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Posted: 4/16/2002 10:12:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 10:28:04 PM EDT
Stokes, you did real good until you said " I believe there are a few basic requirement God has before I will receive his Grace." As soon as you put a requirement on grace, it ain't grace any more. Church is where you find it. It ain't no building, there ain't no time schedules and you don't need to wait for sunday to go to "church". Under grace you're free of all those ordinances.
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 10:37:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 4:04:46 AM EDT
Sorry, [b]Stokes[/b], I just saw your post! In order for you to receive God's grace, you must be a member of Christ's body. To do this, you must, in the words of Christ, the Author of our salvation, be 'born again.' To be 'born again', you must be born: 1. of water, and 2. of the Spirit. Now, how is one born 'of water'? You are 'baptized for the remission of your sins' after you have believed in Jesus, repented of your sins, and confessed His name before men. At your baptism, you will receive the 'gift of the Holy Spirit.' Now you can begin your walk in the way with Jesus. Want to see an example of just such a baptism? Then read any, and I mean [u]any[/u], of the stories in Acts, wherein someone was added to the church. Even Paul was told he must be baptized in order to have his sins 'washed away.' So he didn't consider it a 'work' now did he? Eric The(AnyQuestions?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 4:49:30 AM EDT
Talk about gettin no respect. All the preachin' I've done around here, and [b] ETH[/b] gets the title "gospel defender???" He's ISRAEL defender. *** I **** an gospel defender boy. [}:D] (All right - I'm over myself.) To your question - [i]Eph 2: 8 - 9 For by grace are you saved, thru faith. it is the gift of God. Not of works, so that no man can boast.[/i] I'll differ with Eric. Baptism is "works" - something a person DOES. Eph 2: 8 - 9 makes it clear that salvation is NOT achieved thru something a man does. God leaves no room for a man to boast about what he has done. The thief on the cross is just one example of someone who Christ said would go to heaven, even tho he was NOT baptized. "Born of water" refers to the natural birth sack of water in the womb. (The expectant mother's expression "my water just broke" comes to mind) As Eric is want to do, he interprets Scripture often without quoting Scripture. A contextual check of John 3 will prove out my interpretation.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:01:10 AM EDT
Now to your question. Sunday church attendance is based on a weekly celebration of Christ's resurrection from the dead - which is the whole basis of the Christian faith. Christ rose on the first day of the week. Scripture only makes passing reference to Sunday worship. It is somewhat ASSUMED, not specifically stated as a dogmatic and essential tenet of doctrine. Nothing of the importance of receiving jesus Chrsit as Saviour, or the observance of the Lord's table. IMO, let every man be fully convinced in his own mind that he is doing right before God. "Fully convinced in his own mind" (a Scriptural quote - I don't recall the reference) means to search the Scriptures, and obey them to the best of your ability. Sabbath worship is Old Covenant - or Jewish in nature. Sunday worship is New Covenant - the Israel of God, defined as all beleivers of all time periods that have trusted in Jesus Christ for their salvation.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:11:44 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
Talk about gettin no respect. All the preachin' I've done around here, and ETH gets the title "gospel defender???"
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Sorry to disabuse you, [b]garandman[/b], but Gospel_Defender, another member, holds that title, not me.
I'll differ with Eric. Baptism is "works" - something a person DOES. Eph 2: 8 - 9 makes it clear that salvation is NOT achieved thru something a man does. God leaves no room for a man to boast about what he has done.
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Well, 'believe', 'repent', and 'confess' are also things that a man does. Are they likewise unnecessary for salvation? Heh-heh-heh!
The thief on the cross is just one example of someone who Christ said would go to heaven, even tho he was NOT baptized.
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No, garandman, the [b]penitent thief[/b] died under the Law. You know, 'the Law'? The stuff you excoriate at every step. You, of all people should know [u]this[/u]! And under the 'Law' what was necessary for a man's salvation? Hint: forgiveness by God. Well, the penitent thief received his from the Lord Himself, while hanging around Jerusalem, one day![:D]
"Born of water" refers to the natural birth sack of water in the womb. (The expectant mother's expression "my water just broke" comes to mind) As Eric is want to do, he interprets Scripture often without quoting Scripture.
