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Posted: 4/20/2002 6:31:39 AM EDT
The IDF says 'dozens', the Palestinians claim more than 500. What do you think the final, UN-investigated, death count will be? I say less than 500! Almost all Palestinian gunmen. But then I'm always accused of being a pessimist! Here's the poll! Eric The(Galloping)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 6:58:08 AM EDT
My choice isn't in your poll: Not Enough !!!! Jay [img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:04:53 AM EDT
AZCOP... you beat me to it... Eric, you need a 'not enough' option... [;)]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:10:45 AM EDT
Damnit Y'all beat me to it! One more vote for "NOT ENOUGH"
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:10:57 AM EDT
Now, boyz, you are just being brutal! I can't imagine that Israel is offering those slugs holed up at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem the option of 'eternal exile.' You can just imagine how long their exile would last! But to Israel's credit (and possible undoing) they are actually arresting the leaders of Hamas and the other terrorist groups. At least, however, those punks are off the street for the time being! Eric The(I'dSayTheyDied'ResistingArrest')Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:08:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:12:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AZCOP: My choice isn't in your poll: Not Enough !!!! Jay [img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img]
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Damn I just have to get in on these things EARLIER!!
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:14:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 8:20:22 AM EDT by 9divdoc]
There is only a couple of ways this will end. Give the terrorists what they want. A new nation inside a sovereign nation...(then wait for the new mexico to demand US land) Or destroy the PLO once and for all...drive the Palestinian infrastructure out of the land..attenuate them..take their numbers down so low that they are no longer a threat The only other choice would be to let the Euro Union or UN occupy Israel and monitor the peace...of course this will not work to well as the left leaning third way favors the terrorists..and will work to destroy Israel from within.imo The same leftist journalistic elite that lies to take our guns...hates Israel favors the terrorists..and wants them terrror to increase...the leftist press also hates the US with venom..
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:22:18 AM EDT
We will never know. The Israelis are masters at cover up and lies. Remember the cover up on the Libety? It took 30 years for the truth to come out. Of course some people sill don't want to believe it because it doesn't fit into their pro-Israel agenda. No need for you pro-Israel prople to flame back on this. I'm turning of my computer to go out to the shooting range for a while. I want to zero my new match M1A.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:35:38 AM EDT
Subject: Very Disturbing CNN REPORTER STORY Friends, I am attending the Israel Venture Association annual conference and was introduced to Andrea Koppel from CNN as we were waiting for Prime Minister Sharon and Secretary of State Powell to finish their discussion Sunday evening at our hotel. While we were chatting, an American-born Israeli joined us to tell Andrea about his perception of media distortion in that the press that stresses moral equivalence between Israeli civilian deaths caused by Palestinian terror and Palestinian civilian deaths caused by Israeli military actions. He argued that Israel has tried to engage in a peace process since Camp David and has been double crossed over and over by the Palestinian Authority. Further, he argued the deaths caused by Palestinians are intentional, whereas the deaths caused by Israel are mostly the tragic, unintentional results caused by Israel trying to defend itself. Andrea replied, "So when Israeli soldiers slaughter civilians in Jenin, that is not equivalent?" Israeli, "What are your sources, were you in Jenin, how do you know there was a slaughter?" Andrea, "I just spoke with my colleagues who were there and they told me of the slaughter." Israeli, "Did they see the shooting, the bodies?" Andrea, "Palestinians told us about the slaughter." Israeli, "And you believe them without evidence; they lie and distort facts." Andrea, "Oh, so they are all just lying?" Israeli became emotional in describing that his children are afraid, his friends have been murdered, and if this goes on, "We could lose our lives or we could lose our country." Andrea, "Yes, you will lose your country." At this point, I interrupted the two of them and asked, "Did I hear you correctly that you believe the current crisis will lead to the destruction of the State of Israel?" Andrea, "Yes I believe we are now seeing the beginning of the end of Israel." Needless to say, I was stunned to hear a senior CNN correspondent express this extreme "worldview". It was very disturbing for obvious reasons, and I was particularly upset by her extraordinary geo-political conclusion that the State of Israel is bound for destruction. I asked her how she came this conclusion - what was her background scholarship in Middle East history or military geo-strategy? Andrea, "Well you know, I took a course on the Middle East when I was at Middlebury College and our professor assigned us 5 books on the history of the conflict. So I first read a book written by an Israeli and I thought all the land belongs to the Israelis. Then I read another book by a Palestinian and thought all the land belongs to the Palestinians. There are many points of view, and it is so complex." Her background scholarship and intellectual depth on the subject duly noted, I turned to consider what to do next. 1) Complain to CNN management? 2) Expose this to other press (say Fox or 60 Minutes, letters to the editor?) 3) Try to educate her towards a more realistic understanding of Israel's geo-political position? 4) Tell the Israeli Foreign Ministry and let them deal with it? 5) Do nothing? (I hope not) I don't know what do to about this, but I thought you may have the right suggestion. Feel free to forward this to others. David J. Blumberg david@blumbergcapital.com
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:37:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: The IDF says 'dozens', the Palestinians claim more than 500. What do you think the final, UN-investigated, death count will be?
