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Posted: 4/26/2002 4:00:59 AM EDT
[size=4]Inside a Palestinian terror factory[/size=4] [b]'Serious attack' coming, Palestinian militant says[/b] Olivia Ward EUROPEAN BUREAU NABLUS, West Bank — Ali's bedroom is tidier than those of most teenagers, except for one thing: beside the neatly made bed are half a dozen metal pipes packed with explosive chemicals and topped with fuses. These are homemade bombs, and Ali, 18, is a skilled bomb-maker. He is also a member of one of the youngest units of the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a fast-growing group responsible for many of the suicide bombings that have taken dozens of Israeli lives. While Israel says its three-week incursion into Palestinian towns and villages of the West Bank has been successful in "dismantling the infrastructure of terror," Ali and his comrades set out chilling evidence that the conflict is far from over. It is also a warning that Israel's policy of military containment is limited, and unlikely to bring the peace and security the government has promised its anxious citizens. One Al Aqsa commander says the group may take months to rebuild to its former strength, but needs only weeks to mount a deadly attack. "Perhaps six or seven months are needed before we will be back to the old level. But a very serious attack is possible as early as June," says Abu Khalid. Ali's fellow Al Aqsa member Mohammed says "many young men and women are trying to join us, but we mostly turn them away. They go off and form other groups and work on their own." As he speaks, Ali is pulling two dismantled Kalashnikov rifles from the closet, and putting them together with dexterity and speed. He pulls the trigger to prove his point. Along with the guns are military flak jackets and a protective helmet. The two recruits and their friends are ready and willing to continue the fight, even after a devastating siege that left parts of the Nablus refugee camp and old city centre in ruins and the toll of dead and arrested fighters still mounting. During Israel's massive military operation in the West Bank, the security forces have detained more than 4,000 Palestinians, and 1,230 suspected militants are still in custody. Some of them are ringleaders of Al Aqsa, the resistance movement Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah, the main military and political group under Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization. Fatah has strong links with Al Aqsa, and helps to steer the group. Israel has also killed at least 30 of the leaders of those militant organizations, along with dozens of foot soldiers who died in fighting or were targeted by Israeli special operations: the largest action of this kind since the collapse of the peace process in the fall of 2000. - continued -
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 4:01:49 AM EDT
The Israel Defence Forces have seized thousands of guns, 30 kilos of explosives and eight belts designed for suicide bombings. Twenty-four bomb-making laboratories were destroyed. "The operation was definitely successful because it gave a serious blow to the terrorist infrastructure," said IDF spokesperson Jacob Dallal. "We arrested over 100 Palestinians on Israel's wanted list of about 300. These are the top, key people. Hundreds involved in terrorism are now out of circulation." And, he pointed out, "the number of attacks against Israel has gone down dramatically. We did have two attacks in the last two weeks, but this is a far cry from the period before the operation began, when there was a suicide bombing every day. So the numbers speak for themselves." Fifty kilometres north of Jerusalem, in a densely populated Nablus refugee camp — a maze of concrete block and stone houses, shops and market stalls — Ali and Mohammed readily acknowledge they have lost comrades and commanders, as well as unarmed friends and relatives, in the latest weeks of fighting between Israelis and Palestinians. But the experience has only hardened them, and the departed have become honoured martyrs whose portraits are made into posters, and whose photographs are carried everywhere they go. A cult of death whose membership is expanding daily. Military equipment, they admit, is running low. But they have no doubt there will be enough by the time the next fighting erupts. In the meantime, their own bomb-making operation is yielding steady results. [b]`My mother won't let me do this in the house. She doesn't like the dust and the smell.'[/b] Ali, teenage Palestinian bomb-maker "It takes 15 minutes to make one bomb," says Mohammed, a thin, unsmiling young man. "And it costs about 30 shekels (about $10) each." The main ingredient in many of the crude bombs is common agricultural fertilizer, used in some of the most powerful devices set off in Northern Ireland. Screws and nails are added to make the compact 20-centimetre-long cylinders more deadly. It's a dangerous business for the uninitiated. Three Hamas recruits were killed this week in Gaza trying to cobble together similar bombs. But the teenagers say they have had expert training from senior brigade members. Ali explains that he makes his stock of bombs on the porch. "My mother won't let me do this in the house," he says, embarrassed. "She doesn't like the dust and the smell." And, he adds, "I'm not afraid. I'm ready to give my life for the liberation of our country." This, for Israel, is the heart of the problem the country faces as troops begin to withdraw and form fortified "buffer zones" around the main West Bank towns. "If attacks resume again after we withdraw, the IDF is poised to re-enter areas for swift operations based on the information we receive," said Dallal. "The military operation does not provide the ultimate solution to terror, but it can provide a temporary answer." - continued -
