[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Executor of estate problems... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/28/2010 9:55:54 PM EDT
|
My mom passed away a couple weeks ago. My older sister is the executrix of her estate. There's 4 bank accounts, some cd's, and her house. The will says the estate should be divided equally between the three of us.
Problem: My older sister gets real defensive and pissed off when me and my younger sister ask her to show us the assets and bills that have to be paid. We have no idea who might be a beneficiary, how much money there is, or where the money may have gone. Problem: theres a checking account with my older sisters name on the checks. (my mom gave her Power of Attorney a few years ago and let her pay the bills out of this checking account). We think she's transferred about $95K into that account. Problem: my younger sister swears there were 7 cd's, and the executrix says there are only 4. Problem: she's taking her time about paying off the estate debts. There's lots of other bad signs that I don't want to list. My younger sister and I are thinking of hiring an attorney. We want full disclosure of all estate assests and debts paid. We also want the history of withdrawals and checks written to date. Getting an attorney will probably end our relationship with my older sister and family. She's that pissed off at us already. Advice????? |
|
Just tell older sister that you have heard "too many nightmare stories" about families getting audited and hit for estate taxes (and "massive" penalties) because the estates were not accounted for correctly, and that you and your younger sister have agreed, since your older sister is putting "so much time and effort" into her role as executor, that you've found and will pay for an estate tax specialist CPA who will audit the estate and make sure all the taxes are properly calculated. Tell her you figure it can be your part in making sure everyone is protected from the IRS since she's already putting in so much. ETA: A lot of people who think they can get away with ripping off family members suddenly come clean when Uncle Sam comes a knockin. If she balks, tell her you are really nervous because were really worried about this so you called the IRS to check, and they asked a bunch of information, and it was only after you hung up that you realized that the guy was probing so he could perform a full audit and you think you gave him too much information and said somethin like "he asked about CDs, and I told him I was pretty sure there were 7, but you said there were only 4 and he said the tax audit would finalize whether there were 4 or 7 or 87. he was pretty scary, so I'm worried about us all getting audited. It was scary! He said they'd do this thing called a lifestyle audit where they check our assets against our incomes, and that people go to jail for fraud! Just let me pay for the CPA so we don't go to jail!" |
|
Quoted:
Just tell older sister that you have heard "too many nightmare stories" about families getting audited and hit for estate taxes (and "massive" penalties) because the estates were not accounted for correctly, and that you and your younger sister have agreed, since your older sister is putting "so much time and effort" into her role as executor, that you've found and will pay for an estate tax specialist CPA who will audit the estate and make sure all the taxes are properly calculated. Tell her you figure it can be your part in making sure everyone is protected from the IRS since she's already putting in so much. ETA: A lot of people who think they can get away with ripping off family members suddenly come clean when Uncle Sam comes a knockin. this! as executor ths IRS wil nail her ass first 
|
|
Quoted:
Just tell older sister that you have heard "too many nightmare stories" about families getting audited and hit for estate taxes (and "massive" penalties) because the estates were not accounted for correctly, and that you and your younger sister have agreed, since your older sister is putting "so much time and effort" into her role as executor, that you've found and will pay for an estate tax specialist CPA who will audit the estate and make sure all the taxes are properly calculated. Tell her you figure it can be your part in making sure everyone is protected from the IRS since she's already putting in so much. ETA: A lot of people who think they can get away with ripping off family members suddenly come clean when Uncle Sam comes a knockin. I like that. |
|
Quoted: Nothing brings out greed like a death in the family. Good luck. EDIT: Not meant towards you OP, but to the sister hiding info and assets. I lucked out when my father passed in regards to handling the estate. Both my siblings nominated me to handle all the affairs. Didn't worry about a thing, didn't ask any questions other than "is there anything we can do to help". With all the stress such a thing brings, I am always amazed to read the horror stories that others talk about. |
|
Get a lawyer and tell him that he is there to assist her will the accounting and filings before the Court as the COurt will want to know every assets and where its going etc so they can apply death taxes and the lawyer will be able to best assist here in minimizing the tax implications-
He is there to help her- There is a way to account for it, the taxes and follow the will- slow paying the debts is not one of them. Has she placed debt notices in the newspaper yet? ALl the paper money/bank/CD's must be accounted for no matter what- there may really only be 4 CD- the other 3 went to make up the 95K the other sister got so maybe nothing is really wrong its just odd- get me? If she resist then take it out of her hands in the courtroom- She is either over her head or trying to pull a fast one- THe other sister- If she pissed away estate money (the 95K) on stuff that did not benefit the estate or your mom- In other words she spent in on herself then her share of the money left by the will can be reduced or eliminated If she doesn't want the help you offer then tough- unless she is open with everything then your going to open it yourself- If she makes something out of it and gets mad tough titty- You have lost much and don't whine and say you will be losing a sister- Ya may not have one like you think you do anyway right now if she does trust you t show you the books and what is going on. |