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If 'born of water' simply means 'birth', why would the Lord even mention it? garandman, I am afraid that you are simply a modern day Nicodemus. You know the scripture after a fashion, but are totally at a loss to interpret it or understand its meaning. So tell me again, brother, why did Jesus command His Church to [red][b]'Go ye into the world and preach the Gospel to every creature; He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; He that believeth not shall be damned'[/b][/red]? Mark 16:15,16 If you can't answer that rightly, you simply are a blind guide and will lead others into the ditch with you.
A contextual check of John 3 will prove out my interpretation.
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A contextual check of the entire New Testament will disprove your interpretation. Eric The(Exasperated)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:30:57 AM EDT
Stokes, My personal belief is that God is the Father, and like any Father, he is willing to put up with crappy kids, and forgive them no matter what they do. This of course, assumes he exists at all, and I won't know this until I have shuffled off this mortal coil. I can't believe that a Supreme Being would be so egotistical as to have his children worship him, or put conditions on His love for you. I think that the bible has some nice fairy tales, and should be viewed as an interesting historical document, written during a very barbaric period, to give guidance and comfort to people. It does contain good words to live by, ie the commandments, etc. I know I'll get slammed by the thumpers here, but I really don't care. My children and I pray before every meal, say our prayers before bedtime too. We thank God for the things we have. We go to church infrequently.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:39:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2002 5:41:57 AM EDT by Oilhead]
Stokes, [b]Romans 10:9&10 [/b] is the scripture in the Bible that sums it up for me and hopefully it will put things into perspective for you. It says.... [b]9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [/b] That's it. That's all it takes. "religion" has turned so many people away from Christ and salvation over the years and has made it seem so hard for people to be saved. It has also has made people who aren't saved feel like they are looked down on by christians because they always have this condesending attitude like "you must be perfect and free from sin to be saved" when that isn't the case at all. Lets say you have a child and they run away from home and start a life of drugs and other unmentionable things that you wouldn't want them doing. Would you tell them "you cannot come back home until you clean your life up and live perfectly"? I think not, you would just want them to come back home as they are and then once they get back to your house where you can care for them, then you would work on the things that aren't right in their lives. This is what the Lord has for us, he wants us to come to him...just as we are. All it takes is to accept Christ, nothing more... nothing less... Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:45:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Now to your question. IMO, let every man be fully convinced in his own mind that he is doing right before God. "Fully convinced in his own mind" (a Scriptural quote - I don't recall the reference) means to search the Scriptures, and obey them to the best of your ability.
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Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:53:17 AM EDT
Post from Oilhead -
It says.... 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. That's it. That's all it takes.
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Hmmm, not quite, brother Oilhead. I see nothing in what you've quoted from Paul that says that you must REPENT! Isn't repentence necessary? Well, then, why didn't Paul mention repentence? Same reason he didn't specifically mention water baptism, either, as a requirement. If you take these verses out of context with what Paul preaches, and what Christ commands, then you are left with very little. You may be gullible enough to put your hand on the television set and claim, along with the Rev. Billy Joe Gotchadough, Jesus as your personal Savior, and BOOM, you're IN! You may think you're IN, but you're mistaken. BTW, when making out your check to the right Rev. Billy Joe, remember to spell his name correctly - it's 'G-o-t-c-h-a-d-o-u-g-h', or you can save yourself some time and simply make it payable to 'cash.' [b]'One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism![/b] - Paul, Ephesians, 4:5 Eric The(So?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:04:34 AM EDT
Oilhead, You made the best summation of what Jesus tried to convince all the knuckleheads of. They all just could not believe that it was just that simple! Rom. 3:23 "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." "All our righteousness is like dirty rags to God." A dirty rag in this reference was a used tampon. It takes a relationship with Jesus and not a religion to get you into Heaven. It's not what you know but who you know![;)] There are a lot of people in the world who have "Called on the Lord" and are saved but think that He is not "Big" enough to keep them saved. We go to church on Sunday in remembrance of the day that Jesus rose from the dead! Jesus said "I did not come into the world to do away with the law but to fulfill the law." Keep the faith spreading. Later, BigDozer66
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:12:16 AM EDT
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. It would also appear that one can have the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism;Acts 10:44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? However, Peter then commands that they be baptized right away... Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:15:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: If 'born of water' simply means 'birth', why would the Lord even mention it?
