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Posted: 9/14/2010 11:58:32 AM EDT
MINNOWS > MAN, again


http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/24998152/detail.html

Lawsuit May End Fire Retardant Use After 2011

Environmental Group: Water, Fertilizer Mix Is Harmful To Fish, Plants & Habitat

Marshall Zelinger, 7NEWS Content Producer/Presenter
POSTED: 8:38 pm MDT September 13, 2010


JEFFERSON COUNTY, Colo. –– The fire retardant dropped from air tankers to prevent wildfires from spreading may no longer be an option after 2011.

As many as nine air tankers have dropped retardant –– a mixture of water, fertilizer and red dye –– on both the Fourmile Canyon Fire in Boulder County and the Reservoir Road Fire in Larimer County. The retardant is used to build a perimeter around a fire and is not dropped directly on the flames to put out the fire.

"It's not an extinguishment, it's a retardant. It's basically there to slow down and help the ground crews 100 percent," said David Stickler, a pilot for one of the lead planes that guides and acts as a lookout for an air tanker. "You want to stop it so when the fire's coming up towards the house, it's going to slow down at that point and let the ground firefighters get in there and knock it down the rest of the way."

A federal lawsuit filed in 2003 and another in 2008 by the Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics calls into question the use of fire retardant. The lawsuit suggests the mixture jeopardizes fish, plants and other habitats.

"They basically haven't made a retardant that can put out a fire completely without harming the environment," said Stickler.

Stickler told 7NEWS that retardant can be harmful to certain fish, but that retardant is not dropped within 300 feet of a water source unless an incident commander feels lives or property are at risk.

"For very, very, very small fish like minnows, that type of thing, you'll see that once it does get exposed to sunlight, those type of small fish, where they don't have the strength to defend, will actually start to perish at that point," said Stickler.

7NEWS asked if that's reason enough to stop using retardant.

"Actually, I've seen where you're getting more damage from ash going into the rivers than from the retardant going into the rivers," said Stickler. "We'll go out there a year afterwards and you'll see that the grass is really green there.

"A federal judge has given the U.S. Forest Service until the end of 2011 to complete environmental studies on the impact of fire retardant, as well as coming up with alternatives to retardant. Otherwise, the use of fire retardant could end.

"Then we would be dropping (water) right on the fire, (which) is a completely different strategy. It's better to make it so we can have the fire come up to it and go out on its own," said Stickler. "We have used water drops in a lot of places –– then we can go direct on the hits and stuff like that –– but the effectiveness of that, with a large fire like (Fourmile Canyon and Reservoir Road, are) very ineffective."

Air Tankers Aren't Based In Any One Area

There are 17 air tankers available nationwide to the U.S. Forest Service to drop fire retardant.

When the Fourmile Canyon fire was reported on the morning of Sept. 6, air tankers didn't arrive in Colorado to drop retardant on the fire until the late afternoon. The Reservoir Road Fire was reported Sunday morning, and within two hours, tankers that had been in Colorado for the Boulder County wildfire were dropping retardant on the fire in Loveland.

"It was unbelievably lucky for the people in Loveland that these aircraft were here," said Rita Baysinger, public information officer with the Rocky Mountain Area Coordination Center.

"This definitely was a best-case scenario," Baysinger added. "There are just not enough tankers that any one area can just say, 'Well, we want to keep them all for ourselves.'"

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:00:13 PM EDT
Never happen
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:02:47 PM EDT
Piece of shit judge outa montana caved in.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:03:25 PM EDT
Stupid fucking hippies...


Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:05:33 PM EDT
So I've got a solution. We put out the fires by dropping treehuggers on them. It's a win-win right?
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:10:56 PM EDT
Um.......doesn't FIRE jeopardize fish plants and habitat.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:18:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pcsutton:
Never happen


Yeah, that is what surf fishermen thought on the Outer Banks. Due to the envios and a activist judge the best fishing is closed off for months due to a damn bird. It has really hurt the area financially. I used to go down there twice a year but now just in the fall when the restrictions are lifted.....for now. Never say never.