|
There is no "estate tax" or "death tax" for decedents dying in 2010. That could backfire on you. Your claim would have to relate to income tax payable by the decedent or decedent's estate/trust. Where there is smoke there is fire. You have already described many classic indicators of trouble. Further, the answers to your questions are going to be state specific. You can't rely on advice you get here. For instance, whether the executor has a duty to keep beneficiaries reasonably informed, and provide copies of documents, will be different in each state. In California, an executor has a legally imposed and enforceable duty to keep beneficiaries informed of administration, and to provide copies of operative documents. In your state, it is likely the same, but possibly different. What the will or trust says about not disclosing may not be valid. Find a reputable estate planning/litigation attorney and call them. Do not just call any attorney you find. This is a specialized area of the law. Most decent attorneys will talk for a few minutes at little to no charge. If you require assistance, that will be a different matter. Be considerate, have your questions together before you call. This kind of story is a cliche for a reason. It happens commonly. Often, one sibling will convince themselves that they deserve more because they did more things for a parent, or because they have more children, a bad husband, bad kids, etc. Never underestimate the power of greed. Best, Sven ETA: Make sure whoever you hire represents you. If they represent sister, as others in this thread have suggested, they will be prevented from disclosing information to you. They will effectively work for her. There is a lot of bad advice above. Get professional help, from someone who is reputable. |
|
Quoted:
My mom passed away a couple weeks ago. My older sister is the executrix of her estate. There's 4 bank accounts, some cd's, and her house. The will says the estate should be divided equally between the three of us. Problem: My older sister gets real defensive and pissed off when me and my younger sister ask her to show us the assets and bills that have to be paid. We have no idea who might be a beneficiary, how much money there is, or where the money may have gone. Problem: theres a checking account with my older sisters name on the checks. (my mom gave her Power of Attorney a few years ago and let her pay the bills out of this checking account). We think she's transferred about $95K into that account. Problem: my younger sister swears there were 7 cd's, and the executrix says there are only 4. Problem: she's taking her time about paying off the estate debts. There's lots of other bad signs that I don't want to list. My younger sister and I are thinking of hiring an attorney. We want full disclosure of all estate assests and debts paid. We also want the history of withdrawals and checks written to date. Getting an attorney will probably end our relationship with my older sister and family. She's that pissed off at us already. Advice????? Sounds like the relationship isn't worth saving. I vote for 'send an attorney'. |
|
Quoted:
Just tell older sister that you have heard "too many nightmare stories" about families getting audited and hit for estate taxes (and "massive" penalties) because the estates were not accounted for correctly, and that you and your younger sister have agreed, since your older sister is putting "so much time and effort" into her role as executor, that you've found and will pay for an estate tax specialist CPA who will audit the estate and make sure all the taxes are properly calculated. Tell her you figure it can be your part in making sure everyone is protected from the IRS since she's already putting in so much. ETA: A lot of people who think they can get away with ripping off family members suddenly come clean when Uncle Sam comes a knockin. If she balks, tell her you are really nervous because were really worried about this so you called the IRS to check, and they asked a bunch of information, and it was only after you hung up that you realized that the guy was probing so he could perform a full audit and you think you gave him too much information and said somethin like "he asked about CDs, and I told him I was pretty sure there were 7, but you said there were only 4 and he said the tax audit would finalize whether there were 4 or 7 or 87. he was pretty scary, so I'm worried about us all getting audited. It was scary! He said they'd do this thing called a lifestyle audit where they check our assets against our incomes, and that people go to jail for fraud! Just let me pay for the CPA so we don't go to jail!" Good stuff
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is no "estate tax" or "death tax" for decedents dying in 2010. [/div] Some individual states (CT is one) have an estate tax, depending on the size of the estate. Correct. And talking to our lawyer just a few months ago when we had our wills redone he postulated that this error the Feds made about 2010 being "death tax free" may be retroactively rolled back. The Feds realized how much money has slipped through their fingers (i.e. Steinbrenner as an example). He said he would be shocked if in 2011 if the Obama admin doesnt try to put in something to retroactively get that money back. It may not happen but I would not put anything past them. |
|
I was the Executor of my mother's estate. Everything should be very open. Perhaps you could point out to your sister that transparency protects her as well. Regardless, she shouldn't be so evasive. Avoid the lawyer if possible. She might just be disorganized and be a little embarassed about it. |
|
I've been an executor on a few estates and cheating on them is a crime just like anything else. Fraud, stealing, embezzlement, etc.