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 4:03:04 AM EDT
How long Israel's respite will last is yet to be seen, as the survivors of the fighting regroup, change tactics, and strengthen their resolve to fight to the end, convinced they have little to lose. They believe their alternatives are an independent Palestinian state or permanent military occupation. In Nablus, Abu Khalid, the nom de guerre of an Al Aqsa commander who escaped the recent assault, says militant organizations have been "badly hurt" by the Israeli action, but retain the ability — and the will — to strike terror into the country. "The survivors of the siege are taking pains to go underground now," he says. "We will have to operate differently, but we will continue with our plans." One of the results of Israel's recent military action is that the chain of command in the main militant organizations has been disrupted, if not destroyed. Arafat's influence with the surviving commanders is dubious, and as he remains garrisoned in his Ramallah headquarters, and they move secretly in isolation, it will be more difficult for any ceasefire deal Arafat may negotiate to be enforced. Another effect, says Abu Khalid, a weary-looking man in his 30s, is that the enmity among militant groups has cooled, at least temporarily. Geographical divisions have also blurred. "It's homogeneous now," he says. "If there's an attack in Jenin, there will be revenge in Nablus, or vice versa. There's co-operation between militias, and towns. We know that bullets don't distinguish between us." Bullets, and rockets, have found some of the most high-profile members of the Al Aqsa group, and in Nablus alone 20 group members have died in the past weeks. Al Aqsa's Hebron chief, Marwan Zalloum, was killed Monday when a missile was fired into his car, and the group's Ramallah commander is dead. The militant wing of Islamic Jihad, whose membership is smaller than that of Al Aqsa, has also suffered a serious blow in the past three weeks. "The biggest loss for us was in Jenin camp, where they killed tens of us," says Abdel Nasser Sowais, a senior member from Tulkarm, northwest of Jerusalem. In Jenin, he says, about 50 Jihad fighters were still unaccounted for, and the group lost four in Tulkarm. Three more were assassinated in West Bank villages. "In some places they've appointed new commanders already," he said. "They're younger." Hamas, too, has been damaged significantly by the Israeli assault. "The level of resistance may be changed, but the determination to resist is the same," says Rafaat Nasif, who heads the organization's political wing in Tulkarm. As Israeli troops move back to the new buffer zones, they are braced for the worst. Palestinian militants say that unless there is radical progress toward a peace deal that grants them statehood, that is what they can expect. - continued -
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 4:04:51 AM EDT
In his bedroom, Ali glances at his row of bombs. "They have those," he says glumly, looking upwards at an imaginary Israeli fighter plane. "And we only have these." * * * Hmmm, the Palestinian mother of the teenager doesn't like the smell of the bombs, but she still allows the bombs to be made and stored in her house. What reason would the mother have for this? Oh yes, [b]25,000[/b] reasons from Saddam Hussein, and [b]5,000[/b] reasons from Prince Abdullah! Eric The(OrAmIJustTooCynical?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 4:15:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: In his bedroom, Ali glances at his row of bombs. "They have those," he says glumly, looking upwards at an imaginary Israeli fighter plane. "And we only have these." Eric The(OrAmIJustTooCynical?)Hun[>]:)]
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If you charge the U.S. $5 billion/year you can afford tanks, helicopters and F-16's. What do they want when they only asked for $75 million [?]
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 4:32:56 AM EDT
Jeepers, [b]subsailor[/b], you act like that 5 Billion was coming out of your pockets![:D] Bush has given the Pentagon everything it has asked for in his new budget, so that old 'US military needs it more' dog won't hunt around these parts, any more! I wonder what Saudi Prince Abdullah's attitude toward the US [u]might[/u] be if he didn't have a Galil bayonet pointed against his swarthy throat? We are needed in the neighborhood, 'cause we are the only one who can 'rein in' Sharon!!! 'But, Hun', you say! 'We [u]didn't[/u] rein in Sharon! He went about his West Bank bomb factory/house cleaning as usual!' That's right.[:D] So Prince, aren't you glad you didn't have to see how your Saudi troops would have handled the IDF? Eric The(SassyAsHell)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 4:36:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: 'US military needs it more' .......... Eric The(SassyAsHell)Hun[>]:)]
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Agreed !
