[ARCHIVED THREAD] - p250 (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/7/2011 5:15:05 AM EDT
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So whats with the hate for the p250's?
they seem like really good pistols, but their practically giving them away now. 
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I just got an email from AIM. The have NIB P250 9mm for $359.
I did a google and there appears to be a lot of reports of failures to fire at the rate of around 10%. The BATF rejected the pistol as being unreliable: BATF has rejected the Sig P250 as Unreliable in its new agent handgun evaluation –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– The ATF currently has a request for proposal ( RFP ) to switch to a new handgun for all of its agents. Sig Sauer submitted their new P250 pistol for this competition, but it was eliminated by the ATF from the competition after completion of the the first two stages of testing. Of the guns tested, only pistols from Glock and Smith & Wesson went forward to the stage 3 tests. Sig Sauer filed an appeal with the ATF about the Sig P250 being eliminated early from the testing. However, the ATF has now rejected their appeal, and only S&W and Glock are going to the final evaluation stage. In rejecting the Sig Sauer appeal, the ATF noted the following from their agent test results: "11 of the 20 test shooters experienced stoppages with Sig Sauer's handguns––in some cases, as many as 10 stoppages." The ATF simply found the Sig P250 to be too unreliable for the needs of their agency. If you want to read the full report denying Sig Sauer's appeal, you can do so here: http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm |
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Quoted: Same here...I don't know anything about them, but the price sparked my interestI just got an email from AIM. The have NIB P250 9mm for $359. I did a google and there appears to be a lot of reports of failures to fire at the rate of around 10%. http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1SigP250C9&name=SIG+Sauer+P250+Compact+9mm&groupid=3 I think more firearms manufacturers should make guns of the same "style" where the small sheet metal piece inside is the "firearm" in the eyes of the ATF...then we can bend our own "80% flats"!   |
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For me, the design s a solution in search of a problem.
I like the fact that it's an attempt at innovation but, I just don't think the concept is a better design than the current runs of guns with interchangable backstraps\frontstraps. I'm a contractor for a federal LEO agency which issues them and the general concensus in the offices I've visited have been the same as my thoughts. They currently carry the p226 and p229 and NOBODY I've spoken to thinks the 250 is a better gun either ergonomically or in reliabilty. |
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So whats with the hate for the p250's? they seem like really good pistols, but their practically giving them away now. They are practically giving them away because they have been a dismal failure. Cases in point: 1. The USFAMS is the only LE agency in the United States to have adopted the P250. The weapons were recalled from service after a short period of time because of an unprecedented rate of problems, malfunctions, and breakages. All of the USFAMS weapons now sit in a warehouse where they are collecting dust. Rumors are out there that the FAMS may even pursue legal action against Sig for fraud in regards to the P250 contract. 2. The BATFE recently underwent a very intensive process to select a new handgun. The P250 was submitted for testing on that contract where it proceeded to flame out in spectacular fashion. As the testing was ongoing I heard from multiple sources reports that scarcely seemed believable, but that ultimately proved to be 100% on the money. A small sampling of just how bad the P250 is can be seen in the GAO response to Sig's protest about being thrown out of the trials. I re-emphasize that the GAO report is only PART of the story, and that it's even uglier than that report makes it out to be. http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm 3. Sig has been trying to sell the P250 for years, first in Europe and now in the U.S...and without much success. That's why you are seeing them cheap...because nobody wants the fucking things. The P250 is DOA in regards to winning any major contracts in the United States. Even the striker-fired P250 that is supposedly under development probably won't do very well because of the P250's horrid performance until now and Sig's overall issues. The P250 is certifiably a piece of shit. On top of the P250, Sig has been suffering from a lot of problems largely related to the fact that the current management team is a bunch of assclowns of epic proportions who seem intent on running the company into the ground. In the near future another federal agency is reportedly going to drop their association with Sig and go shopping for a new handgun due to issues they've encountered with Sig. |
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So whats with the hate for the p250's? they seem like really good pistols, but their practically giving them away now. They are practically giving them away because they have been a dismal failure. Cases in point: 1. The USFAMS is the only LE agency in the United States to have adopted the P250. The weapons were recalled from service after a short period of time because of an unprecedented rate of problems, malfunctions, and breakages. All of the USFAMS weapons now sit in a warehouse where they are collecting dust. Rumors are out there that the FAMS may even pursue legal action against Sig for fraud in regards to the P250 contract. In the defense of Sig and the failed FAM adoption they really are trying very, very hard to "make it right." I just don't think the pistol was designed as a duty gun and certanly not for the volume of fire the FAMs are required to put it through each year. |