I always gave a full accounting to the survivors/beneficiaries and sat down with them to explain it if they were close by. If far away, I mailed them an accounting of everything. Any executor who balks at this should be viewed as suspicious IMHO. Your sister should WILLINGLY show you the accounting, etc. Maybe some of the attorneys here could offer more advice on what you can do to make sure she doesn't cheat. I might even consider calling the prosecutors office in your area and tell them your problems. If she is possibly stealing alot of money, the prosecutor might be interested but I have never had any experience with that. It certainly wouldn't hurt to call though. That's one of the reasons we have prosecutors IMHO. Heck, you could even go into your local PD and ask to talk to a detective. It certainly wouldn't hurt. (That's the first thing I would do.......go talk to a detective who deals with fraud, etc.) Aimless..........where are you(?).......please chime in. ETA: The joint account she had signature authority over has to be accounted for and disclosed also. |
|
first thing is the POA died with Mom unless is was a Durable POA. second thing is to ask why you werent made Executor ? any chance there are 2 sides to this story and the sister is following the wishes of the deceased? maybe she is the "good" child and the others were cut out by design. It does happen.  |
|
We may run into this soon in my family. The good news is all assets would go to my mother instead since they are married now. There is no will in place. We are not wealthy by any means but my dad's physcial belongs are worth some coin. I want to make sure his music collection does not get sold. The vinyl is worth a good bit but for me it's the heart of the matter. He spent 40 plus years building that collection and I want to keep it growing. Our issue is my dead beat younger step sister. She's never really been a part of the family but that is another story. We tolerate her because of the grandkids but she's more then once slapped the families hand away when we have tried to be there for her. But when my dad goes I know she will be first in line with her hand out. My dad doesn't want to give her anything but I think we have settled on giving something to her kids. Bottom line man you have got to decide if it's worth ruining a relationship like that. Sometimes it's unavoidable. Personally if you were promised something and you suspect funny business I would hire a lawyer. It's within your rights. Good luck. |
|
Quoted:
first thing is the POA died with Mom unless is was a Durable POA. second thing is to ask why you werent made Executor ? any chance there are 2 sides to this story and the sister is following the wishes of the deceased? maybe she is the "good" child and the others were cut out by design. It does happen. I take people at their words unless something else comes up to disprove what they are saying. That said, a copy of the will would clear up any of those questions and the beneficiaries should be able to see it. I ALWAYS showed the beneficiaries the will. (If they wanted a copy I made one and charged the estate with the expense of copying.) One time I did make a mathematical mistake and the beneficiarie's attorney pointed it out..........I said "sorry" and changed his inheritance immediately. No biggie......everyone was happy. Either way, the sister has a duty to provide an accounting for expenses, account balances, asset values, etc. That is the job of an executor. She took on the responsibility and now it is time for her to do her job OUT IN THE OPEN. |
|
Quoted:
I've been an executor on a few estates and cheating on them is a crime just like anything else. Fraud, stealing, embezzlement, etc. This pretty much sums it up, perhaps the OP could tactfully point out that to go against their mothers wishes (in a legal/binding document) is unlawful, and that the executor needs to abide by the document, any deviation could lead to "legal" issues. Unfortunately most of us have encountered this in one way shape or form, I had a second cousin who pulled this crap and got caught, by his firm (he was a financial planner) doing some "dirty accounting" and the fact he screwed over his family came to light after that. Greed is a bad bad thing! |
|
Quoted:
If a relationship is commensurate on permission to commit financial rape, then that relationship's pretty much worthless as it stands, no? That's right..........and this reminds me that, one time, I noticed some unexplained checks written by the beneficiary who had signature authority over the deceased's account in the final couple of years prior to death. I reduced her inheritance by that much. She was pissed but TOO BAD. Her attorney said to "drop it" and live with her "errors". ("Errors" my a**!!  )
