quite the following. One thing I do note, is a radio is constantly playing in the background at the school and Instructors are constantly having to repeat / scream to get the students attention. This Academy also offers an after school program which a bus picks up the students from school and takes them to the Academy, obviously for much more money. The area where we live has two other studios (one Taekwondo and another known as The Pit that advertises TAPOUT / ground fighting) and without doing a lot more traveling... we could be in a tough spot. Notice not a lot of comments of Taekwondo... any reason behind that? Thanks again folks, Sincerely, Shasta69 Tae Kwan Do was the big rage for a few years and a lot of McDojo's opened up teaching it. One joke was a first degree black belt gets on the plane in Seoul and a Master gets off the plane in the US. I see a LOT of schools where the highest rank you see teaching classes is a 1st or 2nd degree black belt, I'm a 2nd degree and am at the low end of the totem pole at my dojo, we've got people that have been training under the same Grandmaster for fifteen years or more. So as a 2nd degree black belt, I may be assisting another instructor with class, but it's usually a fourth degree or higher black belt teaching (of course, the Grandmaster teaches three days a week). The prices sound high, the instructor ranks sound low, and contracts to earn belts or long-term tuition are bad news. That said, if your kids are enjoying it, it might be worthwhile anyway. But I'd check all of the local schools, I'd also ask around, we have a Kung Fu instructor who uses our dojo during the winter months or when weather is bad, but otherwise teaches in a local park. Look at how the students interact with the instructors, the ones you describe do NOT sound like they have control of the class, and control is essential when you're teaching techniques that could result in permanent harm if executed improperly or at the wrong time, look at how many students stick around long-term, particularly after earning their black belt, is there a more senior instructor who trains/guides the class instructors, do they have any experience with other arts (we teach a combination of tae kwan do and hapkido, but most of our black belts have also crosstrained in at least one other art, I've also done jiujitsu and a limited amount of escrima)? |
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Quoted:
Thanks for the responses so far folks. The type of MA is called Kempo. A jiu jitzu is also offered at the Academy for the adults. The wife and I will be looking around for other options as the kids are really into it... but it only has been two weeks since we started. Thanks again for all the reponses... it has been enlightening! Kempo is a solid art..Kempo practitioners are historically tough fighters. The ones I'm most familiar with are the students of the late Ed Parker.. "Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate" plus your school offers Ju-Jitsu.. Your whole family should go
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Run from that place- as other said check out other places in the area first.
I used to go to a school- $200/month plus fees, uniforms, etc etc- and had to sign a one year contract. WOrse decision of my life. All of this for at most 5 classes per week I now take Krav Maga - a flat $85/month with no contract and its light years better then the belt mill school. |
| My son is in Taekwondo and that is about the same price for 6mths. It does go down to about 1200 if you sign for the year. There is no guarantee that you will obtain a black belt in a given time. He loves the classes and does wonders for his respect for others. |
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Taekwondo is all flash, no substance...... lots of cool high flying kicks and that sort...... looks cool, but in the real world, in a street fight where someone is trying to hurt you its just not gonna work.