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Because NICODEMUS DID. Read the context of the passage. Chrsit was speaking to Nicodemus in a language he could understand, parallelling spiritual birth with physical birth.
So tell me again, brother, why did Jesus command His Church to [red][b]'Go ye into the world and preach the Gospel to every creature; He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; He that believeth not shall be damned'[/b][/red]? Mark 16:15,16
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Well, why does the passage then ONLY say "he that beleives not shall be damned"? Why doesn't it say "beleives not and is not baptized?"
A contextual check of John 3 will prove out my interpretation.
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A contextual check of the entire New Testament will disprove your interpretation. Eric The(Exasperated)Hun[>]:)]
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Examples of salvation w/o baptism 1. The thief on the cross. Scripturally, baptism must FOLLOW salvation. NO WAY was the thief baptized. But Christ promised him eternal life. Now either baptism is NOT necessary for salvation, or Christ is making up the rules as he goes along. 2. The Philippian jailer (Acts 16: 31) Paul told him "Beleive, and you shall be saved." No mention of baptism as a requirement. 3. Romans 10 :9 - No mention of baptism as necessary for salvation.
Well, 'believe', 'repent', and 'confess' are also things that a man does. Are they likewise unnecessary for salvation? Heh-heh-heh!
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"Believe, repent and confess" are things God EMPOWERS a man to do, and are heart matters INITIATED by God. Baptism is a physical action initiated by man.
No, garandman, the penitent thief died under the Law. You know, 'the Law'? The stuff you excoriate at every step. You, of all people should know this! And under the 'Law' what was necessary for a man's salvation? Hint: forgiveness by God.
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Even the dispensationalists tells us that the age of law ended at Christ's offer "Come unto me all ye that labor...." which occurred BEFORE the cross. As such, the thief was in the so-called "age of grace." Of course, far as I'm concerned "age of law/age of grace" is all a bunch of unscriptural bunk anyway. God has ONE plan for man - Jesus Christ. I don't know where you go to church Eric, but if you tithe, I'd recommend you ask for a refund [}:D]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:16:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2002 6:31:04 AM EDT by Kingme]
Very impressive garandman. You said, Eph 2: 8 - 9 For by grace are you saved, thru faith. it is the gift of God. Not of works, so that no man can boast. I'll differ with Eric. Baptism is "works" - something a person DOES. Eph 2: 8 - 9 makes it clear that salvation is NOT achieved thru something a man does. God leaves no room for a man to boast about what he has done. The thief on the cross is just one example of someone who Christ said would go to heaven, even tho he was NOT baptized. "Born of water" refers to the natural birth sack of water in the womb. (The expectant mother's expression "my water just broke" comes to mind) As Eric is want to do, he interprets Scripture often without quoting Scripture. A contextual check of John 3 will prove out my interpretation. I too differ with EricTheHun. He means well but he insists on adding his $.02 to salvation through grace. When ETH says, "Well, 'believe', 'repent', and 'confess' are also things that a man does. Are they likewise unnecessary for salvation? Heh-heh-heh!", it's clear that he doesn't understand grace but insists on believing in legalism. Belief is the only thing you can do in order to do nothing! Now after the rapture, salvation will go back to the law. People will be given their opportunity to do "good works" that they so badly want to get into. After the rapture, if you want to declare your faith in Jesus, you'll have to put your head on the chopping block. I like grace better.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:22:06 AM EDT
ETH sais, "If 'born of water' simply means 'birth', why would the Lord even mention it?" God included this in his salvation requirements to exclude demon spirits. The devils are forever lost with no chance of changing their mind. They cannot be "born again".
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:24:51 AM EDT
Oh yes one must remember to exclude those demon spirits!! Personally my favorite spirit is Brandy....
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:58:29 AM EDT
Post from Kingme -
God included this in his salvation requirements to exclude demon spirits. The devils are forever lost with no chance of changing their mind. They cannot be "born again".
