Posted: 12/17/2010 1:15:54 AM EDT
|
Let's say I have a friend who owns an RDIAS, or I go to a machiengun shoot... And either the friend or the Machinegun shoot rental guy, lets me borrow the RDIAS for money, at the range....just like someone would do with a full auto M16. But instead, I put the RDIAS into MY AR15, to shoot. Upon completion of my magazine of ammo... I return the RDIAS. IS a law broken? I would think it's no different than handing a full auto M16 to someone to shoot. The RDIAS is the registered/regulated part. How does this work? |
|
Quoted: Which direction is the treadmill going?  Consider that a tag cause i'm curious. Although it's not a problem I ever expect to have. The only reason I'm curious... is because if it IS legal, it would be neat to see what its like to shoot my OWN AR15, with my accessories and the way it's set up... and feel how it shoots full auto. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
m16 parts in your lower do not a machinegun make. If they don't produce full auto fire, it's not a machinegun. The DIAS 'drops in" and negates the need for the "third hole" in the lower. http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001372593/NotSureIfSerious_answer_101_xlarge.jpeg Opinions vary. I personally wouldn't have m16 parts in an ar lower if i didn't own a DIAS...... OTOH, I have never heard of anyone prosecuted successfuly for doing so. |
|
Quoted:
m16 parts in your lower do not a machinegun make. If they don't produce full auto fire, it's not a machinegun. The DIAS 'drops in" and negates the need for the "third hole" in the lower. orly? Why don't you just drive over to the BATF in WV and show them your lower choked full of M16 parts, but no DIAS, and explain that to them as well.
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
m16 parts in your lower do not a machinegun make. If they don't produce full auto fire, it's not a machinegun. The DIAS 'drops in" and negates the need for the "third hole" in the lower. orly? Why don't you just drive over to the BATF in WV and show them your lower choked full of M16 parts, but no DIAS, and explain that to them as well. I wouldn't recommend it as the ATF's MMV 
|
|
Quoted:
m16 parts in your lower do not a machinegun make. If they don't produce full auto fire, it's not a machinegun. The DIAS 'drops in" and negates the need for the "third hole" in the lower. Careful there... that's what got that Olofsson guy in trouble. If you install all the M16 parts EXCEPT the auto-sear, then if you put the selector in the "auto" position, the hammer will follow the bolt home. Most of the time, this will result in a failure to fire. But if soft-primed ammo is used, it COULD result in automatic fire.... though probably not relaibly. If you install M16 parts in your rifle, you're ASKING for trouble, unless you do it in conjunction with a legal receiver or RDIAS. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
m16 parts in your lower do not a machinegun make. If they don't produce full auto fire, it's not a machinegun. The DIAS 'drops in" and negates the need for the "third hole" in the lower. http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001372593/NotSureIfSerious_answer_101_xlarge.jpeg Opinions vary. I personally wouldn't have m16 parts in an ar lower if i didn't own a DIAS...... OTOH, I have never heard of anyone prosecuted successfuly for doing so. David Olofson |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: m16 parts in your lower do not a machinegun make. If they don't produce full auto fire, it's not a machinegun. The DIAS 'drops in" and negates the need for the "third hole" in the lower. http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001372593/NotSureIfSerious_answer_101_xlarge.jpeg Opinions vary. I personally wouldn't have m16 parts in an ar lower if i didn't own a DIAS...... OTOH, I have never heard of anyone prosecuted successfully for doing so. Yeah, but do you think they won't bring you up on charges? |
|
Olafson's parts were m16 parts modded to ARish spec by Olympic. Apparently they were worn and as you said, allowed the hammer to follow and produced some 2 or 3 round bursts. Olafson didn't actually go to jail for that, though.