I totally agree about not going to the "belt factory".......... a black belt is earned through years and years of discipline and training.... A black belt symbolizes an expert martial artist...... an expert fighter..... not someone who's parent paid for it,,,,,,,,,,,, make the kids earn it, they will be better for that.... If you "buy" the kid a black belt, he/she will be very proud of it and tell people, some of thoughs people will want to fight them...... if its a "bought" belt they will get hurt....... overconfidence is bad.... plus kids need to know that somethings take a lot of work.... don't make em jeff gordon. I have studied Isshinryu, Tang So Do, and krav Maga..... all styles that I'd recommend. I'm in LEO and have used them on the street, very successfully if I do say so....... I have a lot of confidence in myself but I also know my limits, and can use tactics and weapons as well. In martial arts, you want the worst ass kicking you ever take to happen in training..... where there is limits, and your not going to die...... On the street, if you are overconfident or improperly trained you could get seriously hurt!!!! |
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I wouldn't stick with the current place. As everyone has said, them selling blackbelts is a big red flag. I did a karate mix when I was young. I guess I take a little offense to the guys saying a 10-12 yr old isn't worthy of a black belt. By 11 when I got a black belt, I had been in karate consistently at least 2-3 days a week for 7 yrs. Early years mixed discipline with fun and learning the building blocks of skills and form. When I tested for my black belt, I tested with adults. Perhaps there was some different standards, but looking back I don't know what they were. |
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this is why I like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu - we actually fight each other every class. My opponant is doing his best to choke me out or lock my arm so that it woudl break if I didn't tap. it is full opposition, not "katas"
Quoted:
Taekwondo is all flash, no substance...... lots of cool high flying kicks and that sort...... looks cool, but in the real world, in a street fight where someone is trying to hurt you its just not gonna work. I totally agree about not going to the "belt factory".......... a black belt is earned through years and years of discipline and training.... A black belt symbolizes an expert martial artist...... an expert fighter..... not someone who's parent paid for it,,,,,,,,,,,, make the kids earn it, they will be better for that.... If you "buy" the kid a black belt, he/she will be very proud of it and tell people, some of thoughs people will want to fight them...... if its a "bought" belt they will get hurt....... overconfidence is bad.... plus kids need to know that somethings take a lot of work.... don't make em jeff gordon. I have studied Isshinryu, Tang So Do, and krav Maga..... all styles that I'd recommend. I'm in LEO and have used them on the street, very successfully if I do say so....... I have a lot of confidence in myself but I also know my limits, and can use tactics and weapons as well. In martial arts, you want the worst ass kicking you ever take to happen in training..... where there is limits, and your not going to die...... On the street, if you are overconfident or improperly trained you could get seriously hurt!!!! |
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Quoted: Taekwondo is all flash, no substance...... lots of cool high flying kicks and that sort...... looks cool, but in the real world, in a street fight where someone is trying to hurt you its just not gonna work. I totally agree about not going to the "belt factory".......... a black belt is earned through years and years of discipline and training.... A black belt symbolizes an expert martial artist...... an expert fighter..... not someone who's parent paid for it,,,,,,,,,,,, make the kids earn it, they will be better for that.... If you "buy" the kid a black belt, he/she will be very proud of it and tell people, some of thoughs people will want to fight them...... if its a "bought" belt they will get hurt....... overconfidence is bad.... plus kids need to know that somethings take a lot of work.... don't make em jeff gordon. I have studied Isshinryu, Tang So Do, and krav Maga..... all styles that I'd recommend. I'm in LEO and have used them on the street, very successfully if I do say so....... I have a lot of confidence in myself but I also know my limits, and can use tactics and weapons as well. In martial arts, you want the worst ass kicking you ever take to happen in training..... where there is limits, and your not going to die...... On the street, if you are overconfident or improperly trained you could get seriously hurt!!!! All depends on the instructor. My instructor advises AGAINST the high flashy kicks most of the time, unless someone just has phenomenal reflexes. And there isn't a whole lot of difference between TKD and Tang Soo Do, we had a Tang Soo Do Master teaching at our dojo until his shift with the county PD changed. But we don't believe TKD is the end-all/be-all of martial arts, it's part of the tool kit, we use Hapkido for self-defense drills, our Grandmaster was on the riot squad for a prison when he was in law enforcement. OP: Look at the focus of the school. If it's on competition, walk away. Competition encourages a lot of flashy moves and techniques and habits that are dangerous in real life. Whichever style or school you pick, you want one where there is an intense focus on self-defense skills and practical sparring (point sparring, as done in competition, is a joke, I've seen some serious gaming at competitions, or "hits" where the competitor was at full extension leaning away from his opponent, he couldn't have actually hurt someone with that punch if his life depended on it). |
| The rates you posted are beyond ridiculous, no way in hell would I pay that much for Karate training. I know Karate may seem appealing to someone who does not know much about martial arts, but have you ever thought about getting them into Judo or BJJ? Judo is usually very affordable since it is a well established Olympic sport. If you really want them to try out a “striking based” art, look around for a good Muay-Thai or Kick Boxing gym. |
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Quoted:
These 5-12 year olds with black belts make me want to kill someone. You don't get a black belt that fast...it doesn't happen. Any place that will give a child a black belt in ANY martial art is fake, and should never be paid $5k for three years of "training". The man that trained me only charged the class what would be needed to run the place...he didn't even want profits. I trained in Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Kendo, Kempo, and Hapkido. The TKD I did for about eight years. I never got a black belt. I agree whole heartedly with this. |