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UN Death Count: Exagerrated. Real Dath Count: less than 500, mostly armed men.
I say less than 500! Almost all Palestinian gunmen. But then I'm always accused of being a pessimist! Here's the poll! Eric The(Galloping)Hun[>]:)]
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Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:41:05 AM EDT
I vote #6, tell the Mossad.
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: Subject: Very Disturbing CNN REPORTER STORY Friends, I am attending the Israel Venture Association annual conference and was introduced to Andrea Koppel from CNN as we were waiting for Prime Minister Sharon and Secretary of State Powell to finish their discussion Sunday evening at our hotel. While we were chatting, an American-born Israeli joined us to tell Andrea about his perception of media distortion in that the press that stresses moral equivalence between Israeli civilian deaths caused by Palestinian terror and Palestinian civilian deaths caused by Israeli military actions. He argued that Israel has tried to engage in a peace process since Camp David and has been double crossed over and over by the Palestinian Authority. Further, he argued the deaths caused by Palestinians are intentional, whereas the deaths caused by Israel are mostly the tragic, unintentional results caused by Israel trying to defend itself. Andrea replied, "So when Israeli soldiers slaughter civilians in Jenin, that is not equivalent?" Israeli, "What are your sources, were you in Jenin, how do you know there was a slaughter?" Andrea, "I just spoke with my colleagues who were there and they told me of the slaughter." Israeli, "Did they see the shooting, the bodies?" Andrea, "Palestinians told us about the slaughter." Israeli, "And you believe them without evidence; they lie and distort facts." Andrea, "Oh, so they are all just lying?" Israeli became emotional in describing that his children are afraid, his friends have been murdered, and if this goes on, "We could lose our lives or we could lose our country." Andrea, "Yes, you will lose your country." At this point, I interrupted the two of them and asked, "Did I hear you correctly that you believe the current crisis will lead to the destruction of the State of Israel?" Andrea, "Yes I believe we are now seeing the beginning of the end of Israel." Needless to say, I was stunned to hear a senior CNN correspondent express this extreme "worldview". It was very disturbing for obvious reasons, and I was particularly upset by her extraordinary geo-political conclusion that the State of Israel is bound for destruction. I asked her how she came this conclusion - what was her background scholarship in Middle East history or military geo-strategy? Andrea, "Well you know, I took a course on the Middle East when I was at Middlebury College and our professor assigned us 5 books on the history of the conflict. So I first read a book written by an Israeli and I thought all the land belongs to the Israelis. Then I read another book by a Palestinian and thought all the land belongs to the Palestinians. There are many points of view, and it is so complex." Her background scholarship and intellectual depth on the subject duly noted, I turned to consider what to do next. 1) Complain to CNN management? 2) Expose this to other press (say Fox or 60 Minutes, letters to the editor?) 3) Try to educate her towards a more realistic understanding of Israel's geo-political position? 4) Tell the Israeli Foreign Ministry and let them deal with it? 5) Do nothing? (I hope not) I don't know what do to about this, but I thought you may have the right suggestion. Feel free to forward this to others. David J. Blumberg david@blumbergcapital.com
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Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:09:43 AM EDT
AZCOP, Your camaro ICON looks familiar, are you registered on the http://thirdgen.com board?