Just for clarity: I DO NOT recommend anyone stick m16 parts in their lowers. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
m16 parts in your lower do not a machinegun make. If they don't produce full auto fire, it's not a machinegun. The DIAS 'drops in" and negates the need for the "third hole" in the lower. http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001372593/NotSureIfSerious_answer_101_xlarge.jpeg Opinions vary. I personally wouldn't have m16 parts in an ar lower if i didn't own a DIAS...... OTOH, I have never heard of anyone prosecuted successfully for doing so. Yeah, but do you think they won't bring you up on charges? The possibility certainly exists. It's not something I would do, nor do I recommend anyone else do it. There are plenty of people out there with multiple host lowers for their DIAS, and they don't seem to worry about it, though |
| I have many talks with an LEO friend of mine. He is a full blown gun guy like us. Would love to own his own MG. Instead of only using his dept.s. Back when he worked Narcotics he had a close relationship with many ATF guy's. Our discussions about what is technically legal always get derailed by this one little fact. ATF can and will convict on "Intent". For example it is possible that if you have an AR with all the parts but no sear or third hole. They can argue that you Intended to make a MG. These cases usually involve someone who has pissed in their cherios. AKA Olefson. And have many instances of minor infractions and or negative interaction with LEO's. With the ATF finally going all out to nail the individual. So you could have all the parts. You could be at a MG shoot. You could rent a RDIAS. And you could shoot your AR full auto. And nothing would happen to you. Or you could be standing next to an ATF guy at the shoot. Who watches this all happen and says what the hell and arrests you. And now your fate is in the hands of the court system. Do it and let us know how it shakes down. |
|
Quoted:
I have many talks with an LEO friend of mine. He is a full blown gun guy like us. Would love to own his own MG. Instead of only using his dept.s. Back when he worked Narcotics he had a close relationship with many ATF guy's. Our discussions about what is technically legal always get derailed by this one little fact. ATF can and will convict on "Intent". For example it is possible that if you have an AR with all the parts but no sear or third hole. They can argue that you Intended to make a MG. These cases usually involve someone who has pissed in their cherios. AKA Olefson. And have many instances of minor infractions and or negative interaction with LEO's. With the ATF finally going all out to nail the individual. So you could have all the parts. You could be at a MG shoot. You could rent a RDIAS. And you could shoot your AR full auto. And nothing would happen to you. Or you could be standing next to an ATF guy at the shoot. Who watches this all happen and says what the hell and arrests you. And now your fate is in the hands of the court system. Do it and let us know how it shakes down. Exactly, and even if you win and are found not guilty, you still get to pay the tens of thousands in legal fees. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: m16 parts in your lower do not a machinegun make. If they don't produce full auto fire, it's not a machinegun. The DIAS 'drops in" and negates the need for the "third hole" in the lower. http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001372593/NotSureIfSerious_answer_101_xlarge.jpeg Opinions vary. I personally wouldn't have m16 parts in an ar lower if i didn't own a DIAS...... OTOH, I have never heard of anyone prosecuted successfuly for doing so. David Olofson David was not charged or convicted of any such thing. He was convicted of illegally transferring a MG. |
|
Quoted:
Let's say I have a friend who owns an RDIAS, or I go to a machiengun shoot... And either the friend or the Machinegun shoot rental guy, lets me borrow the RDIAS for money, at the range....just like someone would do with a full auto M16. But instead, I put the RDIAS into MY AR15, to shoot. Upon completion of my magazine of ammo... I return the RDIAS. IS a law broken? I would think it's no different than handing a full auto M16 to someone to shoot. The RDIAS is the registered/regulated part. How does this work? I imagine it depends on what state you're in. In VA it would be illegal. VA does not consider the RDIAS a machine gun. They consider the host gun as the machine gun and in VA all machineguns must be registered with the VSP within 24 hours of receipt. This registration requires notarization also. |
| The RDIAS is the machine gun. As long as the person/trust that the stax stamp is issued to is there, then there is no problem. I can swap the auto sear to as many host weapons i can find. The problem begins when you start paying for it. Now you have IRS and dealer implications to worry about. |
|
Quoted:
The RDIAS is the machine gun. As long as the person/trust that the stax stamp is issued to is there, then there is no problem. I can swap the auto sear to as many host weapons i can find. The problem begins when you start paying for it. Now you have IRS and dealer implications to worry about. It may be that way in your state but not in all of them. You people need to qualify your answers. Droping an RDIAS in any host gun maybe OK with the ATF, but not necesarily with the STATE you live in. As stated above, that would be several FELONIES in VA. Illegal manufacture if a machinegun, illegal possession of a machine gun and using a machinegun in a crime (illegally possing a MG in VA is primi facia evidence you were using it in a crime). OP CHECK YOUR STATE LAWS AND DON:Y RELY ON ARFCOM TO GIVE YOU LEGAL ADVISE. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
