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Posted: 9/11/2010 1:09:25 AM EDT
Let me start by saying I know very little about the manufacturing/machining business. But I have noticed there are quite a few triggers out there that cost around or above 250 dollars. Is that price justified for what you are actually getting? Don't take this the wrong way, I am not bitching about it and I have no problem with capitalism. It just seems somewhat overpriced. For the record I use Geissele match triggers and really like them and will continue to buy them.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 1:30:38 AM EDT
Yes and No. It basically has to do with how many units need to be sold to make a profit. Since high end trigger parts are used on maybe 1 out of 250 ARs the market is small, thus the price point has to be higher to turn a profit.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 1:35:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2010 1:36:03 AM EDT by sherrick13]
Uhhm, hopefully they are.


If things aren't priced way above manufacturing cost, how the hell do you pay for: Storage, packaging, shipping, accounting, marketing and advertising, physical overhead, labor overhead, profit both at the manufacturing, wholesaler and retail levels?


You should be marveling at how they can work all those costs in and still deliver the product to market at such a low price.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 4:18:22 AM EDT
All items are always priced at an equilibrium between how many are available and how many people want to buy. Sellers value your cash more than they value their goods and buyers value the sellers goods more than they value their own cash. They make and exchange where both are better off than before. If one or the other isn't going to be better off, then no exchange takes place.

When cash and goods come together at a point where both parties agree, we get price. If the price is too high, then you will value your cash, or a replacement product from another seller that isn't priced too high, more than the goods that are offered. If the price is too low, then the seller will use their labor and capital to make things people do value more highly. In this instance, you are free not to buy and the seller is free to try and make things with their available inputs that returns the most amount possible.

In this way, prices are always fair.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 4:25:06 AM EDT
Once you recover R&D, it's all good.

That said, I have the SSA trigger in one rifle. I love it; however, with 8 rifles, I simply can not afford 7 more.

IMO - yes - they could sell them cheaper, but what do I know about the profit/loss of that product? Not a damned thing!

YMMV
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 5:20:30 AM EDT
It's not about cost of manufacturing. It's about economic value or what the market will bear. What many people here don't seem to realize is that the AR market is not that big. Making a trigger system for only a small percentage of that is not a very cost efficient prospect. Lots of up front engineering and testing added to the mixture along with tooling, setup, advertising, warrant support etc and you get the idea of all the costs that have to be recovered in order for the manufacturer to actually make a profit.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 5:37:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 5:47:26 AM EDT
Specifically, the HTS sets are priced with a very small return on profit. I do have all or most all the numbers and its a rough market for those parts.

Things to consider.
Cost of investment casting molds, usually around $10,000 per part.
overhead cost on inventory( you must cast and machine a lot to get any efficency, this means high inventory cost)
Cost of machinery, labor, buildings etc-remember if your triggers are not selling you still have to pay for these things.

At the end of the month, most companies selling those parts are lucky to record 5% return on the trigger sets.

Now, on to the custom triggers, these start out with higher grade steels for the castings and require a lot more labor to tune them and they are all hand tuned. Now after your higher production cost and lower volumes you have to give the distributor a nice fat return and then the retailer needs a return on profit. I can say that a $150 custom trigger is a very good price after all that.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 5:53:47 AM EDT
They may be very nice triggers but I never saw a problem with standard factory parts and I was heavily into competition, even going to Camp Perry for a number of years. I have the money, I just don't want to spend it on that.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 5:57:34 AM EDT
I wish there were more discussions like this around the Bushmaster ACR.

Typical response-Whoever set the price is an idiot. The company should charge less.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 6:07:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By xylo:
I wish there were more discussions like this around the Bushmaster ACR.

Typical response-Whoever set the price is an idiot. The company should charge less.

THEY are idiots and the company should charge less.


Hope that helps...
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 6:13:57 AM EDT
I wish everything was really cheap. I think some here actually like paying a high price as if it is a requirement of the "you get what you pay for" mentality.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 6:56:41 AM EDT
When you look at all of the AR components, I suspect from manufacturer to consumer the profit is tremendous. Some springs probably cost pennies to make but cost several dollars when purchased. Even forgings for upper and lower receivers, How many are made and prices all over the place and " most' are basically the same.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 10:07:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jkingrph:
When you look at all of the AR components, I suspect from manufacturer to consumer the profit is tremendous. Some springs probably cost pennies to make but cost several dollars when purchased. Even forgings for upper and lower receivers, How many are made and prices all over the place and " most' are basically the same.


