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Posted: 4/28/2002 9:44:47 AM EDT
Even after their laws have failed them repeatedly over the last few years, they still want more laws! I love this quote: "The major problem now is that firearms are being smuggled into Sweden and that's something we're considering how to combat," said Anders Perklev, a spokesman for the Swedish Justice Ministry. "The problem is that illegal firearms are more often found among criminals." No sh!t sherlock. Criminals by definition don't follow laws, and therefore will not follow gun laws. Does anyone in Europe see the stupidity in their positions? Are they all idiots? [url]http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/world/1385889[/url]
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 10:08:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 10:13:26 AM EDT
Stupid euro trash morons... and to think WE are descendants from them... sheesh... Mike
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 10:17:51 AM EDT
Europeans [whacko]
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 11:01:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By djk: Europe...Are they all idiots?
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I think that remark is extremely offensive... ...and 100% accurate.
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 11:17:38 AM EDT
If you think about Europeans as govt.s I agree with you: we Europeans are governed by gutless morons that thinks only to have a government chair under their asses. If you are talking about Eu people, I cannot agree with you: there are many Europeans that are ar15.com friends and about firearms thinks and feel like you americans. And saying "Europeans are morons" without any specification about whom are you talking about, I think that is offending also for all that Europeans that are friends of RKBA supporters. And RKBA needs friends not only in USA...
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 11:32:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PaoloAR15: If you think about Europeans as govt.s I agree with you: we Europeans are governed by gutless morons that thinks only to have a government chair under their asses. If you are talking about Eu people, I cannot agree with you: there are many Europeans that are ar15.com friends and about firearms thinks and feel like you americans. And saying "Europeans are morons" without any specification about whom are you talking about, I think that is offending also for all that Europeans that are friends of RKBA supporters. And RKBA needs friends not only in USA...
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Where did I say Europeans are morons? I did not. I asked a question. Are they all idiots? I take it you are in the vast minority? Keep spreading the word, as you have a long long way to go.
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 11:49:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 12:23:18 PM EDT
Don't be too smug... it CAN happen here. I moved from the UK to escape the bans resulting from the post-Dunblane witch-hunt in 1996. In less than 100 years Britain has gone from having a Prime Minister who extolled the virtues of having "a rifle in every cottage in England" to an almost total ban on private firearm ownership. How did it happen ? In small steps. The first gun restrictions were as a result of the Russian revolution; the ruling classes were terrified that the unwashed masses might attempt the same thing in Britain, so they started to restrict gun ownership (guess they did learn something from the American colonies after all). Restrictions in Britain tightened steadily over the next 50 years, but the really big change came with the 1969 Firearms Act that introduced licensing for all firearms. A police-issued license was required to posess and acquire a gun, and the applicant had to demonstrate a "good reason" for gun ownership. All guns were registered with the police. At first, gun owners (traditionally the most law-abiding segment of the populace) happily bought into this, as the majority of recreational uses were approved (hunting, target shooting etc.). It should be noted, however, that "self defense" was specifically excluded from the list of "good reasons", and this is where we Brits dropped the ball. Over the next 3 decades there was a relentless turning of the screw on gun ownership. The "reasonable" licensing procedures became progressively more bureaocratic; license fees went up, processing times grew longer, abitary limits were placed on number and type of gun, often at the whim of local police officials. As a result, the number of recreational shooters dwindled steadily. Of course, as gun owners represented a smaller and smaller proportion of the population, our political muscle declined to virtually zero, and the popular perception that "guns are bad" (i.e. fear of the unknown) grew amongst the people. Then, when a shocking school shooting (Dunblane) angered the masses just before a general election year, shooters were a small enough group to be snuffed out mercilessly. After all, what "good reason" for gun ownership was more important that safety for the children ? And, the Government knew where to find us and what we had !! Don't kid yourselves it can't happen here. I'm sick of hearing Americans brag that "the Brits were so dumb - the Government won't take my guns"... what are you going to do when the local SWAT team come to your house to get them ? Have a shoot out while your wife and kids hide in the bedroom ? Ask our friends in California. Given my experience in Britain, I concluded that there are two critical areas to NEVER give ANY ground on. 1) Allowing the Government to define what are or are not "good reasons" to own guns. 2) Allowing any type of gun registration. One last point - once you lose freedons you hardly ever get them back. Don't make the same mistakes we did... fight now and keep fighting. The gun-banners have all the time in the world to take our guns away. Once we lose them, they are gone forever.
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 12:30:06 PM EDT
Excellent post., [b]StealthyBlagga[/b] — That's one for the scrapbook.
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 1:03:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Skibane: Excellent post., [b]StealthyBlagga[/b] — That's one for the scrapbook.
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Yup. Political agenda or agendas in general usually are held together by a group. The anti gun people say safety, public good, so on, but if you look at history and ask, who benefited from gun control/banning? Bascially, agendas out live individual people. Example, if a groupd of highly placed people view that they 'know it all' and pass judgment on something, they will find people who have their same views. But they will keep it quite and work quietly toward their goals... and if they know what they are doing, they will find people who will continue on generations down the road. I'm sorry to say, but some people have time on their side.... (not to cause a rant here.)