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[size=4][red]Jesus Christ![/red][/b][/size=4] Eric The(NothingMore,IWasJust'NameDropping')Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:10:05 AM EDT
Wow, To what lengths will people go to ignore the will of Him whom they would seek to serve. Unreal. Explain away please.... "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" acts 22:16 Acts 2:38 repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins Mark 16:16 he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved 1 Peter 3:21 Baptism doth also now save us You guys just dont like to hear the truth do you? Dont argue with me, I am nothing, argue with the guy that used men to write His Will. His name is Jesus, as ETH pointed out, by the way. The birthsack is full of water. Hmmm.... yes it is full of amniotic fluid. But when the eunuch was baptized, which and uhm... whose birth canal was he stuffed into?? Just curious you know.... I know Ethiopians are a rather skinny lot of buggers you know... but would it not be rather crowded in there?? Just curious you know. If the eunuch after hearing the preaching of Christ being the son of God, and desiring such that he wished to declare Him Lord of his life. Why wouldnt Philip just slap him on the back give him a big hug and say well met new brother in Christ good job! Nope, that didnt happen, Acts:8:38 happened. Black and white, irrefutable evidence of someone acting on the proofs put before him. If you believe me, you will do my will. Christ wasnt confused when he put that in his book.... why are you guys? Dram
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:25:38 AM EDT
got this from RBC ministries website: While baptism is an important act of obedience, it isn’t necessary for salvation. The only requirement for salvation is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ ( John 1:12-13; 3:16-18; 6:28-29 ; Ephesians 2:8-9 ). In the first century, baptism always followed immediately as the first step of obedience, so much so that it is often mentioned alongside of faith as part of the “package” that brought a person into the body of Christ ( Matthew 28:19 ; Mark 16:16 ; Acts 2:38 ). However, passages like John 1:12-13 , Romans 3:21-31, 4:1-12, 5:1 , and Ephesians 2:8-9 make it clear that it is God’s grace through faith alone that bring salvation. The misunderstanding by those who teach that baptism is necessary for salvation stems in part from a failure to recognize that the New Testament was written by people who were familiar enough with baptism to understand that it was the normal means of expressing conversion. In that context, early Christians would be less likely than ourselves to misunderstand the symbolism in the apostle Paul’s words: Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life (Romans 6:3-4). He could use the expressions “baptized into Christ,” “baptized into His death,” and “buried with Him through baptism into death” with the confidence that his readers would realize that he was using the language of symbolism. Obviously baptism doesn’t cause us to die physically with Christ or to be buried in the tomb where His body was placed. It expresses our desire to live a victorious Christian life and symbolizes our identification with Jesus Christ through faith, by which we share in the benefits of all He did for us. We recognize symbolism, for example, in the wedding ring. A ring doesn’t physically cause unending love and devotion, it symbolizes these qualities. Likewise, wearing a gold band doesn’t make the wearer a faithful spouse. Its symbolism is an outward expression of an inward reality and can be a helpful reminder of fidelity. Verse after verse in the Scriptures, both in the Old and New Testaments, clearly affirm salvation by grace through faith alone. Abraham, David, Moses, Daniel, and a host of Old Testament people were never baptized and yet are heroes of the faith, heirs of salvation. The dying thief who repented was promised companionship with Jesus in Paradise even though he died without baptism ( Luke 23:43 ). If we interpret the few passages that seem to make baptism a requirement for salvation in the light of the hundreds that declare salvation is by faith alone and the many that clearly make baptism a symbol, we will find them in perfect harmony with the great body of biblical truth. Written by: Dan Vander Lugt
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:25:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dramborleg: Explain away please.... "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" acts 22:16 Acts 2:38 repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins Mark 16:16 he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved 1 Peter 3:21 Baptism doth also now save us
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The Apostle Paul explains the symbolism: [i]Rom 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [/i] It is teh baptism into Chrsit's death that saves us - not the baptism into H2O.
The birthsack is full of water. Hmmm.... yes it is full of amniotic fluid. But when the eunuch was baptized, which and uhm... whose birth canal was he stuffed into?? Just curious you know.... I know Ethiopians are a rather skinny lot of buggers you know... but would it not be rather crowded in there?? Just curious you know.