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:19:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Demon123:
Um.......doesn't FIRE jeopardize fish plants and habitat.

Fire is natural. Fire is Mother Earth adjusting Her world naturally, unlike Evil Man and his wanton destruction.



Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:20:20 PM EDT


You can't make this stuff up...

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:20:58 PM EDT
meh... let the trees burn

then the mudslides will choke out the fish

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:22:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By akcaribouhunter:
Piece of shit judge outa montana caved in.


Said it before & will repeat myself again: there's a persistent liberal undercurrent going on in Montana.

Recall that Baucus was perhaps the original player that got HC bill on the table.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:22:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:23:46 PM EDT
100 years ago the average hight of a wildfire was about ten feet and the trees were so big with thick bark that fires weren't that big a deal.

Then we started fighting those fires...
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:23:51 PM EDT
That's retardant.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:24:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:
Originally Posted By akcaribouhunter:
Piece of shit judge outa montana caved in.


Said it before & will repeat myself again: there's a persistent liberal undercurrent going on in Montana.

Recall that Baucus was perhaps the original player that got HC bill on the table.


Lot of yupies moving into MT and making it go to shit.
Could see the difference last trip down plus what family has seen in the last 20yrs.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:25:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By joemama74:

meh... let the trees burn

then the mudslides will choke out the fish




And of course, say you're doing it for the children.

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:26:18 PM EDT
Do woods, da woods da woods are on fire!
We don't need no retardant, let the M-in F-er burn!
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:26:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By larkinmusic:
That's retardant.


Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:26:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 12:29:29 PM EDT by SnoopisTDI]
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:27:57 PM EDT
Someone should be taking names and when one of these hippie's house catches fire the FD should do NOTHING as fighting the fire would harm nature.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:32:35 PM EDT
What are you going to put the fire out with? Veal?

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:44:29 PM EDT
Yeah,, because the acidic ashes, mudslides, and debris choking the streams is a much better alternative. UNFREAKINGBELIEVABLE.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:50:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
100 years ago the average hight of a wildfire was about ten feet and the trees were so big with thick bark that fires weren't that big a deal.

Then we started fighting those fires...


Yep. The worst thing the fire service ever did was create Smoky the Bear. Forests that have burning for thousands of years suddenly became "harmful to wildlife". It's like the people in New Orleans who whined and complained when the city flooded. It's freaking below sea level!!! Sooner or later, nature always wins.

The one consolation I have is that nature would probably eat the tree huggers first.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:58:14 PM EDT
I did not see the name of the judge. But it would not surprise me if it was Donald Molloy the same pos federal judge that stopped the wolf hunt here. Maybe its time we start rethinking the way judges are appointed and limit their tenure.
They hold an incredible amount of influence over our lives.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 1:19:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dispatch55126:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
100 years ago the average hight of a wildfire was about ten feet and the trees were so big with thick bark that fires weren't that big a deal.

Then we started fighting those fires...


Yep. The worst thing the fire service ever did was create Smoky the Bear. Forests that have burning for thousands of years suddenly became "harmful to wildlife". It's like the people in New Orleans who whined and complained when the city flooded. It's freaking below sea level!!! Sooner or later, nature always wins.

The one consolation I have is that nature would probably eat the tree huggers first.


The fighting of forest fires heavy came about during the Great Depression to employ people.
We have gone way overboard for to many yrs on fighting forest fires.

Thers going to some big ones coming soon with all the fuel that has built up.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 1:24:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By akcaribouhunter:
Originally Posted By dispatch55126:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
100 years ago the average hight of a wildfire was about ten feet and the trees were so big with thick bark that fires weren't that big a deal.

Then we started fighting those fires...


Yep. The worst thing the fire service ever did was create Smoky the Bear. Forests that have burning for thousands of years suddenly became "harmful to wildlife". It's like the people in New Orleans who whined and complained when the city flooded. It's freaking below sea level!!! Sooner or later, nature always wins.