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 1:22:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Skibane: Excellent post., [b]StealthyBlagga[/b] — That's one for the scrapbook.
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Yea That was well said period! too many people think's that the 94 ban will go away "Yes" that law will BUT there WILL be another one, and WE need to be ready for a fight.
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 1:42:15 PM EDT
Does anyone know what the gun control laws are like in the various European countries anyways? We all know about England (only bolt-action rifles and break open (?) shotguns, must be registered and stored in a safe and police can check at any time, NOT legal to use deadly force against a criminal) What about Germany, Italy, Spain, France, etc? Anyone know?
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 1:52:43 PM EDT
Yeah, I think I know what the law is in France: 1. Retreat 2. Surrender 3. Get someone else to save you
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 2:02:11 PM EDT
And I promised myself not to reply to generalized remarks on ALL europeans. Like Paolo said, european countries are usually governed by polichickens who don't have to worry about heart or spine problems because both seem to be lacking in their anatomies. Yes Paolo and me are "minorities" in our respective countries but we are not alone. You people seem to forget that Europe is not under federal government(thank god) and each country makes up his own laws. Polichickes stating they will combat illegal firearms trafficking are just making feelgood legislation however necessary it may be. As someone else in this thread said before, don't be too smug. You've seen what can happen in California. The handgun ban in D.C. and all the other cosmetic bans on firearms(telestocks, flashhiders etc etc). However strict my countries firearms legislation may be, my AR's have all the features on weapons the US gov. considers postban. That does not excuse anyone to let down their guard. Firearms owners are a easy and vulnerable target, since we react so passionate on our rights and weapons. We are easily branded extremists. But if being extreme about my firearms make me that than so be it. But to be called an idiot/moron or any other euphenism by fellow AR15.com'ers is something I get very pissed of about. Kuiper Dutchman by birth, European by accident.
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 2:05:07 PM EDT
Germany: To get a "license to own weapons" one must prove his need for one. This can be done by being a hunter, a sport shooter, a collector, or by proving you're "more threatened than the average population". There are strict regulations in number and kind of guns allowed to own, magazine capacity, storage and such, which are strictly enforced and checked upon. Germany has a population of 80 million, about ten million legal guns are in private hands, 20 to 30 million illegal guns, there are about 15,000 CCW for "high risk" persons. Certain kinds of guns are strictly verboten, everything that resembles a "weapon of war" for instance, including softair replicas. Here's a pic of the political correct, non scary AR15, but still illegal in Hamburg, Bremen and Hesse: [img]http://www.oberlandarms.de/oainfofiles/image008.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 2:11:29 PM EDT
Looks scaringly what you nearly can't own in Cali now doesn't it. Take a look at my website and see what you CAN own in a small subsea level country to the west of Germany [url]http://members.ams.chello.nl/b.kuiper/new_page_2.htm[/url] Got some pics of my own weapons in the reviews of the Elcan, Aimpoint and RIS equipment.
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 3:03:10 PM EDT
I find it interesting that gun control people use Europe and japan as the example for how well gun control laws work. The example doesn't hold water, obviously. Germany has just had terrible massacre larger than columbine. This with much stricker gun control than even kalifornia. Japan has had sword attacks that were just about as bad. This with no private ownership of guns. Ban all the guns and only the criminals will have them, because criminals are criminals.
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 3:11:30 PM EDT
Gun laws in the European Union (EU) vary tremendously, but are generally more restrictive than here in the US. Kuiper is incorrect about not having "federal" laws in Europe. There are two levels of legislature with jurisdiction over EU citizens; the European Parliament/Commission (analogous to the US Federal Govt) which create pan-European laws/regulations, and the individual Member Nation Governments, who also write their own internal laws. In general, the "pan Europe" laws apply everywhere, and then each country is allowed to pile more laws on top. As an example, in the early 90's, the EU banned "expanding" handgun ammo thoughout Europe unless you had a special license for it. In the UK (before the handgun ban), the police didn't seem to much care about this isue, and so simply worked around it by routinely adding "permission" onto every gun license they issued. Fine and dandy in the UK, but I had to use non-expanding ammo when I went to matches in other European countries. The laws in Europe are generally a mess (worse than in the US), and often a bad joke. For example, in Italy you can't own guns in "military" calibers, and so shooters get around it by reaming out their 9x19 barrels to 9x21. Similar in France, where you need a special license to buy an AR15 in 223 (military calib), but can buy one in 222 (non-military calib with no paperwork at all. In Germany (I think) you can't shoot at "humanoid" targets, so IPSC Germany had special IPSC targets with two heads (one on each shoulder) instead of one in the middle. [SORRY IF ANY OF THE ABOVE IS OUT OF DATE... ITS BEEN A WHILE] In any case, the trend is for Euro-laws to lean towards being a composite of the most restrictive regulations in their member nations. I'm afraid to say the outcome looks bleak.