She was lucky there was enough money in other accounts to make up for her so-called "errors"........or I would have contacted a prosecutor in a heartbeat........and her attorney knew it. ETA: She was scum IMHO and when I showed her attorney the accounting.....revealing questionable checks and unaccounted for withdrawals........he frowned and told her to drop her complaining immediately. She followed his advice. (Over $100K in questionable stuff........SCUMBAG!! For that much money, I would have called a prosecutor and accused her of embezzlement if there wasn't enough money elsewhere to make up for the difference.) In the OP's situation though, the mother should have appointed all the siblings as joint executors. That's what I tell all old people to do unless they make an unrelated, non-beneficiary, the executor. In all the cases where I was an executor I was an unrelated, non-beneficiary. |
|
Lawyer, now...
Call your local bar association and ask for 10 referrals to the BEST lawyers in the area that handle this type of law and get an appointment with every one of them. Most preliminary sessions are free anyway. Pick the best one out of that bunch. THE REASON TO SEE 10 OF THEM is so that when anyone else involved in your case tries to lawyer-up, they cannot get ANY of the Top 10 because you have already spoken with them all and they have privileged information and won't be able to work the case for anyone else. ETA: Very few people commit fraud because they're trying to STEAL from others...They commit fraud because they feel that they are OWED something extra. If you have suspicions about the executor/executrix, get a lawyer to review everything. |
|
Quoted:
If you feel you must get an attorney but be aware you will destroy your family bonds in that process. If money means more than blood to you, go for the dollars, and realize your parents did a poor job of raising that brood. Good luck. Bullshit, YOU didn't violate the trust, someone else did. |
|
When my grandmother passed away in 1997, the closest term to what happened would be wolves at the dinner table. The infighting between my aunts was embarrasing and absolutely disgusting. My mother was the executor of the estate and she kept everything open to viewing by all. She tried her hardest to make it fair and let any of her sisters or her brother see the documents at any time. The end result was that there was quite the fracturing in the family after that.
Most people worship the dollar more than value family. My own father is that way. People like that, you can't trust and you are better off without. Sure, money is necessary but to make it the number one goal in life is a mistake. You miss out on the true meaning of what life is all about. |
|
Getting an attorney will probably end our relationship with my older sister and family. She's that pissed off at us already. Advice????? If she's screwing you the way you think she is, then a relationship with her doesn't seem to be worth maintaining. Lawyer up. |
|
Every state has a probate act. It states what the duties of the exec. are, what legal notices, and what information the exec. has to give you.
I suspect that OH law probably requires the exec. to provide an inventory of estate assets shortly after the estate is opened. Look up the law, and show it to her. If she has a lawyer that opened the estate talk to him and see if he will put her straight. An honest probate lawyer's worst nightmare is an exec. that doesn't listen to the rules and does it their own way. If she isn't doing things right he may set her straight. Last resort hire your own lawyer and get her into court for the judge to set her straight. It's your money. You have a right to know what is going own in the full light of day. You need to make it clear that anything less than that is not going to be tolerated. |
|
Working on investment accoutns I have seen case where the executor/trix has gone to jail for what amounted to stealing from an estate.
You have to decide if you are going to let her rob the estate blind or not- either way I'm sure the relationship will be destroyed.... 
|
|
This is the kind of thing where the person in charge is hiding stuff because of crooked stuff going on or possibly everything is on the up and up but they are just pissed because family are asking nasty questions.
