I would have to disagree.  I think it matters where you are talking about.  My wife teaches.  She and most if not all of her female colleagues here in south central Kansas are pretty darn conservative.  I grew up in north central Kansas and things were pretty much the same.  

As for the remarks about folks going into teaching because they are dumb as posts.....my wife had a 4.0 in college (organic chemistry, chem analysis, embryology, human anatomy, calculus etc).  She also had the MCAT scores and talent to go to medical school, but decided that teaching was her calling in life instead.  

I think it's pretty safe to say that those that agree with this statement:

[b]"Those who can, do; those who can't, teach"[/b]

probably wouldn't last 2 weeks in a high school class of any subject.


Add one more future teacher to that list of ar15.com teachers.

This is a very true statement.  The same is true for business classes.  When it comes to understanding money, how it's made, and how its spent, there is no room for BS.  Not to mention, the people teaching those types of course are usually pretty successful in their field of interest.

Sorry to say it's true. Read Thomas Sowell's book "Inside American Education":

[i]"In 1980-81, students majoring in education scored lower on both verbal and math SATs than students majoring in art, music, theater, behavioral sciences, physical sciences, biologicial sciences, business engineering, math, the humanities, or health occupations."[/i]

20years later, these are the "senior faculty" and administrators of most public schools.

Though it's certainly unfair to castigate all teachers, and in fact Dr. Sowell points out that those teachers of science had the highest scores of all education majors, it's true that Education Majors generally rank near the bottom of most University's SAT and GPA scores.

His book was originally published in 1993 and it exposes one of the continuing problems of American K-12 education - generally poor teachers, administrators and especially the Education Schools.

I can dig up original data to support even more if you like.

My sister in law was a big time liberal teacher, she is still a teacher, but she is no longer a liberal, took me seven years to convert her!

But I miss argueing[argue]with her [:D] .

Thank you for the citation.  I plan to get a copy of this and look over his source data.I'm interested to see from which colleges and universities he got his data.  If he is pushing some personal agenda through this book, then I will be doubly interested to see his sources.  By simply "cherry picking" the proper schools, it's possible to show statistics proving whatever you wish.  I'm not discounting the possibility he is factually correct, I simply want to see how he arrived at those conclusions.

But of course.

I expected nothing but a fair and rational analysis from you [b]Golgo-13[/b]. Anything less would have been unlike you.

Although I am not a teacher, I am an administrator in a public school district. We have a fairly diverse group of people here, some are liberals, some are conservative, and there are even a few libertarians here and there.

Out here, it seems the teachers are more conservative, but I would guess that there are almost as much liberal teachers.

As for administrators, I am probably the most conservative, and considered a bit "freaky" since I have a NRA window decal on truck. On the whole though, politics really never comes up in the administrative meetings or discussions.

My .02

Av.  

No.  I still disagree with the basic premise on which you were chiming in i.e. "most teachers are liberal."  Your point seems to have been "most teachers are liberal because (as indicated by this statistic) teachers are dumb."  Whether the statistics The_Macallan came to your rescue by providing prove to be valid for the population of teachers as a whole or not, there is no correlation between academic achievement and political beliefs demonstrated by those statistics nor implied in the citation supplied.  You might as well have claimed "most teachers are liberal because the Earth orbits an average distance of 93 million miles from the sun."

I haven't read most of the posts on this thread, but I was just checking quickly to see what was here and saw the topic.  Here's my two cents.

I teach at a University, and I would hazard a guess that I am one of the most conservative faculty on campus.

When I attended Penn State, I would have to say that at least 70% of my instructors were socialists, err I mean liberals.  It made me sick the entire time I was there.

When I graduated, I worked in private industry for five years.  Along came a joint project at the University for which I was subcontracted.  I apparently impressed the right people, for I was offered a full time position before the subcontract was even finished.  I have been teaching here for one year now, and I absolutely love it.  I have worked in the real world since I was eleven, and I love the fact that I can now pass on what I learned to my students.  To me this way is immeasurably better than some liberal hack who is book smart regurgitating what he read in college to his students.

BTW, politics regularly come up during my labs and I proudly discuss my position on the state of the State, including firearms, every time I have the opportunity.

One of the first posts in this thread has the old axiom, "Those who can, do - those who can't teach."  Although I would agree in a significant number of instances, in regard to me personally my reply is "fuck off".

Just my .02

BigGun

I'm an Engineer...but this Fall my life is going to change. I got accepted into a Credentialing Program for a Single Subject Credential in Mathematics.

A lot of secondary school teachers as well as primary school teachers are conservative. University Professors are a different matter..