m16 parts in your lower do not a machinegun make. If they don't produce full auto fire, it's not a machinegun. The DIAS 'drops in" and negates the need for the "third hole" in the lower. http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001372593/NotSureIfSerious_answer_101_xlarge.jpeg Opinions vary. I personally wouldn't have m16 parts in an ar lower if i didn't own a DIAS...... OTOH, I have never heard of anyone prosecuted successfuly for doing so. David Olofson David was not charged or convicted of any such thing. He was convicted of illegally transferring a MG. A technicality at best. If he was transferring his AR with M16 parts in it, and it was considered a "machine gun" by the courts, then what was his AR considered? The gun is either a MG or it isn't. The fact is, he played a stupid game and won a stupid prize. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
m16 parts in your lower do not a machinegun make. If they don't produce full auto fire, it's not a machinegun. The DIAS 'drops in" and negates the need for the "third hole" in the lower. http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001372593/NotSureIfSerious_answer_101_xlarge.jpeg Opinions vary. I personally wouldn't have m16 parts in an ar lower if i didn't own a DIAS...... OTOH, I have never heard of anyone prosecuted successfuly for doing so. David Olofson David was not charged or convicted of any such thing. He was convicted of illegally transferring a MG. A technicality at best. If he was transferring his AR with M16 parts in it, and it was considered a "machine gun" by the courts, then what was his AR considered? The gun is either a MG or it isn't. The fact is, he played a stupid game and won a stupid prize. I was a paid technical advisor to the attorney who represented him on his appeal. There were a series of issues inlcuding poor representation in the original trial as well as his bad attitude and the ATF wanting to get him at all costs. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
m16 parts in your lower do not a machinegun make. If they don't produce full auto fire, it's not a machinegun. The DIAS 'drops in" and negates the need for the "third hole" in the lower. http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001372593/NotSureIfSerious_answer_101_xlarge.jpeg Opinions vary. I personally wouldn't have m16 parts in an ar lower if i didn't own a DIAS...... OTOH, I have never heard of anyone prosecuted successfuly for doing so. David Olofson David was not charged or convicted of any such thing. He was convicted of illegally transferring a MG. A technicality at best. If he was transferring his AR with M16 parts in it, and it was considered a "machine gun" by the courts, then what was his AR considered? The gun is either a MG or it isn't. The fact is, he played a stupid game and won a stupid prize. I was a paid technical advisor to the attorney who represented him on his appeal. There were a series of issues inlcuding poor representation in the original trial as well as his bad attitude and the ATF wanting to get him at all costs. Cool... I certainly value your insight. There is no doubt that the ATF was doing a full court press on this one. I think they pushed the letter of the law to get himat all costs. I think 99+% of people who would put M16 parts into their lower to host a friends RDIAS at a shoot would not have a problem. But I would encourage them to replace the M16 parts (except the BCG) with semi-auto parts right after said event, if they want to 100% sure of avoiding trouble. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
The RDIAS is the machine gun. As long as the person/trust that the stax stamp is issued to is there, then there is no problem. I can swap the auto sear to as many host weapons i can find. The problem begins when you start paying for it. Now you have IRS and dealer implications to worry about. It may be that way in your state but not in all of them. You people need to qualify your answers. Droping an RDIAS in any host gun maybe OK with the ATF, but not necesarily with the STATE you live in. As stated above, that would be several FELONIES in VA. Illegal manufacture if a machinegun, illegal possession of a machine gun and using a machinegun in a crime (illegally possing a MG in VA is primi facia evidence you were using it in a crime). OP CHECK YOUR STATE LAWS AND DON:Y RELY ON ARFCOM TO GIVE YOU LEGAL ADVISE. Hence the " I " in my post. If the OP cant figure out that state laws are differant he doesnt need to own any firearms. Check the WY hometown forum. I'll start the qualification process for my post bomber. here and here |
| to be ABSOLUTELY certain, your upper on his lower..OR, Change out the FCG there, at the shoot, on the bench, then when you're done, break it down, pull the fcg parts, and reinstall the AR FCGthis way, other than when you were acticly shooting with the RDIA, your rifle is in complete AR configuration....lot of bother to go through though if you ask me. |
|
Hence the " I " in my post. If the OP cant figure out that state laws are differant he doesnt need to own any firearms. Check the WY hometown forum. I'll start the qualification process for my post bomber.
