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Posted: 9/10/2010 11:38:37 AM EDT
THIS THREAD IS NOT A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TO BURN THE KORAN.

So burning a book is legal. It is protected by law. I can understand the media giving you shit for it and people giving you shit for it.

In my opinion though, the pastor who planned on burning the Koran has ben harrassed by the government. I feel the government has noright to be calling this man and sending FBI agents to his house to scare him about using his right to free speech.

When the government takes your land they don't pay you what it is worth AFTER the land is doomed and nobody wants to buy it. They pay you market value of the property BEFORE they drove it down with the decision to steal it. That is because they recognize their actions have affected your land value.


When you have the president, the FBI , the defense secretary all confronting you personally don't you think your right to speak freely ewithout government interference has already been violated?


I have no want to burn a koran but Im temped to do it just to tell the government to piss off and if I was the pastor I would specifically say " i was thinking about not doing it but since the government feels it can intimidate my right to free speech I will do it anyways to prove a point that Political correctness and the government interfering with our rights has gone too far"

what say you?

Has the GOVERNMENT violated the 1st by harrassing this man ?
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 11:47:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 12:00:28 PM EDT by Isenhelm]
I do not think the Gov should have contacted the man in any way at all about the subject.
They should not be intervening, they should not be making any comments about it UNLESS it is to state that he is within his rights and those rights are and will be protected.

The general should not have said anything about it, the Zero in chief, secretary of defense or the FBI.

They should keep to themselves their personal opinions and do their jobs and leave him to burn his qurans or whatever else he wants to do within his rights.

Edited- to rephrase without the 4 letter words
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 11:48:22 AM EDT
I think so but the majority will probably tell you the man was stupid and inciting violence so it was "different" for him.

The first amendment only exists for people who do not appear to be stupid or inciteful. Because as we all know, only this man was stupid, everyone else that burns something is unstupid. It doesn't matter that he wasn't yelling "death to XXXX" and the other practicers of the first amendment are chanting death threats.

This case was "different". They'll be hear in a minute, they are probably posting as I am typing this, then you will be enlightened.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 11:54:04 AM EDT
He'd have to do it and be stopped to have his rights violated... or be intimidated... but that's a whole 'nother court case.

What pisses me off is that the president and our government had a chance to stand up in front of the world and make the statement that we value the freedom of expression here, even if it is distasteful to some, and that we will not have our citizens threatened for exercising a right that is sacred to us. Of course, that would require having a government that doesn't have its lips firmly around the collective peener of the muslim and euro world.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 12:05:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By victorgonzales:
THIS THREAD IS NOT A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TO BURN THE KORAN.

So burning a book is legal. It is protected by law. I can understand the media giving you shit for it and people giving you shit for it.

In my opinion though, the pastor who planned on burning the Koran has ben harrassed by the government. I feel the government has noright to be calling this man and sending FBI agents to his house to scare him about using his right to free speech.

When the government takes your land they don't pay you what it is worth AFTER the land is doomed and nobody wants to buy it. They pay you market value of the property BEFORE they drove it down with the decision to steal it. That is because they recognize their actions have affected your land value.


When you have the president, the FBI , the defense secretary all confronting you personally don't you think your right to speak freely ewithout government interference has already been violated?


I have no want to burn a koran but Im temped to do it just to tell the government to piss off and if I was the pastor I would specifically say " i was thinking about not doing it but since the government feels it can intimidate my right to free speech I will do it anyways to prove a point that Political correctness and the government interfering with our rights has gone too far"

what say you?

Has the GOVERNMENT violated the 1st by harrassing this man ?



To my knowledge the government hasn't old him he can't burn his pile of korans, nor has it made any direct threats of retaliation if he does. It seems the government has tried to convince him not to do it by explaining the potential ramifications of doing so, but that does not amount to a 1A violation.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 1:25:35 PM EDT
Yes, I do think the FBI violated his civil rights.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 1:33:25 PM EDT
Laura Ingraham played a clip this morning of Pat Robertson saying US Marshalls should be sent in to stop the burning from happening. It's unfathomable that an American would say such a thing.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 1:36:03 PM EDT
Do we have any information on what exactly the FBI said to him?
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 1:37:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By victorgonzales:
THIS THREAD IS NOT A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TO BURN THE KORAN.