University profs (including College of Education profs) - definite hard-left majority.

K-12 teachers - I have no personal experience or data to back me up on this, but I'd say it's more likely they [u]tend to[/u] reflect more of the mainstream-milquetoast-moderate political positions (which just seem liberal to us on the right).

Yep.

But that's not to say there is none. It just wasn't the point of the post.

GRRRRRRR!!!
That pisses me off!  Just like a flaming dumbass, dogmatic f*&king liberal to make such an asinine statement!  Where does she get the idea that the VC didn't torture our POWs?  Where indeed.  Does she think that John McCain et al got their injuries just from punching out of their planes?  [shock]  Come on!  Those little bastards really enjoyed putting it to the Americans.  (Look up psycho-syndromes...as in little-peepee envy types.)

And she was running for political office too!  Glad am I that she lost!  [beer]

My biggest problem is that this women is teaching what was my major in college...history...and doing it incorrectly.  [whacko]  What a load of crap!  Lying  about it for Christ's sake!  [shock]  I can forgive an honest mistake on the part of the prof...but not an outright LIE!  Stupid, biased bitch ought to be fired...but consider the odds of that happening any time soon.  The study and teaching of history should be a constant search for the truth about the human experience throughout time.  NOT some damn political agenda!!!  Man...that is depressing.   [puke]

Hey...what university is employing this prof?  I want to make sure I'm not sending my grandkids there someday.  I'll just bet others might be interested too.

From a retired Vietnam vet with 28 years service.

I like some of Thomas Sowell's editorals, but definately view them with a grain of salt.  Apparently, a child of his was misdiagnosed with a learning disability and he has made it one of his personal goals to go after the educational establishment.

I would be curious to see what the data says now.  I am sure that at some universities, education majors were at the bottom.  When I was in college (MSU in the late 80's), education majors were among the highest in terms of GPA and ACT.  The education program was in high demand and they were very choosy.  

Back to the original question, I would agree that education tends to attract people that are liberal to begin with.  I doubt that people are "converted" or "indoctrinated."

If you follow his columns closely (which I do) he has several "hot-button" topics including the demise of our National Educational System (regardless of his personal experience), skyrocketting housing costs due to rent-control & poor land management, and of course the standard liberal hypocrisy/double-standards.

He's certainly one of the more rational conservative writers out there.


The only problem now is the huge increase in [b]grade-inflation[/b] that has occurred, especially in the last 10 years throughout even the very best Universities.

Graduating with a 3.9 GPA is not quite as spectacular as what it used to be 20 years ago (or 40 years ago for that matter).

And don't even bring up the subject of dumbing-down the SAT! [puke]

All of you have entirely misinterpreted this quotation, leading me to believe that it is, in fact, 100% accurate.

The whole point is that it takes more effort to break new ground than it does to perpetually re-cover old topics.  While teaching is important, it is innovation that drives our society, and that is quite clear in the compensations that teachers get as compared to doctors, scientists, engineers, and so on.  People who push the boundaries of knowledge avoid teaching except to those who seek them out.  It's more like the mercantile system with apprentices and journeymen.  

Our country actually had higher literacy rates before public education became the norm.  People have a tremendous incentive to learn and seek out the learned who can teach them.  Right now, we have completely short-circuited the system--people who don't want to learn (actually, they've learned one thing--that they can do nothing and let the welfare state provide for them) are clogging the system.  Looking back to my school days, I recall getting very angry with certain classmates who were cutups or were disruptive.  Not because I was all law and order (I was a libertarian even back then) but because I knew that this was my only shot and I WANTED TO LEARN.  That's the difference.  People who want to learn will, people who don't want to learn, will make excuses about why it was impossible for them to accomplish anything.  They will end up being the ditch-diggers and cleaning ladies.  This is America--you aren't guaranteed anything.  You have to go out and make something of yourself.  This nation has a fine tradition of helping the underprivileged get a leg up.  You have to have determination though.  Almost everything I have learned about history, political science, economics, mathematics, machining, you name it, was not learned in a classroom.  The classroom gives you the basics, you have to get the rest yourself.

Public education is a joke--it is a system with inelastic demand.  No matter how much money a government pours into it, it will never be enough to meet the demand for "free" education.  If I was giving out free BMWs or free AR15s, how much of a budget would I need to ensure that I could meet all my demands?  60% of the NC state budget goes to education.  It's a complete departure from any kind of realistic, economic analysis of the problem.  Socialists all believe in the "magic" of collective, publicly-funded solutions.  They will tax us to 100% and drive the national economy into the ground before the admit they are wrong.  They never seem to realize that the capital has to come from someplace.

