Posted: 12/30/2010 10:43:13 PM EDT
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Okay, so asking GD on hypothetical legal question may be a sign that I need to lower my alcohol intake, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that some other gun law geek out there might have run into this issue before.
Hypothetically, does federal law prohibit an FFL from delivering a handgun to a resident of the same state, but with the physical transaction occuring outside that state? Or put this way: an FFL is located in State A. John Doe is a resident of State A. The FFL goes to a gun show, or otherwise physically travels to State B, where John Doe proceeds to purchase a handgun from the FFL. The 4473 is signed and certified, and either delivered directly to John Doe at that time, or shipped via applicable shipping methods from the licensee premises in State A to John Doe in State B. The only applicable ATF FAQ entry I can find is this: A licensed dealer may sell and deliver curio or relic firearms to another licensee at an out-of-State gun show. With respect to other firearms transactions, a licensed dealer may only display and take orders for firearms at an out-of-State gun show. In filling any orders for firearms, the dealer must return the firearms to his or her licensed premises and deliver them from that location. Any firearm ordered by a non-licensee must be delivered or shipped from the licensee’s premises to a licensee in the purchaser’s State of residence, and the purchaser must obtain the firearm from the licensee located in the purchaser’s State. Except for sales of curio or relic firearms to other licensees, sales of firearms and simultaneous deliveries at the gun show, whether to other licensees or to non-licensees, violate the law because the dealer would be unlawfully engaging in business at an unlicensed location.
It's clearly stated that the licensee can make a sale (exchange of ownership of a weapon in consideration for money) at an out-of-state location, but apparently cannot complete delivery at the same time. I seem to recall some obscure ATF newsletters regarding in-state sales, in which it was implied that the 4473 could theoretically be mailed to the FFL, and then the weapon could be directly mailed from an FFL to the purchaser so long as both were in the same state. Anyone? |
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This sentence seems to answer your question.
Any firearm ordered by a non-licensee must be delivered or shipped from the licensee’s premises to a licensee in the purchaser’s State of residence, and the purchaser must obtain the firearm from the licensee located in the purchaser’s State.
ETA. Wait, I think that section only applies to C&R. |
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Quoted:
This sentence seems to answer your question. Any firearm ordered by a non-licensee must be delivered or shipped from the licensee’s premises to a licensee in the purchaser’s State of residence, and the purchaser must obtain the firearm from the licensee located in the purchaser’s State.
ETA. Wait, I think that section only applies to C&R. The question would seem to hinge on whether it's possible for the FFL to ship a handgun to a resident of the same state...and if it's legal for it to be shipped inside the state to the resident, why wouldn't it be possible to be shipped outside the state to the same resident. |
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This is probably a better question for the FFL forum, but it doesn't seem that 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3) would prohibit that....
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver - (3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes; |
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Quoted:
Okay, so asking GD on hypothetical legal question may be a sign that I need to lower my alcohol intake, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that some other gun law geek out there might have run into this issue before. Hypothetically, does federal law prohibit an FFL from delivering a handgun to a resident of the same state, but with the physical transaction occuring outside that state? Or put this way: an FFL is located in State A. John Doe is a resident of State A. The FFL goes to a gun show, or otherwise physically travels to State B, where John Doe proceeds to purchase a handgun from the FFL. The 4473 is signed and certified, and either delivered directly to John Doe at that time, or shipped via applicable shipping methods from the licensee premises in State A to John Doe in State B. The only applicable ATF FAQ entry I can find is this: A licensed dealer may sell and deliver curio or relic firearms to another licensee at an out-of-State gun show. With respect to other firearms transactions, a licensed dealer may only display and take orders for firearms at an out-of-State gun show. In filling any orders for firearms, the dealer must return the firearms to his or her licensed premises and deliver them from that location. Any firearm ordered by a non-licensee must be delivered or shipped from the licensee’s premises to a licensee in the purchaser’s State of residence, and the purchaser must obtain the firearm from the licensee located in the purchaser’s State. Except for sales of curio or relic firearms to other licensees, sales of firearms and simultaneous deliveries at the gun show, whether to other licensees or to non-licensees, violate the law because the dealer would be unlawfully engaging in business at an unlicensed location.