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:23:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 10:28:21 AM EDT by shooter69]
You know it's strange... these "refugee camps" seem to be fairly substantial and permanent. I don't see any tents on the news, just stone buildings... like the other non-refugee camp towns.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:32:12 AM EDT
Not enough.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:34:56 AM EDT
[img]http://www.minresco.com/jpg/ablast.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 3:20:35 PM EDT
Geez, only 15% here believe the IDF! [:)]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 3:37:24 PM EDT
Actually, 85% believe the "victims" were armed. 15% believe they were innocent. 10% of those actually believe that every last person killed in Jenin was an innocent. 80% believe that < 500 were killed and most were armed, once you add in the 15% that believe < 100 were killed. I voted < 500, because while I trust the IDF to be truthfull, I do not believe they have fully accounted for all the dead. The current numbers are slightly below 100, but could surpass 100, but not by much. So, I go with the more liberal 500 maximum.
Originally Posted By shooter69: Geez, only 15% here believe the IDF! [:)]
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Link Posted: 4/20/2002 3:49:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Flash66: We will never know. The Israelis are masters at cover up and lies. Remember the cover up on the Libety? It took 30 years for the truth to come out. Of course some people sill don't want to believe it because it doesn't fit into their pro-Israel agenda. No need for you pro-Israel prople to flame back on this. I'm turning of my computer to go out to the shooting range for a while. I want to zero my new match M1A.
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How dare you talk about guns in this forum! [:)]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 3:58:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 3:59:28 PM EDT by AZCOP]
Originally Posted By JFP: AZCOP, Your camaro ICON looks familiar, are you registered on the http://thirdgen.com board?
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Nope,,, I just like the icon. Jay [img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 4:03:44 PM EDT
According to ETH: "The IDF says 'dozens'." That would fall under the < 100 category (the < 500 category ostensibly being 101-500). So given multiple choices, only 15% buy what the IDF is selling.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 4:59:30 PM EDT
"The IDF says 'dozens', the Palestinians claim more than 500." With almost any two opposing and very different viewpoints, I'd suggest the true number lies somewhere in between. I vote <500 mostly gunmen. Even with with UN investigation we may never know the truth. So maybe this is a "hope" more than guess. I'm wondering if the families of those Palastinians who fought and died are being compensated with more "Martre money". I don't think they were expecting to pay out so very much. For those innocents who died at Jenin... You have my prayers. May your god except you for the person you were. For those who would have strapped on explosives and marched into a mall.... burn in hell. I'm glad you're dead.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 12:28:37 AM EDT
Chalk up one more "Not enough".
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 4:50:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Flash66: We will never know. The Israelis are masters at cover up and lies. Remember the cover up on the Libety? It took 30 years for the truth to come out. Of course some people sill don't want to believe it because it doesn't fit into their pro-Israel agenda.
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Bullshit! They asked the US command before they shot & were told no US ships were within 100 miles of where the Liberty was. After they realized it was a US ship, they called the US comand back & informed them they may have shot up a US ship [b]the same day[/b]. The Israeli government apologized the very next day and made monetary reparations within a month. There have been ten seperate US investigations into this incident: Navy, DOD and Congressional. Every one came to the same conclusions: The Liberty was where it shouldn't have been, Israel thought it was the Eqyptian ship that had been shelling them the day before and Israel informed the US the same day of the shooting. There has never been a cover up, not even an attempted cover up. 30 years? Wrong by about 29 years, 364 days.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 8:17:49 AM EDT
NormG With all due respect BULLSHIT back to you. The crew of the Liberty disagrees with you big time and has only recently been able to get their story out. I also disagree with you big time. I was on duty in at a National Security Agency Field Station in Europe the day the Liberty was attacked. I saw all the Flash messages from the ship to the command headquarters and to the President. I KNOW (let me repeat that - KNOW)that the ship was sunk intentionaly. Just think about one thing as you are denying the cover up. What would be the remedy if the ship was sunk intentionaly? We would have to cut off aid to Israel and then bomb them back to the stone age. From a political standpoint the US was not willing to do it. The only logical course of action was to say "Sorry about that" to the crewman, accept some bullshit explaination about mistaken identity and hope that it all would blow over. Get real.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 8:23:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SeaDweller: Chalk up one more "Not enough".
