[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Predator Carbs (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/1/2011 8:50:42 PM EDT
| I've got an 84 Ford 460. I'm presently running the stock 4180 Holley with vaccum advance dizzy. The truck is having issues with backfiring and missing at high rpm. I know that I need to either rebuild the Holley which requires removing the tamperproof plugs. I came across Predator Carbs today, from what I read they are extremely easy to work on and work for almost every type of use. Just curious as to what everyone thinks about them? I can get one and a rebuilt kit for roughly $200 found one in the local craigslist. I can get a new Holley truck avenger for like $250-$300 or rebuild mine for like $100 but I don't really like fact I have to remove stuff to even adjust this sucker so this carb isn't on my favorite list right now. |
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I will put a buck on it that it is not your carb giving you grief. Take a good look at your dizzy shaft i bet you it has worn bushing letting the shaft wobble in the housing, Been there done that lost that bet with a carburator Guru he took my carb rebuilt it then i put it back on did the same thing he went through it again there was nothing wrong with my carb in the first place so in the end He was Right it was the Dizzzy Put a new one in ruck ran great.
Jaime |
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I'd go with the truck avenger. You can get parts and pieces at any decent parts store if needed, and my 2 yr old could tune it if i showed him how to use a vacuum gauge. Yeah I was going with the pred because of the supposed ease of tuning. Although my stock 4180 emissions carb is good from what I've heard I hate the fact I have to remove the plugs to tune it but I suppose I may go that direction. |
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I will put a buck on it that it is not your carb giving you grief. Take a good look at your dizzy shaft i bet you it has worn bushing letting the shaft wobble in the housing, Been there done that lost that bet with a carburator Guru he took my carb rebuilt it then i put it back on did the same thing he went through it again there was nothing wrong with my carb in the first place so in the end He was Right it was the Dizzzy Put a new one in ruck ran great. Jaime Really? I may go ahead and do that. I am presently running a Ds2 ford system so I will give that a shot. |
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the plugs will just let you adjust the idle mixture scews so you wont gain much on the tuning Then how would I go about getting it to idle down from being so high? The truck has dieseling on shutdown, a backfire on shut down unless I keep it in gear and let the clutch out a little bit, and missing/backfiring when I floor it. I have changed the coolant, oil and filter, air filter, heater hose. I've cleaned the carb real good with cleaner ran 1.5 cans of seafoam through the brake booster hose as well as the tank. I haven't checked the timing but figure its the likely culprit outside of the carb. |
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Sounds justlike the same symptoms my ford had when i had a worn out dizzy. have you checked for a vacume leak at the base of the carb? Have you checked the plugs and wires, timing Near as I can tell I have no vaccum leaks anywhere, although I am going to replace my vaccumn lines and see if my pcv and egr are working. I figure the dizzy needs replaced in a regular tune up, what would you reccomend? |
| I was making a parts order list from RockAuto tonight, I was going to buy a set of autolite wires for like 16.55 and I noticed one from another company included a rotor and cap is that all I need for making my distributor in better shape? Thus far I have changes all the plugs, oil and filter, anti freeze, heater hose, air filter. I figure out side of the dizzy, getting the timing set and a new carb there is nothing that can be causing this issue. Atleast that is my plan to rectify it. How hard is it to rebuild a Holley 4180? I've never done it but figure a hands on project would be fun. GIves me something fun to do while at school. |
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As a 43 year-old car guy, I can tell you that I've never seen a Predator carb on a street car. Ever.
They may be awesome... but I think if they were, I'd have heard about it. If you're looking at just a beater truck, look at something with fuel -injection. You sound like you don't like to mess with stuff too much––fuel-injection is the way to go. If you're going to have a Holley carb––and they work great––you're going to have to learn to tune it, or suffer frequent headaches. They're great carbs, but they like their tune. |
Those Predators are akin to the flying toilet bowls of drag racing yesteryear (two circuits, idle and flush  ). Basically they're easy to work on because they have the most basic of metering systems, basic is good for simplicity but bad for performance when it comes to air/fuel metering. If you want simple that will run well get an Edelbrock or Carter carb. |
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As a 43 year-old car guy, I can tell you that I've never seen a Predator carb on a street car. Ever. They may be awesome... but I think if they were, I'd have heard about it. If you're looking at just a beater truck, look at something with fuel -injection. You sound like you don't like to mess with stuff too much––fuel-injection is the way to go. If you're going to have a Holley carb––and they work great––you're going to have to learn to tune it, or suffer frequent headaches. They're great carbs, but they like their tune. Yeah I bought this pickup with the idea that I could do everything myself. I wanna learn but figure why not go the easiest route possible. I am thinking about either buying a rebuild kit because I think I may have a blown powervalve or simply buy a new one and bolt it on. |
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Those Predators are akin to the flying toilet bowls of drag racing yesteryear (two circuits, idle and flush ). Basically they're easy to work on because they have the most basic of metering systems, basic is good for simplicity but bad for performance when it comes to air/fuel metering. If you want simple that will run well get an Edelbrock or Carter carb. Hahah i have a bid right now in on ebay. $31 dollars +$25 shipping lol I hope I get outbid. If I throw on an edelbrock how do I go about getting my vaccumn as edelbrock in manifold vaccumn instead of carb vaccumn as Hollies are. |
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Well sounds like you have the bases covered for parts. As for rebuilding a carb Are you sure it needs it ????