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 3:12:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Kuiper: And I promised myself not to reply to generalized remarks on ALL europeans. Like Paolo said, european countries are usually governed by polichickens who don't have to worry about heart or spine problems because both seem to be lacking in their anatomies. Yes Paolo and me are "minorities" in our respective countries but we are not alone. You people seem to forget that Europe is not under federal government(thank god) and each country makes up his own laws. Polichickes stating they will combat illegal firearms trafficking are just making feelgood legislation however necessary it may be. As someone else in this thread said before, don't be too smug. You've seen what can happen in California. The handgun ban in D.C. and all the other cosmetic bans on firearms(telestocks, flashhiders etc etc). However strict my countries firearms legislation may be, my AR's have all the features on weapons the US gov. considers postban. That does not excuse anyone to let down their guard. Firearms owners are a easy and vulnerable target, since we react so passionate on our rights and weapons. We are easily branded extremists. But if being extreme about my firearms make me that than so be it. But to be called an idiot/moron or any other euphenism by fellow AR15.com'ers is something I get very pissed of about. Kuiper Dutchman by birth, European by accident.
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Kuiper, Thank you for replying. I was not saying all Europeans were idiots. I was wondering if they were. Thank you for proving me wrong. Keep up the good work!
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 4:03:05 PM EDT
Hi there, I have just got my Firearms Certificate back after years of not bothering with one( got the strop after Handgun ban post Dunblane). I have continued shooting since then as a member of a club but didn't see the need for holding my own Firearms, however with our glorious leader Mr Blair and his cronies trying to undermine the sport further with stealth laws through the back door I decided enough was enough I was playing straight into their hands and going quietly, well forget that its time to find a voice again!!!! As a law abiding citizen im entitled to persue my hobby and have the necessary tools to do that and that is exactly what im doing. I too have a word of warning for you all in the US Beware they who have the power and im not talking your Government, over here its obsesive minority groups backed by corporate giants such as Murdock who hold all the real power, money talks and if you have enough of it your can buy what you want and fulfill personal agendas. As for the politicians they have their own agends, generally about going down in history as the 'First to do' so as I say beware, we found out the hard way.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 8:26:24 AM EDT
Stealthyblagga, Read my post earlier on, even with the EU parliament every county makes his own laws not pile laws upon the EU proposals. Spot the difference in my AR15's and the picture of the German one. Don't you think by me living in the Netherlands, Europe that I have some updated insight in what goes on over here? They sure would love an European consensus over firearms possession. But the fact is the EU is largely an economic union and not so much a federal government body. Kuiper
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 7:21:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By StealthyBlagga: Gun laws in the European Union (EU) vary tremendously, but are generally more restrictive than here in the US. Kuiper is incorrect about not having "federal" laws in Europe. There are two levels of legislature with jurisdiction over EU citizens; the European Parliament/Commission (analogous to the US Federal Govt) which create pan-European laws/regulations, and the individual Member Nation Governments, who also write their own internal laws. In general, the "pan Europe" laws apply everywhere, and then each country is allowed to pile more laws on top. As an example, in the early 90's, the EU banned "expanding" handgun ammo thoughout Europe unless you had a special license for it. In the UK (before the handgun ban), the police didn't seem to much care about this isue, and so simply worked around it by routinely adding "permission" onto every gun license they issued. Fine and dandy in the UK, but I had to use non-expanding ammo when I went to matches in other European countries. The laws in Europe are generally a mess (worse than in the US), and often a bad joke. For example, in Italy you can't own guns in "military" calibers, and so shooters get around it by reaming out their 9x19 barrels to 9x21. Similar in France, where you need a special license to buy an AR15 in 223 (military calib), but can buy one in 222 (non-military calib with no paperwork at all. In Germany (I think) you can't shoot at "humanoid" targets, so IPSC Germany had special IPSC targets with two heads (one on each shoulder) instead of one in the middle. [SORRY IF ANY OF THE ABOVE IS OUT OF DATE... ITS BEEN A WHILE] In any case, the trend is for Euro-laws to lean towards being a composite of the most restrictive regulations in their member nations. I'm afraid to say the outcome looks bleak.
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Update about Italy: for Handguns you still cannot own a 9 x 19 (parabellum) pistol, but only a S&W revolver that shot unjacketed 9 parabellum cartridges. For rifles you can own military and non military calibers rifles and carbines: I own a 30-06 Garand and a .223 Remington Oly AR15. The caliber have only the limitation that you cannot shoot anything more powerful than 338 Lapua Magnum (no 50 BMG...) The limitation on the ammo in military calibers are as follows: -no tracer no armour piercing ammo -no unfired ammo from military surplus or with NATO markings My AR15 in USA should be considered post-ban, and on the magazine there is written [i] for US Law Enforcement or Export only[/i]
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 7:33:26 AM EDT
Was World War II that long ago?
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