The contribution margin from each item is tremendous –– the overall profit is not.

Sure they might make a dollar or two on each 5¢ spring, but how many do you have to sell to pay the rent?

Link Posted: 9/11/2010 10:40:49 AM EDT
Parts are priced according to what they will sell at.

Remember the gear-queers all indignant at the thought of "lower-end" stripped lowers selling for $110 last year? They only used "Spikes Tactical" lowers because at $180, you could smell the quality.

I notice those guys have shut the fuck up now that you can buy a "Spikes Tactical" stripped lower from AIM for $70 (when they have them in stock).

And I'll just throw this out there: you can buy an ambidextrous charging handle from a well-know Navion-flying Arfcom industry partner for $85. That's right, $85. Remember that you can get the MUCH more complex-to-machine stripped lower for as little as $70 from AIM (not the spikes tactical one). I'm not knocking the $85 charging handle selling guy, he's running a business at the price points that make sense for him and his employees, and I can respect that. But I'll let you draw your own conclusions as to whether parts are priced on the basis of a name, reputation, or demand, and not on what the base cost plus a reasonable markup is.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 2:36:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 8:04:28 PM EDT
Good observation

As the maker of said trigger in Op's post and one who did not run a business before starting this one let me comment.

A manufacturer who takes pennies worth of steel and can turn this steel into useful products is looked at like a host by a swarm of parasites. Everyone has his hand out. From local gov, county gov, state gov, fed gov, insurance co, health ins co, workmans comp, unemployment ins, elect co., gas co etc Its insane really. For what we pay in liability insurance I can buy a new 3 series BMW every year. Workmans comp a nice Harley. Company health insurance.....5 series 2010 BMW (yes I like BMWs although I don't have one now....no time to work on my old E28s)

I can hire people and offer $8hr with no bennies to work in a shithole or I can pay a living wage, offer good HMO health insurance, a 401 K plan with nice co match, quarterly bonuses, vacation time, flex time, plenty of overtime, company paid skill training, opportunities for advancement and a comfortable work environment. Which worker would you want doing QA checks on your trigger? It costs money to treat people in a moral and good manner.

I won't even get into the equipment I have purchased which is over 1M just to make the SSA.

We have become used to Walmart-like products in this country. Made cheap at the expense of the workers and the environment. Buy it, use it a year and throw it away.

Low volume, innovative, machined instrument quality gun parts made in a law abiding USA shop? Triggers your great grand kids who are not born yet will whistle and say "man that trigger that grand pappy has in this gun is killer!"

They will never be inexpensive.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 9:55:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2010 10:01:05 PM EDT by Stephen_A]
Originally Posted By sagmill:
Good observation

As the maker of said trigger in Op's post and one who did not run a business before starting this one let me comment.

A manufacturer who takes pennies worth of steel and can turn this steel into useful products is looked at like a host by a swarm of parasites. Everyone has his hand out. From local gov, county gov, state gov, fed gov, insurance co, health ins co, workmans comp, unemployment ins, elect co., gas co etc Its insane really. For what we pay in liability insurance I can buy a new 3 series BMW every year. Workmans comp a nice Harley. Company health insurance.....5 series 2010 BMW (yes I like BMWs although I don't have one now....no time to work on my old E28s)

I can hire people and offer $8hr with no bennies to work in a shithole or I can pay a living wage, offer good HMO health insurance, a 401 K plan with nice co match, quarterly bonuses, vacation time, flex time, plenty of overtime, company paid skill training, opportunities for advancement and a comfortable work environment. Which worker would you want doing QA checks on your trigger? It costs money to treat people in a moral and good manner.

I won't even get into the equipment I have purchased which is over 1M just to make the SSA.

We have become used to Walmart-like products in this country. Made cheap at the expense of the workers and the environment. Buy it, use it a year and throw it away.