It's clearly stated that the licensee can make a sale (exchange of ownership of a weapon in consideration for money) at an out-of-state location, but apparently cannot complete delivery at the same time. I seem to recall some obscure ATF newsletters regarding in-state sales, in which it was implied that the 4473 could theoretically be mailed to the FFL, and then the weapon could be directly mailed from an FFL to the purchaser so long as both were in the same state. Anyone? Blue answers your original question, it seems. IIRC, the buyer has to be a resident of the state where the FFL has their premises address in order and the transfer has to occur in the state for this to apply. Could be wrong though... AIM doesn't do gunshows and it's been awhile since I've been to one so this is purely my speculation, but I don't even think John Doe could fill out a 4473 for a handgun in State B since he's not a resident there. John Doe could put the money down and purchase the handgun, but the 4473 would have to be filled out in State A. |
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the buyer has to take posession of handgun in the state in which he resides. longuns i believe is the state the buyer resides or any adjacent state. Can you back that up with law? I looked all over for it and couldn't find it. All I could find is the buyer must be a resident of the state where the FFL is located. I suppose it would hinge on whether an FFL can conduct business in a different state than he is licensed. I know FFLs can transfer guns in only 2 places. #1-The licensed premises of the FFL. #2-a Gun Show. I don't know if there's a restriction on where the gun show is located. |
| im from missouri and can buy long guns in illinois. i can only buy hand guns in missouri. when i had my ffl i could sell long guns to residents of illinois but if i sold them a handgun i would have to ship it to a ffl in illinois and the customer would have to take possesion from that ffl. that is where the 4473 would also be completed. when selling to a out of state customer the laws of both states must be followed. i never sold to out of state persons but that is how it was explained to me by the inspector. i have purchased a long gun from a dealer in illinois and had to do the waiting period even though missouri doesnt have one. gun shows are a whole other animal becouse depending on the state there are different laws pertaining the the sale and transfer. unless things have changed over the last few years this is how i remember it being explained by the atf inspector. and yes the transfer must take place at a show or the licensed premises. i never did shows so i am not totally sure how that works. |
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im from missouri and can buy long guns in illinois. i can only buy hand guns in missouri. when i had my ffl i could sell long guns to residents of illinois but if i sold them a handgun i would have to ship it to a ffl in illinois and the customer would have to take possesion from that ffl. that is where the 4473 would also be completed. when selling to a out of state customer the laws of both states must be followed. i never sold to out of state persons but that is how it was explained to me by the inspector. i have purchased a long gun from a dealer in illinois and had to do the waiting period even though missouri doesnt have one. gun shows are a whole other animal becouse depending on the state there are different laws pertaining the the sale and transfer. unless things have changed over the last few years this is how i remember it being explained by the atf inspector. and yes the transfer must take place at a show or the licensed premises. i never did shows so i am not totally sure how that works. Yes, but what if the guy who bought a handgun from you was a resident of Missouri, but visiting Chicago? If you showed up to a gunshow there, could you deliver the handgun at the gun show? He's a bona-fide resident of MO. Does the transaction have to completed in MO? |
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im from missouri and can buy long guns in illinois. i can only buy hand guns in missouri. when i had my ffl i could sell long guns to residents of illinois but if i sold them a handgun i would have to ship it to a ffl in illinois and the customer would have to take possesion from that ffl. that is where the 4473 would also be completed. when selling to a out of state customer the laws of both states must be followed. i never sold to out of state persons but that is how it was explained to me by the inspector. i have purchased a long gun from a dealer in illinois and had to do the waiting period even though missouri doesnt have one. gun shows are a whole other animal becouse depending on the state there are different laws pertaining the the sale and transfer. unless things have changed over the last few years this is how i remember it being explained by the atf inspector. and yes the transfer must take place at a show or the licensed premises. i never did shows so i am not totally sure how that works. Yes, but what if the guy who bought a handgun from you was a resident of Missouri, but visiting Chicago? If you showed up to a gunshow there, could you deliver the handgun at the gun show? He's a bona-fide resident of MO. Does the transaction have to completed in MO? This is precisely the question at hand. As was pointed out, the FAQ states that the delivery must take place from the FFL's premises, but if "delivery" can be allowed to include shipping the firearm to the resident inside the same state, then why can't it be allowed to include shipping the firearm to that same resident while he or she is temporarily at an out-of-state location? |
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the buyer has to take posession of handgun in the state in which he resides. longuns i believe is the state the buyer resides or any adjacent state. It doesn't have to be adjacent for long guns. I've bought guns from several FFL's that were across the country from my state. |
| yes i believe the transaction would have to be completed in missouri. i was at a show today and the atf had a big sign on the glass by the entrance. it said that residents of the state in which the show is taking place can aquire long guns and handguns from any ffl. residents of a state other than that in which the show is taking place can aquire long guns from any ffl. it also included info about the aquisition and disposition of personal firearms but thats not in question here. so if a dealer from lets say illinois is working the show taking orders and such and a buyer from illinios wants to purchase a handgun from him the handgun cannot be transfered to him becouse it is a state other than his state of residence. also because it is a state other than where the licensees permanent business is located.. as far a shipping the gun i do not believe an ffl can ship a gun to a non licensee even if the 4473 was completed at the licensed premises. i believe the only way a non licensee can have a gun shipped to him is if he had sent it in for service or repair but i could be wrong. |