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Well, if you would READ JOHN 3 (like I asked a dozen times) you would see Nicodenus asked the exact same question. "How can a man be reborn physically?" Christ answered "A man must be born pysically (of water) once and then spiritually (of the spirit)" to enter the kingdom of heaven. You make a MUCH more convincing case (albeit still wrong) out of the texts you actually quote than those who use John 3. But you are ALL still in violation of Eph 2: 8-9 that CLEARLY indicates salvation is by faith alone. NOT OF WORKS, and baptism IS a "work." Faith is NOT a work. Faith alone saves a man. James goes on to explain that saving faith MUST have works (evidences of salvation) attached to it, but the works do NOT save - they merely eveidence the existence of salvation.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:34:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dramborleg: 1 Peter 3:21 Baptism doth also now save us
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Seldom has there been a more egregious example of violating context. here's the WHOLE text - [i]....baptism doth also now save us [b](not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,[/b] but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:[/i] Baptism DOES NOT put away sin - it only gives man a good conscience toward God in that he has followed a step of obedience (baptism) that FOLLOWS salvation. Obedience ALWAYS follows salvation. Baptism is just one example.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:39:04 AM EDT
Well, as it says in FM 23-10, 3-4: [i]Trigger control is the most important of the sniper marksmanship fundamentals. It is defined as causing the rifle to fire when the sight picture is at its best, without causing the rifle to move. Trigger squeeze is uniformly increasing pressure straight to the rear until the rifle fires.[/i]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:49:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2002 8:09:16 AM EDT by Kingme]
Garandman said, "Of course, far as I'm concerned "age of law/age of grace" is all a bunch of unscriptural bunk anyway. God has ONE plan for man - Jesus Christ." You were doing real good until you said the above. If God had only one plan, why were animal sacrifices accepted as a covering for the sins of man? Now that has been changed to full forgiveness through Jesus' death, burial, and ressurection!. Why was salvation originally and directly only to the jews and then changed to be directly to the gentiles? Why is God instructing us, through Paul, that there is something kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25) and emphasises it again in Col 1:26 "even the mystery which hat been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:". Does this sound like just "one" plan for man? How can God say repent and be baptized, then say by faith alone, then go back to repentance? Isn't this a change in plans? There are many contrasts which cannot be resolved without dispensationalism. Perhaps I should point out something that may clarify this issue. The age of law is from Genesis to John, actually Acts 9. Acts is a transistional book. The age of grace is from Romans, actually Acts 9, to Philemon. The age of law returns from Hebrews to Revelation. The beginning of the dispensation of grace was not instanteaneous but had to be grasped by a series of revelations given to Paul. So in our time line we have law-grace-law. Grace is a parenthetical dispensation and will end when the last gentile is saved. More later if you're interested.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 8:01:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2002 12:15:58 PM EDT by Am-O-Tramp]
I really enjoy thumper threads, you all can be entertaining to say the least, but when you disagree sometimes I do see pride and anger in your various disagreements. When you disagree that way you help the enemy and reinforce the stereo typical Bible Thumper image that turns people away from God. Your all good people, don't let pride, and anger help the enemy and allow people to say things like ~ "no one seems to agree on what the Bible says, so why should anyone take the time to read it". I'm trying to do better O'Lord. HEHEHE [0:)] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid18/pfece9a4d7ac7a3601a6e4a6389674a73/fdccc749.gif[/img] Eric and garandman behave or I'll rap ya across the knuckles with my trusty ruler. God bless us all. Am-O-Tramp
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 8:07:08 AM EDT
Not so [b]Kingme[/b] - [size=3][b]'One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism! -[/b][/size=3] Paul, Ephesians 4:5 Eric The(PrettySimple,Huh?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 8:10:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2002 8:19:05 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By Kingme: You were doing real good until you said the above. If God had only one plan, why were animal sacrifices accepted as a covering for the sins of man? Now that has been changed to Jesus' death, burial, and ressurection!.
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Now yer gettin into my FAVORITE area of dicussion. Consider: [i]Heb. 10: 4 - For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. [/i] The blood of bulls and goats COVERED sins that WERE STILL THERE. Christ's death REMOVED sin. The entire OT was illustrative to point men to Christ. [i]Gal. 3: 24 - Wherefore teh law was a schholmaster to bring us to Christ.[/i]
Why was salvation originally and directly only to the jews and then changed to be directly to the gentiles?
