It seems that when the K-State things anniversary comes up each year they always like to get up and read the names of the 7 poor non combatants killed on that day... I just wish they would do the right thing, make things fair and read the names of the US servicemen killed in Vietnam on that same day!!!!! At least they died fighting a real enemy and died with HONOR!

Speaking only for my own statement you quoted above, I think you missed the context of that statement.

The "them" I was referring to were the [u]violent[/u] hippies and militants. The bottle-throwers and arsonist/rioters at Kent (and in my example at Cornell, the black terrorists).

"THEY ALL" should have been killed on the spot or imprisoned.

ACTUALLY, the rabble rousing activists looking to overthrow a established system through violent actions (Putsch) and replace it with "their" value system is much more akin to the Nazi SA (Brownshitrts) that you speak of.

Tha Nazis gained control of Germany in JUST THIS WAY.

First they attempted to overthrow it by force.

Second they sought to change public opinion by force.

Third they held the system hostage in order to get out their message.

Fourth after securing a "participation in the process" they browbeat ALL who opposed them politically. (ie. YOU must be a Nazi/Racists/Klan member, etc.)

Fifth, after a suitable catastrophie they siezed control and limited freedom "For the good of the people..."

I genuinely regret the death or even injury of any innocent bystanders. But to those who were present merely to contribute to the "hijacking" of this country, fuck 'em.

How reassuring that you find something regrettable in the situation.  You have yet to tell me what [b]any[/b] of the people who were shot did to deserve it.  Here are their names, I did the research for you. Tell  me what each of them did.

[b]Wounded:[/b]
Alan Canfora
Age: 21
Barberton, OH

John Cleary
Age: 19
Scotia, NY

Thomas Mark Grace
Age: 20
Syracuse, NY

Dean Kahler
Age: 20
Canton, OH

Joseph Lewis
Massillon, OH

Donald MacKenzie
Summit Station, PA

James Dennis Russell
Teaneck, NY

Robert Stamps
Age: 19
South Euclid, OH

Douglas Wrentmore
Age: 20
Northfield, OH

[b]Killed:[/b]
Allison Krause
Age: 19
Date of Birth: April 23, 1951
Pittsburgh, PA
Freshman, Honors College
Chest wound

Jeffrey Glen Miller
Age: 20
Date of Birth: March 28, 1950
Plainview, Long Island (NY)
Sophomore, Psychology
Head wound

Sandra Lee Scheuer
Age: 20
Date of Birth: August 11, 1949
Youngstown, OH
Junior, Speech & Hearing Therapy
Neck wound

William Knox Schroeder
Age: 19
Date of Birth: July 20, 1950
Lorain, OH
Sophomore, Psychology
Chest wound

I don't know them as individiuals. And I NEVER claimed "they" as individuals deserved to get shot. You tried to put those words in our mouths.

WE objected to those who were guilty. If that includes those on your list fine. "I" never said they shot the right people. I fully agree with and find regrettable the killing of ANYONE innocent. I took a lot of shit in the Pro Israeli threads for just this stance.

BUT would you really have us believe that this was just some peaceful "sit in" that the USNG shot up for fun? You really make it sound like all these peaceful hippies got together, and really were just walking around putting daisies in M1 barrels while singing Kumbia.

The fact is, they were destroying property and conducting a violent protest that was in the process of/or had already become a riot. Would you have preferred it to go unchecked? Would you have preferred innocent people died as a result of the ensuing arson? A buring Administration building can kill far more than 4 innnocent people.

But to get to the point that you seem to empathize about. The Guard "firing" into the crowd truly leaves little discernment for innocent vs. guilty. Anyone could be hit from the asshole protestor who created the situation, to the sudent who showed up to watch the dumbasses, to the person on their way to the next class. The killing of anyone not directly responsible for creating the situation is unfortunate and extremely regrettable. On that I think everyone will agree 100%.

But what MOST of us are truly upset about is the people who ultimately created the situation where 4 died. If you wanna be pissed at somebody for that, blame the activists. They created the environment and put the ball into play. Even after a armed presence was produced they continued to force the situation by attacking the armed deterent. Why you "seemingly" side with those who created the situation is beyond me.

Really now [b]Golgo-13[/b]. You know darn well that in a mob/riot situation, singular identification of an individual's crimes within that mob is a secondary consideration.

Using your approach, the actual crimes committed by each and every Taliban killed in Afghanistan would have to be known prior to the dropping of Daisycutters?



Look, I wasn't at Kent and you probably weren't either. It is true that bystanders did get shot and that there was an obvious over-use of violence and force [b]BY BOTH SIDES[/b].

I'm quite sure that the National Guard was not called in PRIOR TO the arsons and mobs. The NG was called as a RESULT OF the previous violent actions and their continued threatening actions.

Why don't some of you just sit down and read "JBA111"'s posts.

He gives a very detailed and unbiased run-down of the events from someone who was there.

Seems to me that again (as in Ruby Ridge and Waco) the people in charge (university administration, police, and military) fell down on the job.

Again resulting in the masacure of (in this case - un-armed) civilians.

Also, did you ever wonder how many of the NG troups were in the NG just to skip the regular serice and not go to Vietnam? Maybe they were feeling a little guilty and seeing people in black-pajamas and rice-straw hats (VC) instead of college students?

A million questions/scenerios to be argued over year-after-year.

The leading authority on crowd control/riot suppression at that time was Colonel Rex Applegate.  He very clearly layed out the basic principles of such in "Kill or Get Killed" and then gives more detailed explanations of the techniques in other works.  This is germane because the information was available, and in use by organizations like the PA State Police, for years before the Kent State shootings.  Applegate recommends in no uncertain terms against using rifles or other lethal weapons to control crowds or disperse rioters.  Teargas, batons, riot gear, and superior tactics are the preferred tools, even against rioters hurling rocks and bottles.  What did we see at Kent State?  Untrained young men armed with battle rifles and bayonets, led (if they were actually led at all) by people who didn't even have such basic knowledge of the AO as what time classes were dismissed.  The fvck-ups who did that killed more people than the "rioters" did.
What were the protestors protesting?  A fvcked-up meatgrinder of a war into which their relatives, friends, and classmates were being thrown for no discernable gain.  The young men who were shot in Vietnam that day, and lots of other days too, were shot for no better reason than those people at Kent State.
I gave you their names to remind you that there were people killed and injured.  It's easy to talk about an amorphous, faceless "they."  "Agitators"  "Weathermen" "Outsiders"...If you've never been to the Vietnam Memorial, you need to go.  That far-too-long list of names is a litany of my countrymen who died for no fvcking good reason because of the fvcking government.  Four more died for no better reason at Kent State.  If it comforts you to believe that "Hippies", "radicals", "agitators" and others are really to blame, then so be it.