Are you guessing it needs it are you fixing what is not broken??? A holly is a pretty easy one to re build some gaskets and a power valve and a good cleaning and put it back together with all the parts new fuel filter and you will hopefully be close to right not a carb expert here. Check that sizzy shaft and make sure it is not worn out bushing causing the whole problem???? |
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Well sounds like you have the bases covered for parts. As for rebuilding a carb Are you sure it needs it ???? Are you guessing it needs it are you fixing what is not broken??? A holly is a pretty easy one to re build some gaskets and a power valve and a good cleaning and put it back together with all the parts new fuel filter and you will hopefully be close to right not a carb expert here. Check that sizzy shaft and make sure it is not worn out bushing causing the whole problem???? Yeah I am just kind of guessing as far as the rebuild figuring it hasn't been done recently, if ever. Yeah I didn't get a chance to check out the dizzy yet. I am back at college for a few weeks and when I go home was hoping to have a bunch of parts that I could swap in but I need to know what to order. Do I just pull the dizzy cap and then what would I look for? Also I'm thinking of buying a timing light, anything else I need to get this sucker timed up and ready to rock? With changing the timing chain to straight up can I do that with the engine and radiator in the pickup or do I have to remove it? |
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Quoted: As a 43 year-old car guy, I can tell you that I've never seen a Predator carb on a street car. Ever. They may be awesome... but I think if they were, I'd have heard about it. LOL they were the coolest shit when I played with cars in HS but yeah no one had them +1 to rebuild your holley or go with one of the Edelbrock carter clones |
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Quoted: Quoted: The Carter/Edelbrocks have nipples for both manifold and ported vacuum so won't be a problem (right next to the PCV ported is on the left) Great, would it be beneficial to keep EGR and PCV? I would tell the EGR to fuck off if it's problematic but keep the PCV if it's a stock engine. |
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The Carter/Edelbrocks have nipples for both manifold and ported vacuum so won't be a problem (right next to the PCV ported is on the left) Great, would it be beneficial to keep EGR and PCV? I would tell the EGR to fuck off if it's problematic but keep the PCV if it's a stock engine. Yeah its stock but it will have a hopped up cam, perhaps different carb, and double roller t chain with straight up timing and 3 inch exhaust out the back.From what I understand they sit on a special EGR manifold so I would have to get a different one without the egr provision correct? |
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I'm a big fan of Edlebrock carbs myself, been using them for many years and they tend to not have the crappy performance and tuning issues that Hally carbs have always given me (YMMV). If you are looking for a stock replacement type carb you might see if edlebrock has an option for you. Sorry I don't have any input on Predator carbs, never used one. eta: I see some folks mentioning distributor checks, you should do that as well. |
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As others have said, check the distributor and the timing before replacing/rebuilding the carb. Fuel filter is a good spot to look too. Any of those can cause backfiring and are all easier and cheaper fixes than the carb job. Yeah I checked both inline fuel filters. It has 2 in tank pumps, 1 in each tank, and then it has one inline post tank, and then it has one in the carb. They both were good, I'm getting gas, but the next thing is the distributor as I have heard that is a common issue, as well as plugs, and then perhaps look into the carb. Has anyone ever used one of those clean deals you screw into your block and they are supposedly for tuning your carb? |
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Quoted: The main thing to watch for is that it will probably affect your distributor advance. If you get any detonation after removing the EGR crap you will need to put stronger springs or a different advance limiter in the dizzy. Basically you might have to re-curve it. Quoted: Can just block off the EGR port on the manifold with a piece of metal and some gasket material if you want to do it on the cheap. Will egr removal do anything bad to my engine? Also make sure you have all your vacuum ports plugged. |
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As a 43 year-old car guy, I can tell you that I've never seen a Predator carb on a street car. Ever. They may be awesome... but I think if they were, I'd have heard about it. LOL they were the coolest shit when I played with cars in HS but yeah no one had them +1 to rebuild your holley or go with one of the Edelbrock carter clones LOL, I came here to post that! I haven't heard anything about Predator carbs since I was drooling over Summit catalogs in high school. |
| Sounds to me like you may have a vacumn leak (fast ildle, back fire, won't die). 460s were noted for having the gasket between the manifold and the head crack and leak air or crankcase air. Either one would cause these problems. A worn distributer may cause some problems also, but you need to replace the whole thing, not just the cap and rotor. I wouldn't use the predator carb, or the truck avenger, either. I've been tuning holleys since the late 60s and couldn't make a truck avenger run for crap. (I guess I'm not 2 years old yet. I've just got 2 sets of 3-2v s and many other Holleys on 289 hipo, 428s, 427s,429s, and others.....). You do know how to check for intake manifold gasket leaks, don't you? |
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I had a Predator on a mild 460.It was a temperamental sob. Sometimes I would be sitting at a light and it would just start to rev up by itself. Definitely not a street carb. Oh and it got like 5 mpg and that was when gas was $1/ gallon.