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Because of the mystery you refer to below.
Why is God instructing us, through Paul, that there is something kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25) and emphasises it again in Col 1:26 "even the mystery which hat been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:". Does this sound like just "one" plan for man? How can God say repent and be baptized, then say by faith alone, then go back to repentance? Isn't this a change in plans?
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The fact that God held back revelation of a mytery "since the foundation of the world" indicates that he had a SINGLE plan, since time began. That mystery was this - that Jew and Gentile become one in Christ, that Israel is ALL peoples of ALL nations for ALL time that received faith in jesus Christ, and that the blessings of Abraham come on the Gentiles thru Christ, Christ being Abraham's ONLY true seed. (There are too many Scriptures to cite here, but e-mail me and I will give them to you. I'm writing a book on this subject)
The age of law is from Genesis to John, actually Acts 9. Acts is a transistional book. The age of grace is from Romans, actually Acts 9, to Philemon. The age of law returns from Hebrews to Revelation. The beginning of the dispensation of grace was not instanteaneous but had to be grasped by a series of revelations given to Paul. So in our time line we have law-grace-law.
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Actually, just the opposite. What POSSIBLY can we call God's election of Abraham out of Ur of the Chaldees, other than grace?? What POSSIBLY can we call God's election of Jacob (the youger son) over Esau (the eldest son, and by law entitled to the inheritance) but Grace??? What possibly can we call God's mercy to Adam, in spite of his sin, but grace?? We go from grace, to law, back to grace. (man's sin was multiplied so greatly by the time of Moses that god needed SOMETHING to maintain His righteouness until Christ should come (Gal. 3: 24 -25) [i]Romans 4: 13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of [b]faith.[/b] 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, [b]faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:[/b] 16 Therefore it is of [b]faith,[/b] that it might be by [b]grace;[/b] to the end the promise might be sure to[b] all the seed;[/b] not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the [b]faith of Abraham;[/b] who is the father of us [b]all,[/b] [/i] I'd love to continue. E-mail me if you wish to.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 10:16:23 AM EDT
All this "discussion" is why I should learn not to even come into the general discussion forum, it just makes me angry. This is exactly why people walk away from Christ, even the Christians can't agree amongst themselves.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 10:33:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Oilhead: All this "discussion" is why I should learn not to even come into the general discussion forum, it just makes me angry. This is exactly why people walk away from Christ, even the Christians can't agree amongst themselves.
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IMO, that's a cop-out. Christ NEVER said that you can walk away from what He teaches because of what others do. Even if I'm the meanest SOB in the world, you still bear responsibility before Christ. Christians love debate as much as the next guy. If that causes you to sin the sin of anger (you indicatd above that it does) , then indeed you SHOULD stay away from any place Chritians meet and debate. My $0.02 (and worth EVERY penny you paid for it)
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 10:43:36 AM EDT
Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. I, for one, do not claim to be the model of a born-again believer. I do not claim to be correct in my interpretation of the scriptures. I do not because I am human, capable of mistakes. I believe in God, believe He sent His Son to die for my sins, believe what the Bible said about Him saving me from Hell if I repent and accept Christ as my Saviour, and believe he sees deep into my soul to discern whether or not I really think all this is just a bunch of bullshit. I believe that is the real test of someone's final destination after death.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 10:59:45 AM EDT
We are saved by faith. Thank God! We are baptised by the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" when we accept Christ as our Savior. To confess Christ and demonstrate our Faith we are baptised in water, as a sign of our repentance. As John the Baptist said in Mt. 3:11, "I indeed baptise you with water unto repentance: but He (CHRIST) that cometh after me....He shall baptise you with the HOLY SPIRIT." So, you are all RIGHT. You are saved by GRACE through Faith and BAPTISED by the HOLY SPIRIT when you become one of the BODY OF CHRIST. The Washing away of sin through Water Baptism is a ritual to demonstrate the fact that you are ALREADY SAVED by faith. Amen
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 11:11:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ELEFTARIA: We are saved by faith. Thank God! We are baptised by the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" when we accept Christ as our Savior. To confess Christ and demonstrate our Faith we are baptised in water, as a sign of our repentance. As John the Baptist said in Mt. 3:11, "I indeed baptise you with water unto repentance: but He (CHRIST) that cometh after me....He shall baptise you with the HOLY SPIRIT." So, you are all RIGHT. You are saved by GRACE through Faith and BAPTISED by the HOLY SPIRIT when you become one of the BODY OF CHRIST. The Washing away of sin through Water Baptism is a ritual to demonstrate the fact that you are ALREADY SAVED by faith. Amen
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Well said, [strike]LeftTheArea[/strike] uhhh, I mean ELEFTARIA. [:D] Well said. BTW, where you been????