If I was in charge I would be careful to be completely open and transparent to head off any suspicion or nasty feelings. As someone else said bringing in the attorneys will piss everyone off and cost a ton of money Try to reason stuff out without causing WWIII but face the fact that in these things many times everyone leaves the table in a pissed off manor |
| The OP is already too far down the path for this to be of much help, but having gone through many of these issues with my own parents, my advice to anyone with older parents is to speak with an Elder Law attorney. Their specialty is dealing with most of the financial and legal issues you'll run into with situations like this, and preparing you and your parents ahead of time. A good source is Elder Law Answers, which will help you locate such an attorney in your area. Even people who arent wealthy can benefit greatly from speaking with one, if done in time. |
|
Quoted:
My mom passed away a couple weeks ago. My older sister is the executrix of her estate. There's 4 bank accounts, some cd's, and her house. The will says the estate should be divided equally between the three of us. Problem: My older sister gets real defensive and pissed off when me and my younger sister ask her to show us the assets and bills that have to be paid. We have no idea who might be a beneficiary, how much money there is, or where the money may have gone. Problem: theres a checking account with my older sisters name on the checks. (my mom gave her Power of Attorney a few years ago and let her pay the bills out of this checking account). We think she's transferred about $95K into that account. Problem: my younger sister swears there were 7 cd's, and the executrix says there are only 4. Problem: she's taking her time about paying off the estate debts. There's lots of other bad signs that I don't want to list. My younger sister and I are thinking of hiring an attorney. We want full disclosure of all estate assests and debts paid. We also want the history of withdrawals and checks written to date. Getting an attorney will probably end our relationship with my older sister and family. She's that pissed off at us already. Advice????? You're getting screwed. Personally, I wouldn't worry about ruining the relationship with your older sister...she decided that already when she started stealing from you and your younger sister. To make matters worse it's during a time when you should be grieving the death of your Mom. That's heartless if you ask me. Lawyer up friend, but be careful about those fees (probably 20-33%). |
|
Quoted:
My mom passed away a couple weeks ago. My older sister is the executrix of her estate. There's 4 bank accounts, some cd's, and her house. The will says the estate should be divided equally between the three of us. Problem: My older sister gets real defensive and pissed off when me and my younger sister ask her to show us the assets and bills that have to be paid. We have no idea who might be a beneficiary, how much money there is, or where the money may have gone. Problem: theres a checking account with my older sisters name on the checks. (my mom gave her Power of Attorney a few years ago and let her pay the bills out of this checking account). We think she's transferred about $95K into that account. Problem: my younger sister swears there were 7 cd's, and the executrix says there are only 4. Problem: she's taking her time about paying off the estate debts. There's lots of other bad signs that I don't want to list. My younger sister and I are thinking of hiring an attorney. We want full disclosure of all estate assests and debts paid. We also want the history of withdrawals and checks written to date. Getting an attorney will probably end our relationship with my older sister and family. She's that pissed off at us already. Advice????? She is hiding something, hence the reason she is pissed. Honor your mother's wishes... hire an attorney. |
|
Quoted:
Just tell older sister that you have heard "too many nightmare stories" about families getting audited and hit for estate taxes (and "massive" penalties) because the estates were not accounted for correctly, and that you and your younger sister have agreed, since your older sister is putting "so much time and effort" into her role as executor, that you've found and will pay for an estate tax specialist CPA who will audit the estate and make sure all the taxes are properly calculated. Tell her you figure it can be your part in making sure everyone is protected from the IRS since she's already putting in so much. ETA: A lot of people who think they can get away with ripping off family members suddenly come clean when Uncle Sam comes a knockin. If she balks, tell her you are really nervous because were really worried about this so you called the IRS to check, and they asked a bunch of information, and it was only after you hung up that you realized that the guy was probing so he could perform a full audit and you think you gave him too much information and said somethin like "he asked about CDs, and I told him I was pretty sure there were 7, but you said there were only 4 and he said the tax audit would finalize whether there were 4 or 7 or 87. he was pretty scary, so I'm worried about us all getting audited. It was scary! He said they'd do this thing called a lifestyle audit where they check our assets against our incomes, and that people go to jail for fraud! Just let me pay for the CPA so we don't go to jail!" best answer right here. |
|
If she's already that pissed about you guys just wanting to know the information.. there is a problem. Hire a lawyer... sounds like the relationship is done anyway. If my siblings did this, then I would have no desire to hear their name ever again. Blood or not. It's not even about the money, it's about principle. Always trust your gut. If you think she may be doing shady shit... she is! |