here and here Sorry for not recognizing the qualification. Thanks for posting the links but they do not tell the whole story. As an example, machineguns are legal in VA. The question is one of definition. The ATF defines the RDIAS in and of itself a machinegun and thus you can put it in a number of host guns. In VA, the RDIAS is not considered a machinegun or a weapon for that matter until it is in a host gun. Once installed that host gun is considered the machinegun and by law must be registered within 24 hours via a notarized form (can't recall the form number off the top of my head). Because of the way the laws are written in VA with respect to machineguns, the scenario outlined by the OP could lead to 3 felony charges. So my point is, the OP needs to check state and local (if applicable) laws since what is legal on the Federal level may not be legal in his state or locality. |
|
Quoted:
to be ABSOLUTELY certain, your upper on his lower..OR, Change out the FCG there, at the shoot, on the bench, then when you're done, break it down, pull the fcg parts, and reinstall the AR FCGthis way, other than when you were acticly shooting with the RDIA, your rifle is in complete AR configuration....lot of bother to go through though if you ask me. I would leave it as "your upper on his lower" . |
|
Quoted:
Laws aside, you'd also need a full set of m16 fire control parts. I think the way MG "renters" get by with it is they are licensed for suck activity, so I would think with the typical stupidity of the BATF your scenario would be an illegal transfer. There is no machinegun "renters" license or such. Those that rent machineguns must stay in control of the weapon (be there). There are however other issues such as business licenses and sales tax (if they are also providing the ammo) . |
|
Quoted: Hence the " I " in my post. If the OP cant figure out that state laws are differant he doesnt need to own any firearms. Check the WY hometown forum. I'll start the qualification process for my post bomber. here and here Sorry for not recognizing the qualification. Thanks for posting the links but they do not tell the whole story. As an example, machineguns are legal in VA. The question is one of definition. The ATF defines the RDIAS in and of itself a machinegun and thus you can put it in a number of host guns. In VA, the RDIAS is not considered a machinegun or a weapon for that matter until it is in a host gun. Once installed that host gun is considered the machinegun and by law must be registered within 24 hours via a notarized form (can't recall the form number off the top of my head). Because of the way the laws are written in VA with respect to machineguns, the scenario outlined by the OP could lead to 3 felony charges. So my point is, the OP needs to check state and local (if applicable) laws since what is legal on the Federal level may not be legal in his state or locality. Your post would be a lot better worded if you stated that the State of Virginia does not recognize an RDIAS as a machinegun. Your post makes it look like ATF regs and or fed law are different in VA. Just my opinion, but if you're trying to set the record straight it would help to be more clear.
|
|
Your post would be a lot better worded if you stated that the State of Virginia does not recognize an RDIAS as a machinegun. Your post makes it look like ATF regs and or fed law are different in VA.
Just my opinion, but if you're trying to set the record straight it would help to be more clear. Well I thought I clearly stated that several times including in bold red letters
VA does not consider the RDIAS a machine gun.
It may be that way in your state but not in all of them. You people need to qualify your answers. Droping an RDIAS in any host gun maybe OK with the ATF, but not necesarily with the STATE you live in. As stated above, that would be several FELONIES in VA.
In VA, the RDIAS is not considered a machinegun or a weapon for that matter until it is in a host gun. Once installed that host gun is considered the machinegun and by law must be registered within 24 hours via a notarized form
These are from 3 separate posts but to make you happy.......VIRGINIA DOES NOT CONSIDER THE RDIAS A MACHINEGUN. VIRGINIA CONSIDERS THE HOST GUN AS THE MACHINEGUN AND IT MUST BE REGISTERED IN VIRGINIA. |
|
Quoted:
I figured it was illegal to have M16 parts in an AR15... . I sort of thought an RDIAS is sort of like a "Drop in kit". IE, no need for additional parts. No, its not drop in. Requires alot of work. Even after all thats installed it requires tuning to make it run good. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I figured it was illegal to have M16 parts in an AR15... . I sort of thought an RDIAS is sort of like a "Drop in kit". IE, no need for additional parts. No, its not drop in. Requires alot of work. Even after all thats installed it requires tuning to make it run good. You're right in general they do require tuning. I had a customer buy 3 of them this past year which ran as a drop in. We got them from a guy in NYC who used to provide guns to production companies filming in NYC. He's and 02 SOT and he had 16 of them on one F1 I got a copy of. These things were brand spanking new and had been in his safe since 85  . He's selling them off now as a little boost to his retirement fund.