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So whats with the hate for the p250's? they seem like really good pistols, but their practically giving them away now. They are practically giving them away because they have been a dismal failure. Cases in point: 1. The USFAMS is the only LE agency in the United States to have adopted the P250. The weapons were recalled from service after a short period of time because of an unprecedented rate of problems, malfunctions, and breakages. All of the USFAMS weapons now sit in a warehouse where they are collecting dust. Rumors are out there that the FAMS may even pursue legal action against Sig for fraud in regards to the P250 contract. 2. The BATFE recently underwent a very intensive process to select a new handgun. The P250 was submitted for testing on that contract where it proceeded to flame out in spectacular fashion. As the testing was ongoing I heard from multiple sources reports that scarcely seemed believable, but that ultimately proved to be 100% on the money. A small sampling of just how bad the P250 is can be seen in the GAO response to Sig's protest about being thrown out of the trials. I re-emphasize that the GAO report is only PART of the story, and that it's even uglier than that report makes it out to be. http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm 3. Sig has been trying to sell the P250 for years, first in Europe and now in the U.S...and without much success. That's why you are seeing them cheap...because nobody wants the fucking things. The P250 is DOA in regards to winning any major contracts in the United States. Even the striker-fired P250 that is supposedly under development probably won't do very well because of the P250's horrid performance until now and Sig's overall issues. On top of the P250, Sig has been suffering from a lot of problems largely related to the fact that the current management team is a bunch of assclowns of epic proportions who seem intent on running the company into the ground. In the near future another federal agency is reportedly going to drop their association with Sig and go shopping for a new handgun due to issues they've encountered with Sig. Damn, how long you been sitting on all that? Information. Your post does not lack it. 
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In the defense of Sig and the failed FAM adoption they really are trying very, very hard to "make it right." I heard that they did give the FAMS weapons people some re-worked P250's....but the reception those weapons got was, from what I understand, ice cold. I think it's safe to say that the P250 is over for the FAMS. Even if they fixed it...imagine the difficulty of trying to re-issue a weapon you had to completely take out of the field because it was so awful. |
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Damn, how long you been sitting on all that? Information. Your post does not lack it.
I haven't been. 
I've been very vocal about the P250's issues ever since I started finding out about them. The problem is that a certain percentage of people read a post like that and then allege that I'm full of shit. When I warned of P250 problems a lot of people said I was making shit up. Eventually a man gets tired of being called a liar for trying to steer people away from a weapon that was, at the time, pissing lots of people off and generally showing itself to be a complete failure. |
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I'll go against the grain here. I read the bad press and opinions and bought the P250 compact in 9mm anyhow. About 1000 down the pipe now, various ammo brands, and it has run flawless. Not one single malfunction of any kind whatsoever. I trust it. Yes, the trigger is long, but I got used to it. The night sights rock. I have the medium frame and it fits my hand perfect. Nice looking IMO also. I carry it in Galco leather and it pretty much dissapears under my t shirt. Haters gonna hate. Regardless of make or model, I keep the ones that work and dump the ones that don't. YMMV |
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In the defense of Sig and the failed FAM adoption they really are trying very, very hard to "make it right." I heard that they did give the FAMS weapons people some re-worked P250's....but the reception those weapons got was, from what I understand, ice cold. I think it's safe to say that the P250 is over for the FAMS. Even if they fixed it...imagine the difficulty of trying to re-issue a weapon you had to completely take out of the field because it was so awful. I don't have to imagine it, I can actually see it. Your points and observances are spot on. None of the FAM agents want the 250 because it was such a nightmare in the pilot phase. I mean, really, who the fuck buys all the guns you're going to issue and THEN has a "pilot phase." One of the stupidest things I've seen n a while. The problem is only compunded by the 226 and 229 servicability. These guys are used to carrying a gun that runs a whole bunch of rounds a year and it Just. Doesn't. Fail. Now they want them to "re-adopt" a platform the Just. Didn't. Perform. Meh, you're right. Currently they have a warehouse full of guns and a huge taxpayer bill they don't intend to eat. |
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Quoted: I wish I had seen this thread 2 weeks ago, a buddy of mine just bought one.  Has he shot it? It might be fine. Remember, on the internet you will generally see the complainers who got a bad gun of any brand. Anyone with a good gun is out shooting it having fun, not badmouthing it on the web. Biggest piece of shit I ever owned was a S&W 4506. It has a great reputation and it wasn't cheap. |
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Remember, on the internet you will generally see the complainers who got a bad gun of any brand. There's a wee bit of difference between a guy who bought a particular sample made on Friday at 4:30 and the experience of two federal agencies, one who tested the guns and found them to suck and the other who bought over a million dollars worth of them, issued them, and found them to suck. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Remember, on the internet you will generally see the complainers who got a bad gun of any brand. There's a wee bit of difference between a guy who bought a particular sample made on Friday at 4:30 and the experience of two federal agencies, one who tested the guns and found them to suck and the other who bought over a million dollars worth of them, issued them, and found them to suck. I'm not in a Federal agency. Seriously though, my gun runs flawlessly, looks good, feels good, has acceptable accuracy and is easy to carry. Should I dump it because the ATF doesn't wanna buy it? Or because somebody on the internet doesn't like it? I can honestly say that my P250 and my CZ75BD are the ONLY 2 autos I've owned that have never failed to go bang. And I say that after a respectable number of autos owned and shot. Now off to look if P250 mag prices have dropped also.