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And another!
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 9:52:46 AM EDT
Ten (1) votes for 'Not enough' - so far. Sorry, but I tried to edit the poll to add that choice, but I couldn't get it to edit. Strange that the Hun didn't have that choice available in the first place, eh? Eric The(Peaceful)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 10:37:05 AM EDT
Flash66, how could you being thousands of miles away know exactly what the Israelis were thinking. You couldn't. It was probably an accident since nobody in Israel would be stupid enough to intentionally attack a US Ship. In the heat of battle mistakes will be made. Look at the Canadians a US Pilot blew to bits the other day, the Brits we killed in previous wars, etc...These were qall accidents. Even, the stupid accident that took the life of the Canadians the other day. I don't know what was going through the minds of the Israeli pilots. But, even if they fucked up, there was no malice/intent to attack a US Ship.
Originally Posted By Flash66: NormG With all due respect BULLSHIT back to you. The crew of the Liberty disagrees with you big time and has only recently been able to get their story out. I also disagree with you big time. I was on duty in at a National Security Agency Field Station in Europe the day the Liberty was attacked. I saw all the Flash messages from the ship to the command headquarters and to the President. I KNOW (let me repeat that - KNOW)that the ship was sunk intentionaly. Just think about one thing as you are denying the cover up. What would be the remedy if the ship was sunk intentionaly? We would have to cut off aid to Israel and then bomb them back to the stone age. From a political standpoint the US was not willing to do it. The only logical course of action was to say "Sorry about that" to the crewman, accept some bullshit explaination about mistaken identity and hope that it all would blow over. Get real.
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Link Posted: 4/21/2002 10:55:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2002 10:58:54 AM EDT by kid223]
I say that the number of victims does NOT matter!!! Many innocent victims were killed on both sides and this needs to stop. Even if I get flamed for this, I don't give a damn, I have to say it. The Israelis are NO angels ! ! !They are always in deep shit but It's never their fault..Yeah right! peacefully..... Kid223
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 11:41:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kid223: I have to say it. The Israelis are NO angels ! ! ! Kid223
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When people piss with us, we are not very angelic ourselves. Jay [img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 7:58:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2002 8:07:34 PM EDT by SNorman]
Originally Posted By Flash66: We will never know. The Israelis are masters at cover up and lies. Remember the cover up on the Libety? It took 30 years for the truth to come out. Of course some people sill don't want to believe it because it doesn't fit into their pro-Israel agenda. No need for you pro-Israel prople to flame back on this. I'm turning of my computer to go out to the shooting range for a while. I want to zero my new match M1A.
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Kinda like how we just blew up the Canadians on purpose huh? Edit to add: If we were in a FULL-FLEDGED war with Afganistan, and our country bordered it, and we were fighting for our very existence, and our fighter planes were given the info that no "friendlies" were in the area, there would have been NO Canadians left. It was a tragedy that could have been much worse.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 8:02:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stealth: ..... I'm wondering if the families of those Palastinians who fought and died are being compensated with more "Martre money". I don't think they were expecting to pay out so very much. ....
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And remember, the one who kills himself the most each month gets "Martyr Points"!
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 8:04:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SNorman:
Originally Posted By Stealth: ..... I'm wondering if the families of those Palastinians who fought and died are being compensated with more "Martre money". I don't think they were expecting to pay out so very much. ....
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And remember, the one who kills himself the most each month gets "Martyr Points"!
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Hmmmm, frequent martre miles. I wonder if they can trade those in for extra virgins?
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 8:32:57 PM EDT
One more for "not enough". As for the Liberty, I don't really care. I was in third grade. Try something a little more recent, and that has not been investigated so much with negative results. As for the survivors, if they disagree, maybe they shoudn't have taken the reparation money.
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