So burning a book is legal. It is protected by law. I can understand the media giving you shit for it and people giving you shit for it.

In my opinion though, the pastor who planned on burning the Koran has ben harrassed by the government. I feel the government has noright to be calling this man and sending FBI agents to his house to scare him about using his right to free speech.

When the government takes your land they don't pay you what it is worth AFTER the land is doomed and nobody wants to buy it. They pay you market value of the property BEFORE they drove it down with the decision to steal it. That is because they recognize their actions have affected your land value.


When you have the president, the FBI , the defense secretary all confronting you personally don't you think your right to speak freely ewithout government interference has already been violated?


I have no want to burn a koran but Im temped to do it just to tell the government to piss off and if I was the pastor I would specifically say " i was thinking about not doing it but since the government feels it can intimidate my right to free speech I will do it anyways to prove a point that Political correctness and the government interfering with our rights has gone too far"

what say you?

Has the GOVERNMENT violated the 1st by harrassing this man ?

No.

Unless they take direct action to prevent him from executing his rights, no violation has ocurred.

Informing him of the possible consequences of a very ill-advised use of his rights, that will put American troops in danger by decreasing local cooperation with US forces currently engaged in combat overseas...

Is something the FBI most certainly SHOULD do.


Link Posted: 9/10/2010 1:39:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VACaver:
Laura Ingraham played a clip this morning of Pat Robertson saying US Marshalls should be sent in to stop the burning from happening. It's unfathomable that an American would say such a thing.

and that is why the evangelical right is just as bad as the left.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 1:45:23 PM EDT
The second that our CIC opened his idiot mouth and gave support for the mosque at ground zero and then condemned the Koran burning.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 1:50:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JHMC79:
The second that our CIC opened his idiot mouth and gave support for the mosque at ground zero and then condemned the Koran burning.


None of that is violation of the 1st.

It is, however, one of the few things that Zero got right.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 1:50:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brundoggie:
Do we have any information on what exactly the FBI said to him?

No.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 1:54:10 PM EDT
At what point is the government violating the 1st amendment?
Now. Obunghole sicced the FBI shitheads on that minister to make trouble and shut him down. Does anyone not believe the IRS was right behind them to audit both the minister and his church?
Fuck Obunghole
Fuck the FBI
Fuck the IRS
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 2:00:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By victorgonzales:
THIS THREAD IS NOT A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TO BURN THE KORAN.

So burning a book is legal. It is protected by law. I can understand the media giving you shit for it and people giving you shit for it.

In my opinion though, the pastor who planned on burning the Koran has ben harrassed by the government. I feel the government has noright to be calling this man and sending FBI agents to his house to scare him about using his right to free speech.

When the government takes your land they don't pay you what it is worth AFTER the land is doomed and nobody wants to buy it. They pay you market value of the property BEFORE they drove it down with the decision to steal it. That is because they recognize their actions have affected your land value.


When you have the president, the FBI , the defense secretary all confronting you personally don't you think your right to speak freely ewithout government interference has already been violated?


I have no want to burn a koran but Im temped to do it just to tell the government to piss off and if I was the pastor I would specifically say " i was thinking about not doing it but since the government feels it can intimidate my right to free speech I will do it anyways to prove a point that Political correctness and the government interfering with our rights has gone too far"

what say you?

Has the GOVERNMENT violated the 1st by harrassing this man ?


It depends on who is exercising their rights.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 2:11:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rockthecasbah:
Originally Posted By victorgonzales:
THIS THREAD IS NOT A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TO BURN THE KORAN.

So burning a book is legal. It is protected by law. I can understand the media giving you shit for it and people giving you shit for it.

In my opinion though, the pastor who planned on burning the Koran has ben harrassed by the government. I feel the government has noright to be calling this man and sending FBI agents to his house to scare him about using his right to free speech.

