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Posted: 4/20/2002 5:16:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 5:19:37 PM EDT
why not have racial profiling?
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:31:07 PM EDT
Listen, Russia is very, well, Russian, and not so cosmopolitan. Unemployment is high and poverty the norm. When you have people coming from other former republics (usually without legal authority to do so) looking for work, and from abroad to take advantage of former communist era universities set up to educate the Marxist world, it's not entirely unexpected. When the Russians become politically correct, and decide that they want to become "diverse" as well, then I will know that the end is near...
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:33:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:40:12 PM EDT
Ehehehehe
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:45:37 PM EDT
And now we have the expert on Russia, shooter69, who can answer all our questions about Moscow! Ha Ha! Ever been there? Something to consider about "Russian poverty" is that everyone there owns their own home. The State owned everything until 1991, but after that everyone was gifted the home listed as the address on their ID. You are a slave to your bank,auto loan, and credit cards, but Russians are poor? Go there sir! You can see for yourself that you have believed lies.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:47:41 PM EDT
Yes, I have been to the Rossiyskaya Federatsiya, though only Moscow and St. Pete. I have been wanting to go back for some time, but mainly to fly in a MIG and perhaps drive a T-80. Whenever I have a month and $30k to blow (may be more or less now, I haven't checked the price recently)... Listen, not to be mean or hurt anyone's feelings, but Russia is a disaster. I wish them the best and always speak well for our own relationship with them and their future progress (as I consider them to be our natural allies in the world today), but they have ENOURMOUS OBSTACLES to overcome. -- More Deaths than births (which academicians attribute to people's opinions as to their prospects, and not a western decadence). Life expectancy differs with ours by a decade, and infant mortality is something like three times worse -- Brain drain (and not to mention the emigration of so many ambitious people, which i realized some time back when Russian emigres starting work at my local diner and video rental store). -- An explosion in TB and other infectious diseases. The health system in general is a joke by western standards. I liked how when the question of Russia's health system was put to Yeltsin in an interview for American television, he just copped to it and threw it back to the reporter, asking "why don't you help us?" (Anecdotally, the wife of a friend was a Doctor in Novgorod and wisely decided to [b]get the fuck out[/b]. She now does the books for their family business.) -- An official poverty rate (by their modest standards) of 40% (I would consider it to be worse). I witnessed people selling their precious personal belongings on the street, out of economic desperation. The collpase of the S.U. combined with the inability to completely transform to a western market-oriented democracy has been devastating for the population, as I am sure you well know. -- Unemployment three times as bad. -- Real purchasing power a small fraction of what we enjoy (1/5th). -- Out of control inflation (twenty times what we have), with wage earners always a step behind, often with their meager salaries going unpaid, even from the government. (Leaving far to many people in the black economy, for simple survival, and not simple greed as is usually the case in the west.) -- Completely dependent on exports of raw materials, almost to the point of being as bad as Saudia Arabia.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:49:41 PM EDT
-- Worse environmental problems than we can imagine despite having no money to deal with them. -- A federal budget about 2% of ours in $ terms. Foreign debts of four times that amount (not insurmountable though). -- Still decrepit transportation system (to this day). One of the most dangerous places to travel. -- A military which continues to deteriorate (especially the navy, considered less important now) with the lack of funding, [u]forcing them[/u] to sell to the world's rogue states (Islamaniac or just plain old commie/authoritarian dictatorships). -- And the former Soviet public housing (given to the masses) that you spoke of so glowingly? Frankly you couldn't pay me to live there. I visited two apartments in Moscow, and I can only say in building them they would not have been considered adequate by the standards of American public housing (which thankfully we have given up on). -- The usual corruption issues (again as bad as Saudia Arabia, and that's bad!) and the vast sums kept in foreign banks (apropos of all banana republics). -- Other less savory points that I would not make in polite company. It is a substantially more agricultural economy than ours, although more industrial as well (despite their industry being decrepit and technologically backward). Many in the current administration pinned their hopes on following the Argentine economic model. You can imagine what they are thinking today. I could list some points that I consider to be optimistic for the future (Pluses... highly educated and scientifically sophisticated population. High growth rate, though mainly related to imbalances with their western neighbors, like all non-first world countries), but in light of your proud defense, will let that opportunity go to you, should you care to continue the conversation.
You can see for yourself that you have believed lies.
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BTW you write like many Russians speak English. Russian?