As far as why teachers are mostly liberals, I think that issue has been well covered in previous posts.  There is nothing wrong with being liberal, too many of you equate "liberal" with "socialist, conformist, sheep"

My observation from my years of education is that teachers through the high school years tend to cover the full gamut of political persuasion.  The political leanings of college teachers generally depends upon what college they teach in.  Schools of Business, Engineering, and Sciences will usually have a more conservative faculty than the College of Liberal Arts which is generally rife with liberals.

Another observation from my college years back in the late 60's and early seventies is the the education majors would bring up the rear on SAT scores and scholastic achievement.  Many were simply in school to avoid being drafted, and they knew nobody would flunk them out of the College of Education.

You, as one of the supporters of this thread's topic, are agreeing with the hypothesis that "most teachers are liberal."  So far you have offered nothing to support that other than an unrelated set of figures concerning academic achievement.  It is up to you to prove your hypothesis, it's not my responsibility to disprove it.

Ahhh... but you're missing a crucial point.

Teaching DOES break new ground - always.

Teachers break new ground in the minds of their students every day.

In their quest for a broader understanding of current knowledge, they discover new angles and approaches to familiar problems to help a wider population of students.

- at least in theory [;)]

Creativity in teaching is just as vital as creativity in scientific research.

There are plenty of stale teachers who are content to just rehash the same old material, just as there are plenty of stale researchers who are content to investigate-to-death one trivial trinket of nature after another.

Because of tenure, both are supported and protected by Academia.



Salaries are NOT based on importance!

They are simply supply and demand.

If salaries are based on importance, explain why  the average salary of baseball players is over $2,000,000 while the average salary of firefighters is about $30,000. [whacko]


Yep.

Double Yep!!

I think many of you are confusing "Politically Correct" with "Liberal."

It is true that education courses teach you to be politically correct.  I recall a certification exam that made me so angry I could hardly see straight.  The questions went something like this:

1.  When a young migrant Hispanic child enters your class in mid-semester should you...

a.  expect him/her to be reading at the proper grade level
b.  try to learn Spanish to make him/her comfortable
c.  spend a day introducing Hispanic terms to the other students
d.  Both b and c


2.  When speaking to a parent regarding the behavior of their child you should

a.  avoid accusing the parents of causing the problems
b.  avoid accusing the child of being a problem
c.  avoid blaming the other students for causing the problem
d.  explain to the parents how you will change your behavior to accomodate the student's unruliness

I consider myself above average in intellect.  I found the courses and the subsequent certification exams insulting.  However, if you planned to teach, you swallowed your opinions and circled the PC answer.

Look past the facade of politically correct and you will find conservative teachers everywhere.

To those that apologized for the broad characterizations of teachers as liberals, apology accepted.  

Lwilde,  you asked about chasing ghosts and how many students come back to thank me.  I have lost count of the total number of students who chose a career in either education or computer science based upon their experiences in my classroom.  


As an aside, I know of at least one very good reason to teach...vactions.  

May 10 - Sept 12 = Four months of Summer vacation (pay check stll comes in the mail)

December 10 - January 10 = One month Christmas vacation

March ? - March ? One week for Spring Break

All the government holidays, Thanksgiving, etc.

Every Friday is a vacation (no Friday classes here)

You tell me, how many other jobs give you FIVE and a half months of paid vacation and four day work weeks?

To make it even better I only work 6 hours on Wednesdays and 3 hours on Thursdays.

TheRedGoat

Yes....  There is such a difference between my professors who have always been in academia and those who were in the real world first.  One of my computer sci. profs worked in the industry for a decade or more before just recently starting to teach.  Frequently he'll say something like "This is what the books say and what I was taught as a student...but the reality is...."  It is very beneficial for us as students to hear about real experiences.

[b]Thread topic: Why are most teachers liberal?[/b]



The topic of the thread was phrased as a question.  You posted the above as a response to that question; or, is it a case of you just happened to remember reading that information somewhere and you decided to post it even though it had nothing to do with the topic of discussion?

Excuseth me kind sir, but although I agree with your statement that teaching is hard, I don't see the correlation with the political leanings of said teachers.  So I concur they are idealistic liberals doing a hard job.  Good for you!

I shall answer thy query in kind, dear Sir.  [;)]

My point about teaching being difficult was in reply the the 'gubmint trough feeder' post.  

I think that there are as many liberals as conservatives in education.  They are all taught to be politically correct in thier education courses in college.  I think most learn quickly to put aside thier own personal beliefs in order to conform to the wishes of their employers. (administrators, school boards, parents, colleagues, etc.)