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So when did Sig start circling the bowl? To me, they were at their apex in the late 80s/early 90s with the 226 and 228. The last of the great steel frame 9mm service pistols....... After 2005 when they got new management in that was intent on making Sig more profitable. Sig experienced a couple of years of record profitability while apparently completely trashing the reputation they spent decades building. |
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Seriously though, my gun runs flawlessly, looks good, feels good, has acceptable accuracy and is easy to carry. See, that's the thing: Lots of guns are "flawless" until they are not. If you don't shoot the gun much then you might never experience a problem. I fired over 20,000 rounds of 9mm in the last 12 months...close to 25,000 in 2010...and that's not many rounds compared to lots of other folks. If 1,000 rounds is "a lot" to you and it's taken you a long time to hit that number, you simply aren't shooting the weapon enough to find the limits of its capability or reliability. Should I dump it because the ATF doesn't wanna buy it? Or because somebody on the internet doesn't like it? ...when the ATF rejects it because Sig said, and I quote, that the BATFE put too high an emphasis on reliability, and when the "somebody on the internet" is the USFAMS who have found that the weapons failed them then it might be a good idea to take a look at whether or not you want to depend on that weapon to save your bacon. |
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Quoted: I'll go against the grain here. I read the bad press and opinions and bought the P250 compact in 9mm anyhow. About 1000 down the pipe now, various ammo brands, and it has run flawless. Not one single malfunction of any kind whatsoever. I trust it. Yes, the trigger is long, but I got used to it. The night sights rock. I have the medium frame and it fits my hand perfect. Nice looking IMO also. I carry it in Galco leather and it pretty much dissapears under my t shirt. Haters gonna hate. Regardless of make or model, I keep the ones that work and dump the ones that don't. YMMV This pretty much sums up what I was going to say. I've had mine for 3 years. I like the idea of the gun more than anything. But it's not that bad of a gun. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Seriously though, my gun runs flawlessly, looks good, feels good, has acceptable accuracy and is easy to carry. See, that's the thing: Lots of guns are "flawless" until they are not. If you don't shoot the gun much then you might never experience a problem. I fired over 20,000 rounds of 9mm in the last 12 months...close to 25,000 in 2010...and that's not many rounds compared to lots of other folks. If 1,000 rounds is "a lot" to you and it's taken you a long time to hit that number, you simply aren't shooting the weapon enough to find the limits of its capability or reliability. Should I dump it because the ATF doesn't wanna buy it? Or because somebody on the internet doesn't like it? ...when the ATF rejects it because Sig said, and I quote, that the BATFE put too high an emphasis on reliability, and when the "somebody on the internet" is the USFAMS who have found that the weapons failed them then it might be a good idea to take a look at whether or not you want to depend on that weapon to save your bacon. 1000 rounds is my trust point in a pistol number. If I run 1000 rounds of various ammo brands and bullet types thru a pistol with no problem whatsoever, I have no reason to believe it will malfunction at 1001. Shoot anything enough and odds are it won't go bang at some point. Ammo can't be trusted 100%. Nor can anything mechanical. My P250 is a keeper. I'm guessing you have no experience with one or you may feel differently. |
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So when did Sig start circling the bowl? To me, they were at their peak in the late 80s/early 90s with the 226 and 228. The last of the great steel frame 9mm service pistols....... Since Ron Cohen (ex-Kimber exec) took over. QC has taken a hit across the board. |
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I'm guessing you have no experience with one or you may feel differently. 