When the government takes your land they don't pay you what it is worth AFTER the land is doomed and nobody wants to buy it. They pay you market value of the property BEFORE they drove it down with the decision to steal it. That is because they recognize their actions have affected your land value.


When you have the president, the FBI , the defense secretary all confronting you personally don't you think your right to speak freely ewithout government interference has already been violated?


I have no want to burn a koran but Im temped to do it just to tell the government to piss off and if I was the pastor I would specifically say " i was thinking about not doing it but since the government feels it can intimidate my right to free speech I will do it anyways to prove a point that Political correctness and the government interfering with our rights has gone too far"

what say you?

Has the GOVERNMENT violated the 1st by harrassing this man ?



To my knowledge the government hasn't old him he can't burn his pile of korans, nor has it made any direct threats of retaliation if he does. It seems the government has tried to convince him not to do it by explaining the potential ramifications of doing so, but that does not amount to a 1A violation.


Right, because the guy didnt have ANY idea that theyd get so mad about it? It took those smart fellers from the FBI to go and tell him that?

Please

The FBI (and whoever ordered them down there) violated his 1st amendment rights when they went down there and said "something" (we may never know what said) and suddenly he changed his mind.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 2:17:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ex_dsmr:
Originally Posted By rockthecasbah:
Originally Posted By victorgonzales:
THIS THREAD IS NOT A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TO BURN THE KORAN.

So burning a book is legal. It is protected by law. I can understand the media giving you shit for it and people giving you shit for it.

In my opinion though, the pastor who planned on burning the Koran has ben harrassed by the government. I feel the government has noright to be calling this man and sending FBI agents to his house to scare him about using his right to free speech.

When the government takes your land they don't pay you what it is worth AFTER the land is doomed and nobody wants to buy it. They pay you market value of the property BEFORE they drove it down with the decision to steal it. That is because they recognize their actions have affected your land value.


When you have the president, the FBI , the defense secretary all confronting you personally don't you think your right to speak freely ewithout government interference has already been violated?


I have no want to burn a koran but Im temped to do it just to tell the government to piss off and if I was the pastor I would specifically say " i was thinking about not doing it but since the government feels it can intimidate my right to free speech I will do it anyways to prove a point that Political correctness and the government interfering with our rights has gone too far"

what say you?

Has the GOVERNMENT violated the 1st by harrassing this man ?



To my knowledge the government hasn't old him he can't burn his pile of korans, nor has it made any direct threats of retaliation if he does. It seems the government has tried to convince him not to do it by explaining the potential ramifications of doing so, but that does not amount to a 1A violation.


Right, because the guy didnt have ANY idea that theyd get so mad about it? It took those smart fellers from the FBI to go and tell him that?

Please

The FBI (and whoever ordered them down there) violated his 1st amendment rights when they went down there and said "something" (we may never know what said) and suddenly he changed his mind.



Just because the FBI talks to you doesn't mean they're threatening you, violating your rights, or prohibiting you from doing anything.

What he wanted to do, while legal, poses a real security risk to him and his congregation. The FBI was well within their right to discuss those security issues and the potential risks of going ahead with him. That alone doesn't amount to a 1A violation.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 2:19:20 PM EDT
Thuggery plain and simple.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 2:24:46 PM EDT
They need to keep their noses out of it.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 2:26:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 2:27:07 PM EDT by bulldog1967]

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Thuggery plain and simple.
Ayup.

Pretty telling when the people who in the 60's used to rail about "The MAN", are now acting like "The MAN".

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 2:37:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NickySantoro:
At what point is the government violating the 1st amendment?
Now. Obunghole sicced the FBI shitheads on that minister to make trouble and shut him down. Does anyone not believe the IRS was right behind them to audit both the minister and his church?
Fuck Obunghole
Fuck the FBI
Fuck the IRS

His 'church' appears to be operating in violation of their tax-exempt status and SHOULD be audited.


Link Posted: 9/10/2010 4:32:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By victorgonzales:
THIS THREAD IS NOT A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TO BURN THE KORAN.