Just learn to tune the Holley. Best performance carb bar none. They'll make more HP and be just as streetable and efficient as the less powerful carbs. A Holley 600 on the engine above got 12 mpg. You probably have to block the egr and leave the spacer as the egr manifold has a big hole for the egr that the carb won't cover.might consider stepping up to a better (dual plane) manifold when you do the cam swap. |
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Sounds to me like you may have a vacumn leak (fast ildle, back fire, won't die). 460s were noted for having the gasket between the manifold and the head crack and leak air or crankcase air. Either one would cause these problems. A worn distributer may cause some problems also, but you need to replace the whole thing, not just the cap and rotor. I wouldn't use the predator carb, or the truck avenger, either. I've been tuning holleys since the late 60s and couldn't make a truck avenger run for crap. (I guess I'm not 2 years old yet. I've just got 2 sets of 3-2v s and many other Holleys on 289 hipo, 428s, 427s,429s, and others.....). You do know how to check for intake manifold gasket leaks, don't you? Either/starting fluid around the base and see if it changes Idle IIRC? |
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I had a Predator on a mild 460.It was a temperamental sob. Sometimes I would be sitting at a light and it would just start to rev up by itself. Definitely not a street carb. Oh and it got like 5 mpg and that was when gas was $1/ gallon. Just learn to tune the Holley. Best performance carb bar none. They'll make more HP and be just as streetable and efficient as the less powerful carbs. A Holley 600 on the engine above got 12 mpg. You probably have to block the egr and leave the spacer as the egr manifold has a big hole for the egr that the carb won't cover.might consider stepping up to a better (dual plane) manifold when you do the cam swap. Thanks bud! Well I have determined first order, is hope I get outbid on the Predator  new dizzy and wires, and then and then do vaccumn lines and then perhaps rebuild carb. Slowly but surely I'll get the old girl there.  Thanks to everyone else you guys are great.
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Before you spend money on any new carb I'm gonna tell you something.
You need to be DAMN sure you don't have a vacuum leak. You mentioned that it started missing when revved up, idling fast and having to load it to get it to die to keep it from deiseling. Classic symptoms of a vacuum leak. Look EVERYWHERE including the brake booster. Don't ask how I know.
And don't do the Predator in any case. |
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I know of a truck that's been using a couple of those for 35 years; http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v374/qwertyup/Monster%20Trucks%20and%20Drivers/Bigfoot12-5-09EurekaWalmart01.jpg I always liked Chandler and BIGFOOT was teh BOMB but nobody I ever ran with would run Predators for very long. They just never could seem to get 'em where they liked 'em. And because they were so rare, there was no real knowledge base for guys to tap into like with a Holley / Demon or a Carter Comp . Maybe if Chandler would tune one for you it'd be OK. I'd sure give one a try then.
ETA I did not mean to imply that I actually knew Chandler. I should have worded my statement more to my being a fan. I never met the man personally but I did have friends on the pulling circuit who ran into him occasionally. To a man they all thought highly of him. |
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As others have said, check the distributor and the timing before replacing/rebuilding the carb. Fuel filter is a good spot to look too. Any of those can cause backfiring and are all easier and cheaper fixes than the carb job. Yeah I checked both inline fuel filters. It has 2 in tank pumps, 1 in each tank, and then it has one inline post tank, and then it has one in the carb. They both were good, I'm getting gas, but the next thing is the distributor as I have heard that is a common issue, as well as plugs, and then perhaps look into the carb. Has anyone ever used one of those clean deals you screw into your block and they are supposedly for tuning your carb? Good on the fuel, you're on the right track anyway. Not sure what you're talking about with "clean deals"? If there's something that can make carb tuning any easier, I'm all ears! I haven't done a lot of performance stuff on carbed cars, just tuneups and repairs, but I can't believe some here are recommending Carter. The stock carter BBD that came on my YJ was a monumental failure, I'm much happier since I followed the jeepforum advice, ripped it out, and put in a motorcraft/ford carb.