Low volume, innovative, machined instrument quality gun parts made in a law abiding USA shop? Triggers your great grand kids who are not born yet will whistle and say "man that trigger that grand pappy has in this gun is killer!"

They will never be inexpensive.



First thanks to you and everyone for the response(s). It's funny, after I posted this last night the thought of liability insurance popped into my head and I had never even took that into consideration.

I think it's fantastic that you take care of your employees It's good to know the brand of trigger I use comes from a good company. With that said I have a marketing question for you. Have you ever looked at the option of lowering your price with the intent of luring a buyer back to your product more often. For example, let's say the SSA sold for 150 instead of 270, could you make more money if more AR builders bought 2 triggers from you at 150 instead of 1 trigger at 270? My point being, If more manufactures did this your average AR builder/shooter would have 2-4 rifles as opposed to 1-2? And it also might lure the person that is going to build just one AR do to limited funds?
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 12:30:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sagmill:
Good observation

As the maker of said trigger in Op's post and one who did not run a business before starting this one let me comment.

A manufacturer who takes pennies worth of steel and can turn this steel into useful products is looked at like a host by a swarm of parasites. Everyone has his hand out. From local gov, county gov, state gov, fed gov, insurance co, health ins co, workmans comp, unemployment ins, elect co., gas co etc Its insane really. For what we pay in liability insurance I can buy a new 3 series BMW every year. Workmans comp a nice Harley. Company health insurance.....5 series 2010 BMW (yes I like BMWs although I don't have one now....no time to work on my old E28s)

I can hire people and offer $8hr with no bennies to work in a shithole or I can pay a living wage, offer good HMO health insurance, a 401 K plan with nice co match, quarterly bonuses, vacation time, flex time, plenty of overtime, company paid skill training, opportunities for advancement and a comfortable work environment. Which worker would you want doing QA checks on your trigger? It costs money to treat people in a moral and good manner.

I won't even get into the equipment I have purchased which is over 1M just to make the SSA.

We have become used to Walmart-like products in this country. Made cheap at the expense of the workers and the environment. Buy it, use it a year and throw it away.

Low volume, innovative, machined instrument quality gun parts made in a law abiding USA shop? Triggers your great grand kids who are not born yet will whistle and say "man that trigger that grand pappy has in this gun is killer!"

They will never be inexpensive.

This.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 12:38:41 AM EDT
I love my Timney Skeletons.


LOVE them.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 1:03:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sagmill:
Good observation

As the maker of said trigger in Op's post and one who did not run a business before starting this one let me comment.

A manufacturer who takes pennies worth of steel and can turn this steel into useful products is looked at like a host by a swarm of parasites. Everyone has his hand out. From local gov, county gov, state gov, fed gov, insurance co, health ins co, workmans comp, unemployment ins, elect co., gas co etc Its insane really. For what we pay in liability insurance I can buy a new 3 series BMW every year. Workmans comp a nice Harley. Company health insurance.....5 series 2010 BMW (yes I like BMWs although I don't have one now....no time to work on my old E28s)

I can hire people and offer $8hr with no bennies to work in a shithole or I can pay a living wage, offer good HMO health insurance, a 401 K plan with nice co match, quarterly bonuses, vacation time, flex time, plenty of overtime, company paid skill training, opportunities for advancement and a comfortable work environment. Which worker would you want doing QA checks on your trigger? It costs money to treat people in a moral and good manner.

I won't even get into the equipment I have purchased which is over 1M just to make the SSA.

We have become used to Walmart-like products in this country. Made cheap at the expense of the workers and the environment. Buy it, use it a year and throw it away.

Low volume, innovative, machined instrument quality gun parts made in a law abiding USA shop? Triggers your great grand kids who are not born yet will whistle and say "man that trigger that grand pappy has in this gun is killer!"

They will never be inexpensive.



I'll take the $8/hr guy. Where do I send my money for cheap triggers?





Link Posted: 9/12/2010 8:33:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sagmill:
Good observation

As the maker of said trigger in Op's post and one who did not run a business before starting this one let me comment.