So burning a book is legal. It is protected by law. I can understand the media giving you shit for it and people giving you shit for it.

In my opinion though, the pastor who planned on burning the Koran has ben harrassed by the government. I feel the government has noright to be calling this man and sending FBI agents to his house to scare him about using his right to free speech.

When the government takes your land they don't pay you what it is worth AFTER the land is doomed and nobody wants to buy it. They pay you market value of the property BEFORE they drove it down with the decision to steal it. That is because they recognize their actions have affected your land value.


When you have the president, the FBI , the defense secretary all confronting you personally don't you think your right to speak freely ewithout government interference has already been violated?


I have no want to burn a koran but Im temped to do it just to tell the government to piss off and if I was the pastor I would specifically say " i was thinking about not doing it but since the government feels it can intimidate my right to free speech I will do it anyways to prove a point that Political correctness and the government interfering with our rights has gone too far"

what say you?

Has the GOVERNMENT violated the 1st by harrassing this man ?

No.

Unless they take direct action to prevent him from executing his rights, no violation has ocurred.

Informing him of the possible consequences of a very ill-advised use of his rights, that will put American troops in danger by decreasing local cooperation with US forces currently engaged in combat overseas...

Is something the FBI most certainly SHOULD do.


I think it is harassment. Government having an opinion is fine but contacting an individual about free speech repeatedly and sending agents is a violation to me. It is clearly intimidation.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 4:41:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By JHMC79:
The second that our CIC opened his idiot mouth and gave support for the mosque at ground zero and then condemned the Koran burning.


None of that is violation of the 1st.

It is, however, one of the few things that Zero got right.


Obama should have done neither as neither had anything to do with running the Federal .gov
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 4:52:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 4:52:18 PM EDT by RenegadeX]
If he said he was going to burn the bible, the US flag and shit on a Crucifix, nobody from the USG would care. We have become so pussified it is not funny. Imagine MacA, Ike, Hoover, or FDR telling the newspapers not to call the Japanese "Japs", it might offend them.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 4:57:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:


It is, however, one of the few things that Zero got right.

You should change your user name to Dave_A_Contrarian.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:00:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
If he said he was going to burn the bible, the US flag and shit on a Crucifix, nobody from the USG would care. We have become so pussified it is not funny. Imagine MacA, Ike, Hoover, or FDR telling the newspapers not to call the Japanese "Japs", it might offend them.

Our conduct regarding Japanese Americans in the 40s was DISGRACEFUL. Period.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:24:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By JHMC79:
The second that our CIC opened his idiot mouth and gave support for the mosque at ground zero and then condemned the Koran burning.


None of that is violation of the 1st.

It is, however, one of the few things that Zero got right.

No Zero only contraindicated himself on one hand he supported our rights by siding with the Mosque being built on Ground Zero.Then to totally flip flopped on our rights by calling out this guy Florida out
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:28:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 5:29:18 PM EDT by ThreeMike]
I AGREE VICTORGONZALES!

&

IBD_A

ETA: nevermind
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:34:13 PM EDT
Yes I feel they violated his rights, The mayor told the fire dept not to
give them a burn permit. There is no danger of fire, they have a large area
free of bush to use to burn. We have been getting plenty of rain.
The mayor has a score to settle with the church and is abusing his
power to stop him.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:38:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mosspointers:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By JHMC79:
The second that our CIC opened his idiot mouth and gave support for the mosque at ground zero and then condemned the Koran burning.


None of that is violation of the 1st.

It is, however, one of the few things that Zero got right.


Obama should have done neither as neither had anything to do with running the Federal .gov

This and Remember that Obama said the mosque issue was a state and city issue and
not a federal issue.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:42:50 PM EDT
People can call other people and tell them their idea is stupid and a bad one. Don't be a pussy; if you think you're in the right, light 'er up.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:43:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By NickySantoro:
At what point is the government violating the 1st amendment?
Now. Obunghole sicced the FBI shitheads on that minister to make trouble and shut him down. Does anyone not believe the IRS was right behind them to audit both the minister and his church?
Fuck Obunghole
Fuck the FBI
Fuck the IRS

His 'church' appears to be operating in violation of their tax-exempt status and SHOULD be audited.