I have experience with them. I've shot them. I've also watched them shit the bed in front of my own eyes. I know several others who have watched them shit the bed in front of their eyes. Add on top of my experience the experience of others who have experience with thousands of them and it gets to be pretty hard to argue that we've got the wrong read on them. Yours works...so far...great. If you're happy with it then keep shooting it and hope that yours isn't subject to any of the issues that is causing a federal agency to pursue legal action against Sig for fraud. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I'm guessing you have no experience with one or you may feel differently. I have experience with them. I've shot them. I've also watched them shit the bed in front of my own eyes. I know several others who have watched them shit the bed in front of their eyes. Add on top of my experience the experience of others who have experience with thousands of them and it gets to be pretty hard to argue that we've got the wrong read on them. Yours works...so far...great. If you're happy with it then keep shooting it and hope that yours isn't subject to any of the issues that is causing a federal agency to pursue legal action against Sig for fraud. How blessed I was to get the only good one out of thousands of them. This makes my day!  |
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I'm guessing you have no experience with one or you may feel differently.
I have experience with them. I've shot them. I've also watched them shit the bed in front of my own eyes. I know several others who have watched them shit the bed in front of their eyes. Add on top of my experience the experience of others who have experience with thousands of them and it gets to be pretty hard to argue that we've got the wrong read on them. I think many people here are overlooking the experience the FAMs were treated to. The FAMs took a LARGE sample of guns and ran their usual course of fire through them for several months at a multitude of locations (important because it rules out the heat/cold/humidity/aridity) and then, after a VERY short pilot cycle, pulled the guns and said "Fuck that, those thngs are a piece of shit." They spent almost 2 years to get a contract and a process together to replace every firearm they had issued. They turned on their heels and felt it was worth scrapping ALL of that money and work because the guns just couldn't perform. The FAMs shoot A LOT of rounds every quarter to qualify. The p250 just couldn't keep up. t's a neat little niche gun for your average enthusiast. It's not a duty weapon and I, personally, wouldn't trust my life to one after seeing the trials at the FAM offices. |
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Quoted: Quoted: How blessed I was to get the only good one out of thousands of them. No one fucking said that. Yours hasn't broken. Stop fucking up this thread! So agree that my pistol that I have zero problems with is a piece of shit or I'm fucking up this thread? Do you have any experience with the 250? Can you add something constructive here? The COC prevents me from replying further. Have a nice day. |
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I'm guessing you have no experience with one or you may feel differently.
I have experience with them. I've shot them. I've also watched them shit the bed in front of my own eyes. I know several others who have watched them shit the bed in front of their eyes. Add on top of my experience the experience of others who have experience with thousands of them and it gets to be pretty hard to argue that we've got the wrong read on them. Yours works...so far...great. If you're happy with it then keep shooting it and hope that yours isn't subject to any of the issues that is causing a federal agency to pursue legal action against Sig for fraud. How blessed I was to get the only good one out of thousands of them. This makes my day!
You're right; the earth is flat. You can't be this obtuse. I'm thrilled you got a good one, but they suck overall. You can have your own opinions but not your own facts. |
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How blessed I was to get the only good one out of thousands of them. No one fucking said that. Yours hasn't broken. Stop fucking up this thread! So agree that my pistol that I have zero problems with is a piece of shit or I'm fucking up this thread? Do you have any experience with the 250? Can you add something constructive here? The COC prevents me from replying further. Have a nice day.