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 4:43:52 AM EDT
Strange, I have never heard a Pentagon official ever complain about Israeli military assistance. Reckon [u]they[/u] might think the money is very well spent? Eric The(Serious)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 4:45:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Reckon [u]they[/u] might think the money is very well spent? Eric The(Serious)Hun[>]:)]
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No !
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 4:52:46 AM EDT
Source?[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 5:00:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Source?[>]:)]
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Various enlisted over in Lawton. Many tank crews are about one rank short for their position - inadequate spare parts, gasoline and ammunition for proper training.
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 5:32:02 AM EDT
At Ft. Sill? [:D] Have you ever heard an enlisted man [u]not[/u] complain? But, seriously, the Pentagon's budget is at it's highest level in years, and will, no doubt, get even higher. If the Brass in the Pentagon doesn't know how to properly and wisely use the funds it receives, how can we count on them to use our sons and daughters ([u]or[/u] our grandsons and granddaughters), wisely? I think it's going to take a while to shake out all of the Clinton-era BS in military thinking before we get back on the right path. It might be well into Bush's second term before that happens! But trust me, [b]subsailor[/b], knowing Washington, DC, the way both of us do, do you really think that any money we save from sending military assistance to Israel is going to be used on the US military, or, more likely pizzed down some welfare hole, somewhere? Eric The(StillCynicalInSpiteOfIDFSuccesses)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 5:38:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: At Ft. Sill? [:D] Have you ever heard an enlisted man [u]not[/u] complain? But, seriously, the Pentagon's budget is at it's highest level in years, and will, no doubt, get even higher. If the Brass in the Pentagon doesn't know how to properly and wisely use the funds it receives, how can we count on them to use our sons and daughters ([u]or[/u] our grandsons and granddaughters), wisely? I think it's going to take a while to shake out all of the Clinton-era BS in military thinking before we get back on the right path. It might be well into Bush's second term before that happens! But trust me, [b]subsailor[/b], knowing Washington, DC, the way both of us do, do you really think that any money we save from sending military assistance to Israel is going to be used on the US military, or, more likely pizzed down some welfare hole, somewhere? Eric The(StillCynicalInSpiteOfIDFSuccesses)Hun[>]:)]
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Eric, pizzing money down a 'U.S.' welfare hole is preferable to me. The $5 Billion gift to Israel is just foreign welfare as Israel cannot exist without the money. ----------------------------------------------- Eric (anyone), is it true that Christianity cannot be preached on the streets of Israel ? I saw this mentioned some time back but don't remember the responses - if any.
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 6:25:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/26/2002 6:27:11 AM EDT by EricTheHun]
Post from 5subslr5 -
The $5 Billion gift to Israel is just foreign welfare as Israel cannot exist without the money.
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'[u]Cannot[/u] exist'? I seriously doubt that! That's like saying the 'poor in America' could not exist without welfare. I grew up in Texas, poor, as we all were, in the 1950s. Sure, there were poorer people than we were, but I don't recall ever having to step over any dead bodies in the streets in Texas in those days! I never saw a family so poor that they couldn't get their son's broken leg fixed nice and proper. No kids died from malnutrition. I remember going to church and having poor families come into our church during services seeking help. They were helped. Their cup was fully measured, shaken, and pressed down with food! That's what Our Father had taught us. And it's just the way we were. It's still the way we are! I was there, and so were you! Did you see any scenes from Hades? I thought not!
is it true that Christianity cannot be preached on the streets of Israel ?
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Is it true that Christianity cannot be preached in the public schools in America? Quite frankly, my question bothers me more than your question. And, yes, the open preaching of Christianity is not encouraged in Israel. You will be taken aside and asked not to continue. But consider where you are, my friend. If the Jews have anything against Christianity, it is something that we Christians have taught them well! To our eternal shame! The Holocaust did not just happen out of thin air. There were several centuries of lies upon lies that paved the way for this great evil. The German people read Luther real well. Much too well. They had just enough Christianity to make them hate Jews, but not enough Christianity to make them love the Jews, as one would love an older brother. If they had spent more time showing the Jews, the 'better way', and less time in pogroms, butcherings, blood libels, etc., there may not have been any 'Jews' left by the 20th Century! Here's the link to a British-based 'Christian Witness to Israel' website, and in their frequently asked questions forum, they do not complain of being harassed by the Israeli authorities.[url]http://www.cwi.org.uk/index.htm[/url] Now, I am certain that the ultra-orthodox Jews will harass Christian missionaries. Hell, they harass Reform and Conservative Jews, as well as nonpracticing Jews! So it stands to reason they will harass Christians! In 1997 there was a bill that came before the Knesset to prohibit open Christian preaching, but after Netanyahu threatened to veto it, the bill was withdrawn! So, Israel has its 'bible thumpers' too! Eric The(BibleThumping)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 6:56:54 AM EDT
The 2001 US military budget is about 305 billion... do you really think the brass would benefit from another 5 billion? What are they doing with the money they already get?