But of course any Mosque muppets who promote hatred of the US are still exempt from such fascist tyranny, right comrade Dave A?

Seriously Dave A, do your nation a big favor and just exit already.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:43:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Banditman:

Originally Posted By Mosspointers:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By JHMC79:
The second that our CIC opened his idiot mouth and gave support for the mosque at ground zero and then condemned the Koran burning.


None of that is violation of the 1st.

It is, however, one of the few things that Zero got right.


Obama should have done neither as neither had anything to do with running the Federal .gov

This and Remember that Obama said the mosque issue was a state and city issue and
not a federal issue.


Getting troops killed in Afghanistan and fucking up our foreign policy is most assuredly the federal government's fucking problem.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:46:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By victorgonzales:


Has the GOVERNMENT violated the 1st by harrassing this man ?


Not a bit.

The fact that the First Amendment has forced the most powerful men in the world to PLEAD with and beg this man to not burn it, PROVES that the First Amendment not being violated.
Quite the contrary, actually.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:49:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 5:50:25 PM EDT by Banditman]

Originally Posted By badfish274:
Originally Posted By Banditman:

Originally Posted By Mosspointers:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By JHMC79:
The second that our CIC opened his idiot mouth and gave support for the mosque at ground zero and then condemned the Koran burning.


None of that is violation of the 1st.

It is, however, one of the few things that Zero got right.


Obama should have done neither as neither had anything to do with running the Federal .gov

This and Remember that Obama said the mosque issue was a state and city issue and
not a federal issue.


Getting troops killed in Afghanistan and fucking up our foreign policy is most assuredly the federal government's fucking problem.

How many troops has it got killed? Get real, these people get pissed off
like this all the time.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:52:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 5:54:36 PM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By kabob:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By JHMC79:
The second that our CIC opened his idiot mouth and gave support for the mosque at ground zero and then condemned the Koran burning.


None of that is violation of the 1st.

It is, however, one of the few things that Zero got right.

No Zero only contraindicated himself on one hand he supported our rights by siding with the Mosque being built on Ground Zero.Then to totally flip flopped on our rights by calling out this guy Florida out

The right to do something does not make it right to do it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with building a mosque a few blocks from ground zero... As I've said before, non-terrorist American Muslims were attacked on 9/11 too... This is not a theocratic nation, and Muslims that abide by our laws are welcome here - yes, I know, much to the dismay of some on this site... There is absolutely ZERO evidence of law-breaking on the part of the NY mosque folks...

There is everything wrong with putting US troops in danger & harming our war effort, for a publicity stunt conducted to try and 'save' a bankrupt church/business ensemble....
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:53:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Banditman:
How many troops has it got killed? Get real, these people get pissed off
like this all the time.


There have been demonstrations against this since June. Members here have explained how it is already creeping into their interactions with the locals they need to make friends with.

The State Department, Interpol, and the DoD have all put out reports saying this shit is causing major problems.

Next up is deaths.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:57:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 5:59:02 PM EDT by Banditman]

Originally Posted By badfish274:
Originally Posted By Banditman:
How many troops has it got killed? Get real, these people get pissed off
like this all the time.


There have been demonstrations against this since June. Members here have explained how it is already creeping into their interactions with the locals they need to make friends with.

The State Department, Interpol, and the DoD have all put out reports saying this shit is causing major problems.

Next up is deaths.

And there would be no deaths if this did not happen?

I don't agree with what he is doing, But I believe his 1 amendment rights
were violated, in the very least least by the Mayor and fire dept of Gainesville.

It is the media's fault more than anyone on how this became so publicized.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:02:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Banditman:

Originally Posted By badfish274:
Originally Posted By Banditman:
How many troops has it got killed? Get real, these people get pissed off
like this all the time.