Don't be a white crow among the black crows.  Fit in, conform, do your job and be quiet.

You learn real quick that you put aside your political beliefs in order to do the job.  I am certain other careers have the same requirement.

Many of the teachers that I met in public school were idiots that had no business in education.  Those incompetent, hate mongering, child berating, liberal fools give the rest of us a bad reputation.

TheRedGoat

I can see that you have started using the Ford dealership method!

[img]http://www.eatonlink.com/main/images/icon_smilep_jump.gif[/img]

as a rotc captain I have done this many many many times before. I have taught anything from basic marching movements to advanced map reading and orienteering techniques. most of the time the sai and the dai are no where to be found and that leaves you with 30 or 40 young (usually freshmen) cadets to deal with all by your lonesome (with the aid of a few other e-2 e-3 and maybe a 0-1 or 0-2). trust me there is nothing like teaching a bunch of arrogant ninth graders how to drill in either scorching hot or freezing cold weather. first aid is almost as fun and repelling and rope bridging are interesting too. but I have to admit I love it in a sadistic kinda way [}:D]. I don't know I might be interested in a career as a rotc teacher somtime after my military service.

Teaching is the only job a liberal can hold because the audience (kids) are not old enough to tell them to take their ideas and stuff it!
How many teachers do you know have a life outside of school? They're tired of not being able to get their points across to full-grown adults....so they can't wait to get back to school and take it out on their captive audience.

Wrong.  Dead wrong.  Unless you establish control on the first day of class, then you will be told, many times, to 'stuff it.'  Kids are not robots.  They have no qualms about speaking their mind.



All of them.

In the time that I have taught, I have NEVER met a teacher that did NOT have a life outside of school.  The fact is most people confuse the dedication to the profession with a lack of other interests.  

I never took my work home with me.  However, I have seen some very dedicated English teachers carrying tons of papers to/from their cars.  Dedication to the students for certain.  The kids wrote the papers, and the teacher spent the entire weekend grading, for no pay, gratis, overtime, comp time, etc.



Look, do me a favor.  Quit making broad generalization about a profession in which you are not employed.

I teach Computer Science courses.  What points, exactly, am I unable to make to adults outside of the classroom?  For an English teacher, what points are they unable to make to adults?  History? Science? Math?

Just what is it you think that 'adults' in the real-world are unable to accept?  

TheRedGoat

TheRedGoat

Gotta love ninth graders.  "Walking hormones with a penchant for laziness."  

TheRedGoat

Yes, do let's stay focused.  Since the question which started the thread was (again) "why are most teachers liberal?" why did you post information regarding levels of academic achievement by teachers?  Were you answering the question or not?  If you were not answering the question, then what exactly was your point?  

Kind of a sweeping statement don't ya think...Humm lets see in order to be a Engineer you have to go to school...So who is teaching the class???  I don't have a very high opinion of the teaching profession, BUT my wife happens to be a teacher.  She always had the desire to teach.  The money was not an issue to her, just the reward of teaching kids.  She graduated from a private 5 year university in 4 years with a double major, was top of her class, deans list every quarter, and a pretty smart gal in general.  There are tons of people who teach who suck, BUT there are a lot who teach who are great...As far as the whole GPA and SAT thing goes there are idiots everywhere doing EVERY job...
THEREDGOAT...hats off to ya for doing a great job...

Thank you, you are too kind.

I always consider myself to be one of the luckiest people on this planet.  I like teaching and the pay is fine by me.

Mosts people (including teachers) fail to calculate how WELL the profession is compensated.

When you consider a public school teacher will have 2-3 months of Summer vacation, all federal holidays, two weeks at Christmas and a week off for Spring Break the pay seems just fine.

By the time you begin working for a higher education institution the pay becomes even better and the vacations even longer!  Did you know that tenured, full professors, at major universities work less than 15 hours per week, for only 30 weeks per year? 80k+

450 hours of 'work' for $80,000.00

While teaching in public school, at a state minimum pay rate, I earned $180.00 per day.  Of that time I spent 4.5 hours in the classroom.  40 bucks per hour of 'work.'  Oh yeah, they paid for my insurance and retirement as well.

Since my job has always been something I enjoy, I fail to see why some people call it work.  Everyday is interesting and rewarding.

Let me just say, some people focus too much on what they earn.  Make a difference, enjoy life, get out of the rat race...teach!

TheRedGoat

TheRedGoat your comment is another reason I am angry about the state of education - part time work for full time pay.  Adds up to nearly $40 / hour.  Not bad for those graduating near the bottom of their class.  Add in best bennies and retiremnet on the planet.