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:22:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC: why not have racial profiling?
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Because racial profiling and the truth can sometimes cost votes.[BD]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:37:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 11:42:44 PM EDT by slt223]
Originally Posted By grimshaw: You are a slave to your bank,auto loan, and credit cards, but Russians are poor? Go there sir! You can see for yourself that you have believed lies.
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I didn't realize these things necessarily made people poor. Could you please continue to explain to me how post 1991 Russia is superior to the United States? Edited to eliminate the name calling. Your post royally pissed me off. For the love of Christ, please counter shooter69's rebuttal if you can...I'd love to read it.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 10:20:19 AM EDT
Actually shooter may be correct on a point or two if you consider the time frame of his information. Its almost ten years old. The inflation rate you are describing is from 1992. There was a second economic stutter in 1998, but that is 5 years ago, when Yeltsin was President. Compare our economy now to five years ago under Clinton, when things were booming. The medical system there has differances and flaws, but you have a choice between state doctors and doctors of your own choosing and payment. To the people of America that don't have health insurance it would seem like a great deal. Another thing that I liked is the access to drugs. You don't need a prescription to get penicillin or any other non-narcotics. Some things you don't need an 8 year degree to know you need. The Russian transportation system has some flaws. The subways compared to ours are fabulous! I guess the thing that amazed me was that if you stood out by the road and pointed at the ground it would only be three or four cars go by before somebody would pick you up. People are A LOT friendlier there! Once I hitchhiked in Michigan and counted 300 cars go by before I gave up and started walking. I really didn't see the same economic situation you did shooter. I think you are reading this off some fact sheet. I used to live in Harbor Springs, Michigan where all the rich people who are second generation inbred trust funders live in a $7 million dollar house on a gravel road. They hire cleaning help at $7 an hour and pay 412 an hour for carpenters. Thats why you have the beautiful Pellston , Michigan just a trickle down the road where everybody lives in 30 year old trailers. It was amazing to see how much the Russian people had access to, in comparison to American serfs.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 11:34:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2002 11:36:23 AM EDT by Benjamin0001]
During the INF (Intermediate Nuclear Freeze) treaty my relative worked on one of the Observation teams. Well one of his guys broke their leg and they took him to a russian hospital. They walked into the reception area carrying their friend and there was a nurse and there was a rat crawling up the pipe behind her against the wall. They announced themselves as Americans and she replied, "YOU ARE AMERICANS, THEN WE USE A CLEAN NEEDLE." Now then... You tell me. They ended up airlifting this guy to Rhamstien (Spelling?). Ben
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 12:36:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Scarecrow:
Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC: why not have racial profiling?
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Because racial profiling and the truth can sometimes cost votes.[BD]
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costs for the liberals, and the anti gunnners
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 1:35:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By grimshaw: The inflation rate you are describing is from 1992. There was a second economic stutter in 1998, but that is 5 years ago, when Yeltsin was President. Compare our economy now to five years ago under Clinton, when things were booming.
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And there will probably be another Russian devaluation in another few years. We've had "high" inflation exactly once in living memory, thanks to our second-worst President (Jimmy Carter), and it peaked out in the teens somewhere. Other than that, the devaluation of our currency back in 1965, when we went off the gold/silver standard, was about it. (I don't know what the numbers were on that; perhaps someone who was alive back then could comment?)
The medical system there has differances and flaws, but you have a choice between state doctors and doctors of your own choosing and payment. To the people of America that don't have health insurance it would seem like a great deal.
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Not really. If the uninsured American were instead a typical Russian, the choice is exactly the same: a state doctor in crappy facilities whom they can (barely) afford, or a somewhat decent physician (not by American standards) in a somewhat decent clinic (barely, by American standards) who is so far out of their price range that they'd have to sell a kidney to see him.
Another thing that I liked is the access to drugs. You don't need a prescription to get penicillin or any other non-narcotics. Some things you don't need an 8 year degree to know you need.
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And some things you don't need an "8-year" degree to have a dangerously oversimplified view of what you think you might need.
The Russian transportation system has some flaws. The subways compared to ours are fabulous! I guess the thing that amazed me was that if you stood out by the road and pointed at the ground it would only be three or four cars go by before somebody would pick you up. People are A LOT friendlier there! Once I hitchhiked in Michigan and counted 300 cars go by before I gave up and started walking.