There have been demonstrations against this since June. Members here have explained how it is already creeping into their interactions with the locals they need to make friends with.

The State Department, Interpol, and the DoD have all put out reports saying this shit is causing major problems.

Next up is deaths.

And there would be no deaths if this did not happen?

I don't agree with what he is doing, But I believe his 1 amendment rights
were violated, in the very least least by the Mayor and fire dept of Gainesville.





Have you read the news for the last decade? I mean really read the news, kept up with it, done research into current events? Or do you just read headlines and thread titles and then run to the end of your chain and start barking?

Yes, people die constantly.

When Abu Ghraib broke, MORE people died. People died, but more people died because of Abu Ghraib than would have died without it.

Is making a point that literally everyone already knows - that some Muslims will riot over trivial matters - important enough to get a few more humvees blown up? A few more kids dead? A few more sons and daughters buried at Arlington?
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:07:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Banditman:

Originally Posted By badfish274:
Originally Posted By Banditman:
How many troops has it got killed? Get real, these people get pissed off
like this all the time.


There have been demonstrations against this since June. Members here have explained how it is already creeping into their interactions with the locals they need to make friends with.

The State Department, Interpol, and the DoD have all put out reports saying this shit is causing major problems.

Next up is deaths.

And there would be no deaths if this did not happen?




From 8,000 miles away, that's an easy attitude to adopt.

But if you are one of 6 guys living with a platoon of Afghans in a remote area, and one day you notice that nobody's smiling...

...it has a bit more gravity as an issue.








Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:08:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By badfish274:
Originally Posted By Banditman:

Originally Posted By badfish274:
Originally Posted By Banditman:
How many troops has it got killed? Get real, these people get pissed off
like this all the time.


There have been demonstrations against this since June. Members here have explained how it is already creeping into their interactions with the locals they need to make friends with.

The State Department, Interpol, and the DoD have all put out reports saying this shit is causing major problems.

Next up is deaths.

And there would be no deaths if this did not happen?

I don't agree with what he is doing, But I believe his 1 amendment rights
were violated, in the very least least by the Mayor and fire dept of Gainesville.





Have you read the news for the last decade? I mean really read the news, kept up with it, done research into current events? Or do you just read headlines and thread titles and then run to the end of your chain and start barking?

Yes, people die constantly.

When Abu Ghraib broke, MORE people died. People died, but more people died because of Abu Ghraib than would have died without it.

Is making a point that literally everyone already knows - that some Muslims will riot over trivial matters - important enough to get a few more humvees blown up? A few more kids dead? A few more sons and daughters buried at Arlington?

The media is to blame more than anyone.

Yes I can read and the subject of this thread is about 1st amendment rights, not if what he is doing
is right or wrong.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:16:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Banditman:


The media is to blame more than anyone.




No. The media is the media and will do what the media does.

If you decide to leak photos of Abu Ghraib (or sue to have the released and then published) it is YOU who are responsible for the second and third order effects.
These things are too predictable to play dumb or blame the media.








Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:11:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 7:16:59 PM EDT by victorgonzales]

Originally Posted By badfish274:
Originally Posted By Banditman:

Originally Posted By Mosspointers:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By JHMC79:
The second that our CIC opened his idiot mouth and gave support for the mosque at ground zero and then condemned the Koran burning.


None of that is violation of the 1st.

It is, however, one of the few things that Zero got right.


Obama should have done neither as neither had anything to do with running the Federal .gov

This and Remember that Obama said the mosque issue was a state and city issue and
not a federal issue.


Getting troops killed in Afghanistan and fucking up our foreign policy is most assuredly the federal government's fucking problem.

let me run something by you real quick.


If people in the middle east will decide it's time to kill Americans every time somebod shit talks islam then the ONLY way we will ever be safe is through censorship of the first amendment regarding islam amd defacto slaver to islam. That would pretty much mean that troops dying over there right now is a waste of life because Ill be damned if we are not allowed to say what we want in this country and ill be the second person to go to jail for it if someone is ever charged with a crime simply for expressing themselves in a lawful manner.