For those graduating near the bottom of their class?  I think you might want to re-read the credentials posted by the educators on this thread.

I am amused that some feel that teachers aer in the classroom as a result of their inability to work 'in the real world.'

Do you feel the same about drill instructors?
Flight Instructors?

Tell a DI that he couldn't cut it in the 'real Marines' so he is teaching...

Tell an Air Force flight instructor that he couldn't fly the 'real planes' so he is teaching...

I think there is a misperception that teaching makes you less capable.  The opposite is true.  In order to teach you must be better than others in your field.  You must not only know the material, but also possess the ability to dissect the information, restate the details, and clarify technical issues to the learners.

As for your anger, you should direct it at the real issue.  Adminstrative pay.  Most adminstrators make 2-3 times the hourly rate of an instructor.  Fire 2 admins and hire 6 teachers.  

Afterall, without students we would have no teachers.  Without teachers we have no students.  Administration is a leech that sucks resources from the classroom.

TheRedGoat

They are liberal, because their darn Union tells them that conservitives are stupid.

In so many words.

Listen carefully...most teachers are NOT liberal.  Got it?

Most of us are 'Politically Correct' because the job requires us to be.  Do not confuse PC with liberal.

You are left with two choice:

1.  Speak your mind, run your mouth and look for a new job each year.

2.  Keep your cake hole shut and do the job without injecting your political/social/moral ideology into your state mandated curriculum.

As for the "Union tells them" comment,  I am not a member of a teacher's union.   However, in those states that allow/support a teacher's union, I would not find the characterization of "the union tells them" as innaccurate.

TheRedGoat

I think [b]Golgo[/b] is "stepping out" for a while [b]raf[/b].

The Union does not tell the teachers what party to vote for.

Teachers are supposed to TEACH not preach. As long as they stick to the state curriculum there are never any problems.

Av.

The RedGoat, in no particular order:

No argument that administrator pay vs. teacher's is way out of line as is the number of administrators.  (Just as $300 million CEO pay is obscene!)  Bigger the system, worse it gets.  I AM in favor of some changes there!  Further, good teachers often make poor administrators.  Top job should be person who has NEVER held a degree in education or a teaching certificate.

I am not ragging on CFIs, drill instructors etc.  Military instructors are most often selected for outstanding ABILITY.  I am directing my comments to elementary and high school teachers in this thread.

Credentials mean little.  Number of education courses mean far less.  A genius is not required although a firm grasp of the subject taught certainly is.  Some people are well suited and do an excellent job, some are not.  Even some who know their subject well do a poor job.  With continuing contracts, (tenure) it is nearly impossible to remove those who are incompetent!!!!!

Some school teachers are extremely capable individuals who make a difference IN SPITE OF the system.  Many are are not. I have no idea which group you fall into.  If the first, then I am sorry if I have offened you.

School teachers cry constantly about being underpaid.  Bullshit.  I am tired as hell of hearing that in light of the sad state of education and the part time nature of the job.  If they want more money, start by putting in 2080 hours on the clock like the rest of us.  (See earlier comments on administrative pay.)

Public education in America today is far from healthy.  The system has become an entrenched bureaucracy that is nearly immune to pressure for change from without.  The cost is very high, more money has not made significant improvement, calls for additional money are constant.  Quality of the product continues to decline.  Note that all of the responsibility for these problems IS CERTAINLY NOT the classroom teacher's!  PC severely detracts from the quality of education as well as public perception of that quality.  

Teacher resistance to standards and uniform testing is great and reflects poorly upon them.  Like some others they tend to defend the incompetent among their peers.  Grade inflation and grade scale variation between schools and states aggravates the situation.  An "A" should be the same % everywhere.  A passing grade should be set at same level as for licensing tests, normally 70%.  To do otherwise is no service to the student, only the school that wishes to skew results and hide poor performance.

Oh, that's right, teachers are underpaid. They have to try to teach a class of thirty ungrateful shits with parents who really don't care about what goes on during the day. The parents will bitch and moan that the teacher has it out for their kid, the teacher is incompetent, the teacher is OVERpaid, blah, blah, blah.

You think teachers have it easy? They have to deal with parents with pissy attitudes like yours. They have to deal the the kids of parents with pissy attitudes like yours. YOU stand in a class and teach 30 kids ANYTHING and I will eat my boot.

We get parents like you all the time: bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch. Volunteer for one day at an elementary school. You WILL go home tired. Now do it for a school year, making peanuts, and you will want to quit.

Av.

Sure easy to see who the teachers are here!