A manufacturer who takes pennies worth of steel and can turn this steel into useful products is looked at like a host by a swarm of parasites. Everyone has his hand out. From local gov, county gov, state gov, fed gov, insurance co, health ins co, workmans comp, unemployment ins, elect co., gas co etc Its insane really. For what we pay in liability insurance I can buy a new 3 series BMW every year. Workmans comp a nice Harley. Company health insurance.....5 series 2010 BMW (yes I like BMWs although I don't have one now....no time to work on my old E28s)

I can hire people and offer $8hr with no bennies to work in a shithole or I can pay a living wage, offer good HMO health insurance, a 401 K plan with nice co match, quarterly bonuses, vacation time, flex time, plenty of overtime, company paid skill training, opportunities for advancement and a comfortable work environment. Which worker would you want doing QA checks on your trigger? It costs money to treat people in a moral and good manner.

I won't even get into the equipment I have purchased which is over 1M just to make the SSA.

We have become used to Walmart-like products in this country. Made cheap at the expense of the workers and the environment. Buy it, use it a year and throw it away.

Low volume, innovative, machined instrument quality gun parts made in a law abiding USA shop? Triggers your great grand kids who are not born yet will whistle and say "man that trigger that grand pappy has in this gun is killer!"

They will never be inexpensive.


Kudos to you for taking care of your workers! I work in an enviornment where pay raises are not based on job performance. The slackers get the same % that I do. Pride is the only thing that keeps me going and I'm afraid one of these days it's gonna run out, it's wearing very thin right now.

At any rate, I am a DIY'er. I have put my rifles together myself and helped friends do the same. There are some posts in the tech threads that show how to tune a stock trigger with great results. That is the route I'm going on my next build (20" upper) because I can't justify ~$200 or more on just a trigger. For guys who are not handy around a wrench and want a better trigger, this is the route you'll have to go. Supply and demand. You want it, he'll make it. He'll charge whatever the market will bear.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 8:45:10 AM EDT
After working in the firearms manufacturing business for a little over 17 years,most all firearms and accessories are marked up a ridiculous amount. Some isn't. Yes, companies have bills to pay, employees to pay. But some businesses are way top heavy in the management area compared to the labor force in the same company. That is where the outrageous prices come from.

Like it or not, some companies know we will pay for these gadgets and they price them accordingly.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 8:50:44 AM EDT
1. Manufacture triggers.

2. ?????

3. PROFIT!





(derp)



Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:17:31 AM EDT
I'm betting that liability insurance for a trigger manufacturer is just a bit spendy.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 10:17:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sagmill:
Good observation

As the maker of said trigger in Op's post and one who did not run a business before starting this one let me comment.

A manufacturer who takes pennies worth of steel and can turn this steel into useful products is looked at like a host by a swarm of parasites. Everyone has his hand out. From local gov, county gov, state gov, fed gov, insurance co, health ins co, workmans comp, unemployment ins, elect co., gas co etc Its insane really. For what we pay in liability insurance I can buy a new 3 series BMW every year. Workmans comp a nice Harley. Company health insurance.....5 series 2010 BMW (yes I like BMWs although I don't have one now....no time to work on my old E28s)

I can hire people and offer $8hr with no bennies to work in a shithole or I can pay a living wage, offer good HMO health insurance, a 401 K plan with nice co match, quarterly bonuses, vacation time, flex time, plenty of overtime, company paid skill training, opportunities for advancement and a comfortable work environment. Which worker would you want doing QA checks on your trigger? It costs money to treat people in a moral and good manner.

I won't even get into the equipment I have purchased which is over 1M just to make the SSA.

We have become used to Walmart-like products in this country. Made cheap at the expense of the workers and the environment. Buy it, use it a year and throw it away.

Low volume, innovative, machined instrument quality gun parts made in a law abiding USA shop? Triggers your great grand kids who are not born yet will whistle and say "man that trigger that grand pappy has in this gun is killer!"

They will never be inexpensive.

And your SSA triggers are in all of my ARs for that very reason!
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 10:31:01 AM EDT
Design and make your own triggers, get back to us when they are as good (or better) as a Geissele and you are selling them for under $10.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 3:12:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KA3B:
Design and make your own triggers, get back to us when they are as good (or better) as a Geissele and you are selling them for under $10.


I knew the smart asses would come out. Congratulations, you win.
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