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I figured it was illegal to have M16 parts in an AR15... . I sort of thought an RDIAS is sort of like a "Drop in kit". IE, no need for additional parts. No, its not drop in. Requires alot of work. Even after all thats installed it requires tuning to make it run good. You're right in general they do require tuning. I had a customer buy 3 of them this past year which ran as a drop in. We got them from a guy in NYC who used to provide guns to production companies filming in NYC. He's and 02 SOT and he had 16 of them on one F1 I got a copy of. These things were brand spanking new and had been in his safe since 85 . He's selling them off now as a little boost to his retirement fund.
Bet he payed very little for them also. Kinda like the " red room". The M-16 parts in a lower has been tossed back and forth so many times now. I'm not gonna chance being the case law for the BATF. Basically, if you dont have One of the three options, keep the 16 parts out of the lower. Been looking over the VA laws, they run things completely differant than here. |
|
Bet he payed very little for them also. Kinda like the " red room".
The M-16 parts in a lower has been tossed back and forth so many times now. I'm not gonna chance being the case law for the BATF. Basically, if you dont have One of the three options, keep the 16 parts out of the lower. Been looking over the VA laws, they run things completely differant than here. My customer paid $10K per. The 02 in NY made them. Probably cost him $20 to make. VA is pretty straight forward most of the time, but then has some quirks. The MG registration process is one of them. It's a NFA friendly state (sans street sweepers) but requires manufacturer logs even for folks doing them on F1s. (ohh just realized in my post above I should have said F2). VA doesn't regulate SBRs, SBSs and silencers and defaults to the NFA. I wish you guys had CHP reciprosity with us. |
|
Quoted:
Olafson's parts were m16 parts modded to ARish spec by Olympic. Apparently they were worn and as you said, allowed the hammer to follow and produced some 2 or 3 round bursts. Olafson didn't actually go to jail for that, though. Just for clarity: I DO NOT recommend anyone stick m16 parts in their lowers. Wait, it came that way... no, he bought new parts and replaced them for like items...... oh, no a family member swapped them...... oh wait, the guy he gave the rifle to swapped them out. Not a consistent defense. |
|
Quoted:
Bet he payed very little for them also. Kinda like the " red room".
The M-16 parts in a lower has been tossed back and forth so many times now. I'm not gonna chance being the case law for the BATF. Basically, if you dont have One of the three options, keep the 16 parts out of the lower. Been looking over the VA laws, they run things completely differant than here. My customer paid $10K per. The 02 in NY made them. Probably cost him $20 to make. VA is pretty straight forward most of the time, but then has some quirks. The MG registration process is one of them. It's a NFA friendly state (sans street sweepers) but requires manufacturer logs even for folks doing them on F1s. (ohh just realized in my post above I should have said F2). VA doesn't regulate SBRs, SBSs and silencers and defaults to the NFA. I wish you guys had CHP reciprosity with us. Shit $10K for an RDIAS isnt bad at all...too bad the PRNJ doesnt allow such things  that'd be a nice retirement present for myself.
|
|
Quoted: Your post would be a lot better worded if you stated that the State of Virginia does not recognize an RDIAS as a machinegun. Your post makes it look like ATF regs and or fed law are different in VA. Just my opinion, but if you're trying to set the record straight it would help to be more clear. Well I thought I clearly stated that several times including in bold red letters VA does not consider the RDIAS a machine gun. It may be that way in your state but not in all of them. You people need to qualify your answers. Droping an RDIAS in any host gun maybe OK with the ATF, but not necesarily with the STATE you live in. As stated above, that would be several FELONIES in VA. In VA, the RDIAS is not considered a machinegun or a weapon for that matter until it is in a host gun. Once installed that host gun is considered the machinegun and by law must be registered within 24 hours via a notarized form These are from 3 separate posts but to make you happy.......VIRGINIA DOES NOT CONSIDER THE RDIAS A MACHINEGUN. VIRGINIA CONSIDERS THE HOST GUN AS THE MACHINEGUN AND IT MUST BE REGISTERED IN VIRGINIA. Thanks. |