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 11:25:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Oilhead: All this "discussion" is why I should learn not to even come into the general discussion forum, it just makes me angry. This is exactly why people walk away from Christ, even the Christians can't agree amongst themselves.
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I think it is fine for Christians to debate, but you are correct. If it gets intense, it can keep people who have just a flicker of faith from finding a healthy, well-balanced church because "Christians" can't agree. We need to study God's Word and apply it to our life. Was not Jesus patient with the disciples who were with Him and still didn't get it most of the time? Every time I beat myself up because I didn't do what I [i]should[/i] have done, I try and remember the disciples. Even when they finally "get it"... John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." The thief on the cross [/b]never had the opportunity[/b] to be baptized before his death. But there are numerous passages commanding us to be baptized. It may be possible that God takes circumstances into account.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 12:57:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2002 1:00:05 PM EDT by Dramborleg]
Luke 12:51-53 "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; Mt 7:21-23 Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. On that day many will say to me, Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and do may mighty works in your name? And then will I declare unto them, I never knew you, depart from me you evildoers. To those whom this would apply beware of the above.... and to those who would call themselves followers of Christ, yet again I say beware... Christ came to seperate the wheat from the chaff and the chaff is to be burned. When those who follow Christ seek to defend and expound on the scriptures... those who would be ashamed to defend or explain them, I am afraid Christ may be ashamed to defend you on that last day. It is funny that there are those who seek to confound the simplicity of Christs new testament and His will by seeking to deny it. I will not mention them by name, they know who they are. Christ was the fulfillment of old testament prophesy and the only man to live perfect under the Mosaic law, and therefore was the perfect sacrifice for all sin for all time. When Christ died on the cross the law of Moses was no more, the burden of the law was taken away forever. Christ instituted his last will and testament with the Great Commission. Go unto all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned. What did the Ethiopian do when Phillip had expounded and preached the gospel to him? He commanded the chariot to be stopped so he could be baptized immediately. Not later fellas... NOW. The utter disregard for reality with those who would talk about the birth sack being part of the "water and the spirit" is ludicrous on the face of it. What utter mooning balderdash... When Christ asked for his followers to do certain things to achieve eternal life they were simplistic and straightforward in the extreme. How can his doctrine be misconstrued????? You must hear the Word. You must believe the Word. You must repent and turn away from your previous life. You must be baptized. John baptized in the wilderness but he explained that one shall come that baptizes you with the holy spirit. Yes, Christ himself. Faith comes first, ie belief or believing that JC is the son of God. Then you must repent and turn away from your previous life. Then when you are buried with him in baptism, Christ adds the missing ingredient that John the baptist lacked and foretold Christ will come with, ie baptism with the holy spirit. When you are baptized you get the full New Testament BAPTISM. You receive the gift of the holy spirit and rise up from the grave of baptism to walk in newness of life and are born again. You go from spiritual death to life right then and there. You can yammer all you want about how the old testament was faith faith faith etc... but this is Christs last will and testament. Those who would divide faith from baptism seek to plow the sea with a spoon. One follows the other inextricably and without question. What is so hard about believing what Christ asked for ??