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Uh . . . they're operating as taxis (in NYC, you'd call them "gypsy taxis") so that they can afford to pay their bills for those extremely expensive cars. You're supposed to give them some money for the ride. Here we don't have to do that. Another hint: the scantily-clad women hanging around streetcorners who ask you if you'd like to go to a party aren't just being friendly, either. [:D]
I really didn't see the same economic situation you did shooter. I think you are reading this off some fact sheet. I used to live in Harbor Springs, Michigan where all the rich people who are second generation inbred trust funders live in a $7 million dollar house on a gravel road. They hire cleaning help at $7 an hour and pay 412 an hour for carpenters.
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(I'll assume that was "$12", not "$412", for a carpenter.) There are inequalities in wealth over in the New Russia as well. That's why some people drive around in a convoy of chaufeurred limousines (one for them and a bodyguard and a driver, two or three more for the other bodyguards they also need). Things are better there than they were four years ago, sure, but they're nowhere nearly up to our standards in anything. That's why Russians are still fleeing to the West.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 10:14:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By grimshaw: Actually shooter may be correct on a point or two if you consider the time frame of his information. Its almost ten years old. The inflation rate you are describing is from 1992.
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The facts I presented were based on 2000-2001. Although the 2000 inflation rate (from the Russian Govt.) was actually [u]only[/u] 20%. Glad they have gotten that down to a more managable level from triple digits. [rolleyes] I think at the worst we've had about half of that. I love these banana republics where people's savings are wiped out by inflationary pressures beyond their control. What a marvelous standard of living. I left out a lot of other negative events, like the fact that the modern day oligarchs stole half of the country.
The medical system there has differances and flaws, but you have a choice between state doctors and doctors of your own choosing and payment. To the people of America that don't have health insurance it would seem like a great deal. Another thing that I liked is the access to drugs. You don't need a prescription to get penicillin or any other non-narcotics. Some things you don't need an 8 year degree to know you need.
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Gee, great, just like our southern neighbor, another "success story" people are going through hell to flee from. Many Mexicans I'm sure would take issue with my comments and proudly defend their country as well. Hey, says grimshaw, but you can get penicillin o-t-c! (Living there you'd probably need it...) The truth is that the free medical care you get there is worth about what you pay for it. The Russians (like the Cubans who brag on their free medical care, which amounts to little more than a tongue depressor, band-aid and an aspirin) cannot afford the latest technology or drugs. All of their elite go to foreign clinics and hospitals just like Yeltsin and Castro. The sixty year old penicillin you mentioned sounds more like their cup of tea. Here at least the poorest have medicaid (the elderly medicare), and even low-cost health clinics. Unfortunately the working class does have a problem with access to reasonably priced health care (I will not deny the undeniable like some do for the sake of arguement) but emergency rooms cannot by law turn you away if you cannot afford to pay, and have access to equipment and medicine Russians do not have in their state run hospitals.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 10:17:33 AM EDT
The Russian transportation system has some flaws. The subways compared to ours are fabulous!
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If you consider hurtling to the earth in a flaming steel deathtrap, or taking a road that just stops and starts up again twenty miles later to be flaws. [rolleyes] At least their phone system got upgraded (with western help). The subway was impressive but I was solicited frequently and found that aspect of it worse than NYC.
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed:
Originally Posted By grimshaw: I guess the thing that amazed me was that if you stood out by the road and pointed at the ground it would only be three or four cars go by before somebody would pick you up. People are A LOT friendlier there! Once I hitchhiked in Michigan and counted 300 cars go by before I gave up and started walking.
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Uh . . . they're operating as taxis (in NYC, you'd call them "gypsy taxis") so that they can afford to pay their bills for those extremely expensive cars. You're supposed to give them some money for the ride. Here we don't have to do that.
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ROFLMAO! Thanks for saving me the trouble of explaining that to Al... and for the laugh.
I really didn't see the same economic situation you did shooter.
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Well, people see what they want to see. The soviet buildings and housing are about the ugliest things you will ever see. I hope they tear it all down and build only aesthetically pleasing architecture (of a Russian nature). Obviously you are very proud of Russia so I will call it a day. I don't want it to seem like I am a Russia basher. I like Russia and the Russians I've met.
It was amazing to see how much the Russian people had access to, in comparison to American serfs.
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Which begs the question... why not go back and live "the good life." *LOL*
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