The one consolation I have is that nature would probably eat the tree huggers first.


The fighting of forest fires heavy came about during the Great Depression to employ people.
We have gone way overboard for to many yrs on fighting forest fires.

Thers going to some big ones coming soon with all the fuel that has built up.


This is exactly why forest fires are so big. Remember Yellowstone? All of the thatch that would normally burn off built up for years until finally you had a fire storm.

Also, consider this. Adaptation takes thousands of years, especially for plants. There are conifers that only release their seeds when burnt. This alone is a good basis that wildfires are a good thing.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 1:27:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Angelshare1:
What are you going to put the fire out with? Veal?



yummy
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 1:32:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dispatch55126:
Originally Posted By akcaribouhunter:
Originally Posted By dispatch55126:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
100 years ago the average hight of a wildfire was about ten feet and the trees were so big with thick bark that fires weren't that big a deal.

Then we started fighting those fires...


Yep. The worst thing the fire service ever did was create Smoky the Bear. Forests that have burning for thousands of years suddenly became "harmful to wildlife". It's like the people in New Orleans who whined and complained when the city flooded. It's freaking below sea level!!! Sooner or later, nature always wins.

The one consolation I have is that nature would probably eat the tree huggers first.


The fighting of forest fires heavy came about during the Great Depression to employ people.
We have gone way overboard for to many yrs on fighting forest fires.

Thers going to some big ones coming soon with all the fuel that has built up.


This is exactly why forest fires are so big. Remember Yellowstone? All of the thatch that would normally burn off built up for years until finally you had a fire storm.

Also, consider this. Adaptation takes thousands of years, especially for plants. There are conifers that only release their seeds when burnt. This alone is a good basis that wildfires are a good thing.


Oh yeah i remember Yellowstone.
Had to stay indoors a lot and could not go help out at the ranch when fires came.
Still amazes me how natives knew fire was good for the land and new comers just had to fight the fires all the time.
Just have to learn to listen to Mother Nature.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 2:39:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 2:40:42 PM EDT by Atomic_Ferret]
Same hippies that.
1. File lawsuits to prevent controlled burns
2. File lawsuits to prevent homeowners from clearing defensible space around their property.
3. File lawsuits to prevent mechanical thinning of brush in canyons and other wildlands.
4. File lawsuits to prevent homeowners in burn areas from rebuilding after a fire

All of the above happened here and were large contributing factors to the large loss of homes (and lives) in fires that swept through here in 97, 03 and 07.

Ironically, one of the fires burned through a large swath of undeveloped land that the hippies were fighting to save from development. The fires wiped out everything. As soon as the fires were put out, construction started.

Then again, the pseudo intellectual hippie morons want all of us (except them) concentrated in urban areas so that 90% of the land in the country can be put under federal government control and returned to a wild state.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 2:48:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Atomic_Ferret:
Same hippies that.
1. File lawsuits to prevent controlled burns
2. File lawsuits to prevent homeowners from clearing defensible space around their property.
3. File lawsuits to prevent mechanical thinning of brush in canyons and other wildlands.
4. File lawsuits to prevent homeowners in burn areas from rebuilding after a fire

All of the above happened here and were large contributing factors to the large loss of homes (and lives) in fires that swept through here in 97, 03 and 07.

Ironically, one of the fires burned through a large swath of undeveloped land that the hippies were fighting to save from development. The fires wiped out everything. As soon as the fires were put out, construction started.

Then again, the pseudo intellectual hippie morons want all of us (except them) concentrated in urban areas so that 90% of the land in the country can be put under federal government control and returned to a wild state.


Obama's next stimulus plan.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:17:53 PM EDT
Ok we can just drop hippies on the fire till it goes out.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 7:12:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BeerPimp:
Ok we can just drop hippies on the fire till it goes out.

My god, the smell...
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