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Those Predators are akin to the flying toilet bowls of drag racing yesteryear (two circuits, idle and flush ). Basically they're easy to work on because they have the most basic of metering systems, basic is good for simplicity but bad for performance when it comes to air/fuel metering. If you want simple that will run well get an Edelbrock or Carter carb. Talk about a tuning nightmare. Instead of simply changing jets like on a Holley, you are now going to be changing jets, metering rods, and springs....and you're going to have to use a spreadsheet to figure it out for you. The simplest carb (and best running) I've ever messed with is a simple Holley Double Pumper. Primary and Secondary jets.....and that's it. |
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Before you spend money on any new carb I'm gonna tell you something. You need to be DAMN sure you don't have a vacuum leak. You mentioned that it started missing when revved up, idling fast and having to load it to get it to die to keep it from deiseling. Classic symptoms of a vacuum leak. Look EVERYWHERE including the brake booster. Don't ask how I know.
And don't do the Predator in any case. I'm a car guy, and this is exactly where I would start looking. If you don't find a vacum leak, then put a timing light on it (yeah, I know ancient tech and all.. lol) to check and see if the timing is jumping all over the place at idle. If so, you have 1 of 3 things.. worn dizzy shaft bushings, worn dizzy gear or a stretched timing chain. The mechanical advance weights could also be sticking and acting erratically... but not too common a problem. I didn't see anywhere if you told us how many miles the motor has on it. This is a clue as to worn components. As far as a carb goes. Keep the Holley. Eddys are finicky to fuel pressure as mentioned before... but good carbs. PITA to tune though... I wouldn't run a predator if you paid me... honestly, they just suck monkey balls. Get yourself an AED rebuild kit for the Holley and go thru it. If it has back-fired many times, chances are the power valve is toasted. Rebuilding a Holley is easy as pie. Tuning one is as easy as a vacum gauge and about 10 minutes of your time. It really shouldn't need any tuning other than an idle adjustment if cleaned good and a good rebuild kit is put in it... assuming this combo ran fine before.. Get the "list number" off the front of the air horn on the carb and that will tell a parts guy what kit you need. I'm betting you have a vacum leak and toasted the power valve. Both are really simple fixes... I'm adding this thread to my sub list... keep us posted on your progress. mike ETA.. and don't go changing things like a cam until you identify the current problem. All you will be doing is adding variables to the mix. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Those Predators are akin to the flying toilet bowls of drag racing yesteryear (two circuits, idle and flush ). Basically they're easy to work on because they have the most basic of metering systems, basic is good for simplicity but bad for performance when it comes to air/fuel metering. If you want simple that will run well get an Edelbrock or Carter carb. Talk about a tuning nightmare. Instead of simply changing jets like on a Holley, you are now going to be changing jets, metering rods, and springs....and you're going to have to use a spreadsheet to figure it out for you. The simplest carb (and best running) I've ever messed with is a simple Holley Double Pumper. Primary and Secondary jets.....and that's it. I've sold hundreds of Carter/Edelbrocks over the years and the majority of the people are satisfied with the factory tune. The Edelbrock tuning manual/diagram is the simplest tuning aid around it's super easy to tune those carbs and the fact that it take but 5 seconds to change rods/springs is a plus too. Also they really are set and forget carbs, once you get the initial tune it will last forever unlike Holley's. As far as a Holley double pumper just needing jets that's kind of silly as the jets have very minor effect on idle and off idle circuits which is the two circuits on a Holley that the majority of people spend their time tuning. Tuning the stock vacuum secondary 4180 would be much easier for the OP than messing with a dp. Regardless there's still a good chance there's a dizzy problem anyway |
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Those Predators are akin to the flying toilet bowls of drag racing yesteryear (two circuits, idle and flush ). Basically they're easy to work on because they have the most basic of metering systems, basic is good for simplicity but bad for performance when it comes to air/fuel metering. If you want simple that will run well get an Edelbrock or Carter carb. Talk about a tuning nightmare. Instead of simply changing jets like on a Holley, you are now going to be changing jets, metering rods, and springs....and you're going to have to use a spreadsheet to figure it out for you. The simplest carb (and best running) I've ever messed with is a simple Holley Double Pumper. Primary and Secondary jets.....and that's it. I've sold hundreds of Carter/Edelbrocks over the years and the majority of the people are satisfied with the factory tune. The Edelbrock tuning manual/diagram is the simplest tuning aid around it's super easy to tune those carbs and the fact that it take but 5 seconds to change rods/springs is a plus too. Also they really are set and forget carbs, once you get the initial tune it will last forever unlike Holley's. As far as a Holley double pumper just needing jets that's kind of silly as the jets have very minor effect on idle and off idle circuits which is the two circuits on a Holley that the majority of people spend their time tuning. Tuning the stock vacuum secondary 4180 would be much easier for the OP than messing with a dp. Regardless there's still a good chance there's a dizzy problem anyway
I never met anyone that put an Edelbrock on a street machine that wasn't crying about the fuel mileage. And I'll take a DP every time over a vacuum. And I've fooled with a couple of carbs myself. I guess it all boils down to somebody's personal experiences and what they're comfortable with. That's why there's more than 1 brand, so guys can argue about what's "best".