I have a bunch of experience with a bunch of p250s. The fact that yours works flawlessly for your purposes doesn't make it a good service gun. The p250 has been proven by two large federal LE agencies to be a "piece of shit not worth fielding." If you like yours with the long DA trigger pull and the documented design and function flaws then I would say "more power to you." |
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So whats with the hate for the p250's? they seem like really good pistols, but their practically giving them away now. They are practically giving them away because they have been a dismal failure. Cases in point: 1. The USFAMS is the only LE agency in the United States to have adopted the P250. The weapons were recalled from service after a short period of time because of an unprecedented rate of problems, malfunctions, and breakages. All of the USFAMS weapons now sit in a warehouse where they are collecting dust. Rumors are out there that the FAMS may even pursue legal action against Sig for fraud in regards to the P250 contract. In the defense of Sig and the failed FAM adoption they really are trying very, very hard to "make it right." I just don't think the pistol was designed as a duty gun and certanly not for the volume of fire the FAMs are required to put it through each year. Then what was it made for? Was it made not to be carried? Was it made to not be fired? I held one at a range and dry fired it. The trigger was way too long and it felt cheap and this is coming from a Glock and HK owner. So I am used to polymer frames. I could grab the gun tight and see the frame bend. It it a piece of crap. Sig used to be a good company. The P250 has not helped them, just made them look worse IMO. |
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Quoted: Quoted: If it is just a range gun, and you can buy it cheap why not? So it jams 1/1000 rounds instead of 1/5000 rounds. At the range this is not a show stopper. Can I ask where you got those numbers, because that isn't the same failure rate I saw. Nor I experienced. I was provided with a pre-production gun. I shot 200 rounds and gave it back to the rep with a resounding "no thanks". I thought for sure they'd fix it before it went into production. Apparently I was wrong. S&W provided me a pre-production M&P and later the M&P 45 w/external safety. I provided feedback and every thing I suggested they did except delete the stupid lock. Sig's arrogance is something to behold. |
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So whats with the hate for the p250's? they seem like really good pistols, but their practically giving them away now. They are practically giving them away because they have been a dismal failure. Cases in point: 1. The USFAMS is the only LE agency in the United States to have adopted the P250. The weapons were recalled from service after a short period of time because of an unprecedented rate of problems, malfunctions, and breakages. All of the USFAMS weapons now sit in a warehouse where they are collecting dust. Rumors are out there that the FAMS may even pursue legal action against Sig for fraud in regards to the P250 contract. In the defense of Sig and the failed FAM adoption they really are trying very, very hard to "make it right." I just don't think the pistol was designed as a duty gun and certanly not for the volume of fire the FAMs are required to put it through each year. Then what was it made for? Was it made not to be carried? Was it made to not be fired? I held one at a range and dry fired it. The trigger was way too long and it felt cheap and this is coming from a Glock and HK owner. So I am used to polymer frames. I could grab the gun tight and see the frame bend. It it a piece of crap. Sig used to be a good company. The P250 has not helped them, just made them look worse IMO. Like I said, I think it was a sloution in search of a problem. It's a crap gun on a crap platform with some crap design "upgrades" that make it unreliable. I have glocks, HKs as well, I'd take either in a heartbeat over the 250. It's also important that I point out that Sig is a fine weapon, in every other platform. This, very specific design, is a fistfull of fail. |
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Quoted: I've had 2 Taurus revolvers. Still have one. They are great for the money. Miss the one I sold.Quoted: Haters gonna hate. So we've gotten to the point where exposing a crap product is "hating"? Welcome to the ranks of Taurus, Kel-Tec, Hi Point and XD owners. Man, it's cranky in here this morning. I'll never disagree with a moderator again, I promise.  |
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Quoted: If it is just a range gun, and you can buy it cheap why not? So it jams 1/1000 rounds instead of 1/5000 rounds. At the range this is not a show stopper. depends on what type of shooting you do at the range. Single, slow, fire? Sure, you can probably get use to the trigger Running anything on a timer? Checking split times? Working on shooting from a holster? IMHO, sux with this pistol. My shooting partner has one and the length of trigger pull can not be understated. He's practiced with it extensively and runs it very well. That said, he finally switched to a simple G19 and saw almost immediate improvements in second shot accuracy, split times, time from holster to breaking his first shot, etc. Can't speak for him, but when I'm played around with his P250 the length of pull and ridiculous trigger reset caused me to run slower or induced more movement and had me pulling shots ETA: I should add that my buddy's P250 has been flawless in reliability, but even he agrees he would not purchase one again due to the trigger |
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I've had 2 Taurus revolvers. Still have one. They are great for the money. Miss the one I sold.
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Haters gonna hate. So we've gotten to the point where exposing a crap product is "hating"? Welcome to the ranks of Taurus, Kel-Tec, Hi Point and XD owners. Man, it's cranky in here this morning. I'll never disagree with a moderator again, I promise.
I really don't understand your motive but, I think your sigline is a good indicator of your continued participance. |
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I've had 2 Taurus revolvers. Still have one. They are great for the money. Miss the one I sold.
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Haters gonna hate. So we've gotten to the point where exposing a crap product is "hating"? Welcome to the ranks of Taurus, Kel-Tec, Hi Point and XD owners. Man, it's cranky in here this morning. I'll never disagree with a moderator again, I promise.
I really don't understand your motive but, I think your sigline is a good indicator of your continued participance. 
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Quoted: Quoted: I've had 2 Taurus revolvers. Still have one. They are great for the money. Miss the one I sold.Quoted: Haters gonna hate. So we've gotten to the point where exposing a crap product is "hating"? Welcome to the ranks of Taurus, Kel-Tec, Hi Point and XD owners. Man, it's cranky in here this morning. I'll never disagree with a moderator again, I promise. I've disagreed with the same moderator before, and it had a dramatically different outcome. Maybe it's not him. Maybe it's you.  |