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 7:16:34 AM EDT
I have a friend who lived on a Kibbutz(sp?)in Israel, for a year. He says that he and his friends celebrated Yom Kippur by roasting a Pig and drinking champagne. Don't believe everything you hear.
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 7:47:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/26/2002 8:03:39 AM EDT by Benjamin0001]
The 2001 US military budget is about 305 billion... do you really think the brass would benefit from another 5 billion? What are they doing with the money they already get?
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In the Years 83-87 it was over 400 Billion / year, and peaked at 45x Billion dollars. But yeah back then we had an army of 1.5Million and 36 fighter wings and 250,000-300,000 people stationed in Germany in mostly Fully Operating Tank Brigades. Nah We don't need any more money. Hah, For this war we are about 1Million men short, and the Merchant Fleet is almost Totally mothballed destroyed is our ability to sea lift. Fighter planes sittin there not being fixed, just rotting. I think we are behind by about 3 years..... My Guess Ben Its like this Say it takes you 1000/month to run your household, then because of certain additions it is running at 2000/month but all of a sudden you loose 1000/month but your infrastructure calls for 2000/month and so shit is breaking down and your children are only going to school 1 day a week, because it costs to much and you only get to drive your car on fridays , when you usta drive everyday. You get the picture. EDITED BECAUSE I WANT TO BITCH ABOUT THIS SOME MORE: So the Berlin wall collapses and the soviet union disentigrates and the Democrats proclaim the cold war over and that peace is at hand, and everybody I know was thinking BULLSHIT the world just got 10 times more dangerous this was 89/90. But the populace in their particular manner which they have decided to Elect Bill Clinton, when one of the questions was Whether he was for the military. Everybody knew that he was not, He was a Democrat for god sakes. And low and behold he cut the defense without hesitation, butchered it. And then he decided to go and send troops to 63 seperate locations throughout the globe depleating it further, and closed alot of bases and cancelled a bunch of programs. And the fighter planes were fallin apart and the fighter pilots were fleeing to the the commercial airlines so that they would actually get to fly. And people like my brother were wastin time in the shop because they could spend any money maintaining anything. And soldier weren't training and the Troops started Hating clinton and every Soldier that called Rush Limbaugh was crying for help and screaming at clinton. And their moral hit the very bottom and they despised the man in the whitehouse. And so Clinton in the end decided to give them Black Berrets.... hahaha. FUCK CLINTON... And screw every frickin politicians who didn't have the foresight to see what the hell was going on in the world.. OK RANT OVER.
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 8:21:29 AM EDT
ON a brighter note, I now get to go to sleep at night and hear them testing Engines at Tinker AFB, and I know that our boys are busy again and I am thankful for that. And I get to look up and see fighter planes flying again. In the Eighties you would look up and see Contrails all over the sky as they approached their VORTAC's from every direction and through the Nineties the sky was conspicously Empty. It is good to look up and see F-15's flyin and National Gaurd planes in the sky. I don't know about you but I feel a little better, because I know now that someone is doing something right. Ben
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 8:44:22 AM EDT
Most people draw too many conclusions....... I have a friend who lived on a Kibbutz(sp?)in Israel, for a year. He says that he and his friends celebrated Yom Kippur by roasting a Pig and drinking champagne. Don't believe everything you hear. This is nothing since only a few Jews keep Kosher, a few more keep Kosher on High Holy days, and most don't. But we are all still Jews and as an American Jew my alligance is to the US first. But Israel keeps the Middle East under some sort of control for us. DO you think for one minute they will say, "Hey you infidel, you are our friend now! We will stop hating you. " If you are a Jew or Believe in Jesus, remember is is a Jew always was. you are on the Islam hate list.