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Quoted: I did not mean to imply that I actually knew Chandler. I should have worded my statement more to my being a fan. I never met the man personally but I did have friends on the pulling circuit who ran into him occasionally. To a man they all thought highly of him. I don't know him either, but I've talked with him at shows and at Midwest FWD when I stop by there, and he's always been very friendly. A regular guy who likes trucks.  |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Those Predators are akin to the flying toilet bowls of drag racing yesteryear (two circuits, idle and flush ). Basically they're easy to work on because they have the most basic of metering systems, basic is good for simplicity but bad for performance when it comes to air/fuel metering. If you want simple that will run well get an Edelbrock or Carter carb. Talk about a tuning nightmare. Instead of simply changing jets like on a Holley, you are now going to be changing jets, metering rods, and springs....and you're going to have to use a spreadsheet to figure it out for you. The simplest carb (and best running) I've ever messed with is a simple Holley Double Pumper. Primary and Secondary jets.....and that's it. I've sold hundreds of Carter/Edelbrocks over the years and the majority of the people are satisfied with the factory tune. The Edelbrock tuning manual/diagram is the simplest tuning aid around it's super easy to tune those carbs and the fact that it take but 5 seconds to change rods/springs is a plus too. Also they really are set and forget carbs, once you get the initial tune it will last forever unlike Holley's. As far as a Holley double pumper just needing jets that's kind of silly as the jets have very minor effect on idle and off idle circuits which is the two circuits on a Holley that the majority of people spend their time tuning. Tuning the stock vacuum secondary 4180 would be much easier for the OP than messing with a dp. Regardless there's still a good chance there's a dizzy problem anyway I never met anyone that put an Edelbrock on a street machine that wasn't crying about the fuel mileage. And I'll take a DP every time over a vacuum. And I've fooled with a couple of carbs myself. I guess it all boils down to somebody's personal experiences and what they're comfortable with. That's why there's more than 1 brand, so guys can argue about what's "best". I'm a double pumper guy too but for simplicity sake they are definitely a bit more complex with having two of everything as apposed to a vacuum secondary with a single accelerator pump, power valve and fixed secondary metering plate. Seems most the AFB style 750 run a little fat from the factory while the 600's tend to be lean. The supplied tuning charts are great if your running lean or fat it tells you everything you need. I see a lot of people trying to adjust lean running 600's with the mixture screws causing a seriously rich mixture at idle/off idle which kills their mileage when all they probably needed to do was swap a set of rods and change the jets with the charted specs. Also AFB's tend to like 5psi fuel pressure while a lot of guys used to Holleys will push 6-7 through them . We squeezed 14 mpg city out of a 600 electric choke (1406) on an old tanker of a station wagon with a 350 Olds using the supplied chart! Hope I don't come off as a know it all, I just enjoy talking about and tuning carburetors.  |
| About 10 or so years ago I got the "strip" version of a predator for free. I have to say, I liked it for what it was. The car ran quicker times than before (I just had a carter afb). Since it was the race version, it would idle awful high. Throttle response was very nice. Then the thing started acting strange so I took it to a swap meet and got 200 bucks for it. Also knew a guy with the street version, it was cool for awhile. Had adjustable idle, etc. Needless to say he went to a Double pumper. I always liked carters, just because they were cheaper than an edelbrock. I never had any problems tuning them. Can't go wrong with a holley either. It's kind of a love/hate thing with carbs, some guys won't touch edelbrocks/carters and the next guy won't touch a holley. |