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 12:58:27 PM EDT
cont. When God tells you to do something specific, like baptism, if you wish to obey him and receive that which he intends, you must then do as he asks. When General Naaman does what God asked to be cleansed of leprosy in 2 Kings: 8-14 he is healed, though he was mad and did not wish to do this and dip in the dirty Jordan but rather the clean rivers of his home in Syria. Naaman was not cleansed till he did as he was asked. What is the point of this? If you wish to receive from Christ that which is his to give... you will do as he asks... and until you do so.... you shall not receive... Again, if you are saved without baptism, you are saved without the power of God, for baptism is in the gospel, and the gospel is the power of God. Those who would deny Christ asking us to be baptized shall suffer in themselves the due results of his judgement, not mine... but His. I would that you fellas were right, then a great many more people would tread the streets of gold one day. But you are not. Dram
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 1:13:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dramborleg: The utter disregard for reality with those who would talk about the birth sack being part of the "water and the spirit" is ludicrous on the face of it.
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No, YOUR argument is ludicrous in the extreme. You (and others) keep trying to tell me what the John 3 reference to "born of water" means, but you [size=6]REFUSE[/size=6] to look at John 3 and read the context, and discuss it. Its like a probate judge screaming from the rooftop how an inheritance is to be divied up, but then telling the beneficiaries that the decedents legally executed will is irrelevant to the discussion. Christ's statement "born of water" was in DIRECT RESPONSE to Nicodemus question "Do we have to re-enter our mothers womb to be born?" Until you crack open the Bible and wish to discuss the SPECIFIC text of John chapter 3, this discussion is a fools paradise. And I'm done with it.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 1:31:47 PM EDT
Gosh darn it, there we go again. Why can't the participants in these "religious" (all inclusive) discussions understand that we all may see the same thing, but from different perspectives? Weren't the four gospels [i]four different perspectives[/i] of the same thing? That is, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are all describing Christ's life and work from their [b]own[/b] point of view? I have already stated what I believe in a previous post. I do not get all up in a tizzy because some of you may believe differently. In fact, some of you may not believe, period. That's fine. Different strokes for different folks. I happen to think we will all answer to a Higher Being one day and I hope each one of us passes the test. Unfortunately, this clearly will not happen. Live your life as you see fit and be ready to answer for it at the end. Again, I believe Christ saved me and will speak on my behalf that day.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 1:38:41 PM EDT
[b]12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[/b] Seems cut and dried to me......
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 1:50:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Oilhead: All this "discussion" is why I should learn not to even come into the general discussion forum, it just makes me angry. This is exactly why people walk away from Christ, even the Christians can't agree amongst themselves.
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And if Jesus had walked away from the debates in the Temple???
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 2:03:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: I'll differ with Eric.
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Now [b] [u]that[/u] [/b] would be a new twist... [:D]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 2:22:33 PM EDT
Stokes, Since this thread had my name at the front, I am not sure how I missed it when it was first posted. You asked:
Originally Posted By Stokes: I believe that Grace alone will bring me salvation. Also, I believe there are a few basic requirement God has before I will receive his Grace.
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First let us make sure we agree about "Grace" The word most often translated grace in the NT is the Greek word <5485> charis Meaning: grace, kindness Origin: a prim. word Usage: blessing(1), concession(1), credit(3), favor(11), gift(1), grace(122), gracious(2), gracious work(3), gratitude(1), thank(3), thankfulness(2), thanks(6). Notes: (a) Rom 5:20; 1Co 3:10; 2Co 4:15; Gal 1:13-16 (b) 1Th 1:3; 1Ti 2:15; 4:12; 6:11; 2Ti 1:13; 2:22; Tit 2:2 It is my understanding that "grace" does not "do" anything, The way you used it, Is that grace alone brings salvation. The way I understand it, Grace is a consequence of something else. In this case, The unmerited favor is the forgiveness of my sins. now as to your questions
Originally Posted By Stokes: This leads me to: Do you go to church on Saturday? Any other thoughts on the observance of the Sabbath and God's 24 Hours a Week? I sure like my Sunday Church, though.
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1. Do you go to church on Saturday? I assume you mean to ask if I assemble with Christians on Saturdays, Yes I do from time to time, put we gather each first day of the week as a congregation. As for one who seeks to continue to keep a special day for the Lord I would suggest Romans 14 as a good place to study, But if you are seeking to keep the Sabbath in the sense of the OT. Consider what the inspired writings of Paul declare in Galatians: Galatians 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Note, That if you seek to be justified by the Law you had better keep it all, and Christ will be of no benefit to you. Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 12:45:16 AM EDT
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