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 8:50:12 AM EDT
Exactly. The Israeli don't "enforce" Judaism.
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 11:48:10 AM EDT
Thanks Ben... I just like to think that 305 billion should be enough to get some things done. You make a good point about priorities and management being probably more important than sheer dollars. Especially true since our federal budget runs at about 1.8 trillion, you'd think there would be enough...
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 12:09:43 PM EDT
I just dislike the way that between every war the US draws down. This Last time was very pointless because of this issues I listed above. The Military Industrial Complex creates Jobs' Produces Wealth and produces things of value that the Welfare state never can. So at the time the democrats were saying that the military was too big and needed to be cut, because there wasn't enough money. They cut the military increased welfare spending and that in know way produces what the MIC does. Oh well, life goes on. The problem just needs to be fixed. Ben
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 12:51:18 PM EDT
and closed a lot of bases and cancelled a bunch of programs.
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That is the problem the military has. The military brass really don't have control over the bases that are open and the programs that are funded. It is the politicians. Oddly enough, the military brass has wanted to close many many military bases for years, but the base is always some senators pet military base. The same goes for programs.
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 1:09:08 PM EDT
That is the problem the military has. The military brass really don't have control over the bases that are open and the programs that are funded. It is the politicians. Oddly enough, the military brass has wanted to close many many military bases for years, but the base is always some senators pet military base. The same goes for programs
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SOme of that is true, Military Basis aren't always set up in the best place for the current situation. Some programs need to be scraped. But some programs like Maintenance, Training, Procurement and Production, and R&D. Do NOT NEED to be. Some weapons systems found themselves cancelled like TACIT Rainbow, which at the time was great idea but was scraped. Some capability has been still been maintained such as Now the Role Tacit Rainbow was designed for can be handled by a Drone having greater range and carrying better firepower. My main contention is that we drew down our military when we shouldn't have, We lost a great deal of Power Projection in that deal. Where we usta have the ability to fight on two fronts we now can fight on one Front and two regional's. In this current show down in the worst case Scenario, we may find ourselves fighting on three fronts and two regionals. So far we have been able to totally dictate the Timing and Directions of Actions on a Strategic Scale. I hope that continues to be the case. Thus far it is holding. I don't know if it will hold for the duration. Ben
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 4:05:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: Eric (anyone), is it true that Christianity cannot be preached on the streets of Israel ? I saw this mentioned some time back but don't remember the responses - if any.
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I recieve "Isreal My Glory" which is a periodical dealing with Israeli (of course) issues from a Christian perspective. One of the best articles each month is written by a Messianic Jew name Zvi. Zvi makes it his business to preach in Israel and has converted many. He is bolder than napalm at midnight, so if he is ever "encouraged" not to do so I doubt that he would stop or care. The story of life is a book titled "ZVI". It starts in Berlin when he is 8-years old in about 1938. Excellent history and one heck of a story. If the story in that book is 1/2 true, it sure answers that thread about "Do you believe in the devil".
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 4:26:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Crock:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: Eric (anyone), is it true that Christianity cannot be preached on the streets of Israel ? I saw this mentioned some time back but don't remember the responses - if any.
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I recieve "Isreal My Glory" which is a periodical dealing with Israeli (of course) issues from a Christian perspective. One of the best articles each month is written by a Messianic Jew name Zvi. Zvi makes it his business to preach in Israel and has converted many. He is bolder than napalm at midnight, so if he is ever "encouraged" not to do so I doubt that he would stop or care. The story of life is a book titled "ZVI". It starts in Berlin when he is 8-years old in about 1938. Excellent history and one heck of a story. If the story in that book is 1/2 true, it sure answers that thread about "Do you believe in the devil".
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Would that group be "Bridges for Peace"? I've also heard that there are laws against prosyletizing. I wish they would at least quit assaulting and insulting the best friends they will ever have... Right Wing Fundamentalists [O:)]
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 8:48:12 PM EDT
The 2001 US military budget is about 305 billion... do you really think the brass would benefit from another 5 billion? What are they doing with the money they already get?
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Spending it on gender equality training. Spending it on sensitivity training. Spending it on "nation building" and "humanitarian" missions. Spending it on napalm disposal. (I thought you were supposed to dispose of this stuff on your enemies' heads!) Spending it on environmental restoration of training grounds. Spending it on black berets. Ad nauseam.... [shock] [puke] Tate
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