It seems to me our rights are what the troops signed up to defend. Either defend it with your life or don't sign up. But don't expect americans to be censored by a foreign power. If burning a koran brings out those who would murder people for being a non believer perhaps the generals should use it as a strategy over there to flush out the real enemy . burn hundreds of them and set up dommy targets for the jihadists and when they come shooting napalm the whole fucking block.

In short... If all we have to do to make peace with islam is never ever say anything that might offend them then FUCK PEACE!
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:19:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By badfish274:
Originally Posted By Banditman:
How many troops has it got killed? Get real, these people get pissed off
like this all the time.


There have been demonstrations against this since June. Members here have explained how it is already creeping into their interactions with the locals they need to make friends with.
The State Department, Interpol, and the DoD have all put out reports saying this shit is causing major problems.

Next up is deaths.


That's the fatal mistake - you assume they're going about this the right way, and they're not.

If 'the locals' are going to go Jihad over a burned book, they don't need to make friends, they need to recognize them as terrorists and act accordingly.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:23:40 PM EDT
Take a side defending a groups rights then sanction a different group exercising their's as it may offend the first group..

Thought provoking, that is.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:44:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 7:48:54 PM EDT by Cincinnatus]
Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Originally Posted By badfish274:
Originally Posted By Banditman:
How many troops has it got killed? Get real, these people get pissed off
like this all the time.


There have been demonstrations against this since June. Members here have explained how it is already creeping into their interactions with the locals they need to make friends with.
The State Department, Interpol, and the DoD have all put out reports saying this shit is causing major problems.

Next up is deaths.


That's the fatal mistake - you assume they're going about this the right way, and they're not.

If 'the locals' are going to go Jihad over a burned book, they don't need to make friends, they need to recognize them as terrorists and act accordingly.



When it comes to war and counterinsurgency, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Your demonstrated ignorance seems to know no bounds.

You just say one ignorant thing after another.

Now, I know you get offended by someone saying that your "opinion" on these matters carries little or no weight, but let's be honest here...
...you are completely clueless about these things.

I base this solely upon YOUR words.

I respect you RIGHT to speak about these things, but I have zero respect for your lack of knowledge and unfamiliarity with the subject matter.

Second guessing the observations of guys who've been there time and again, based on your internet acquired wisdom is something you should avoid.









Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:54:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By NickySantoro:
At what point is the government violating the 1st amendment?
Now. Obunghole sicced the FBI shitheads on that minister to make trouble and shut him down. Does anyone not believe the IRS was right behind them to audit both the minister and his church?
Fuck Obunghole
Fuck the FBI
Fuck the IRS

His 'church' appears to be operating in violation of their tax-exempt status and SHOULD be audited.




how so?
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 8:09:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 8:25:18 PM EDT by destaccado]
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Originally Posted By badfish274:
Originally Posted By Banditman:
How many troops has it got killed? Get real, these people get pissed off
like this all the time.


There have been demonstrations against this since June. Members here have explained how it is already creeping into their interactions with the locals they need to make friends with.
The State Department, Interpol, and the DoD have all put out reports saying this shit is causing major problems.

Next up is deaths.


That's the fatal mistake - you assume they're going about this the right way, and they're not.

If 'the locals' are going to go Jihad over a burned book, they don't need to make friends, they need to recognize them as terrorists and act accordingly.



When it comes to war and counterinsurgency, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Your demonstrated ignorance seems to know no bounds.

You just say one ignorant thing after another.

Now, I know you get offended by someone saying that your "opinion" on these matters carries little or no weight, but let's be honest here...
...you are completely clueless about these things.

I base this solely upon YOUR words.

I respect you RIGHT to speak about these things, but I have zero respect for your lack of knowledge and unfamiliarity with the subject matter.

Second guessing the observations of guys who've been there time and again, based on your internet acquired wisdom is something you should avoid.











This issue has demonstrated how hypocritical and unreasonable even mainstream Islam is. Lets pack up and go home and leave them to their shit boxes.

Cincinnatus - you're sitting here condoning the fact that some third-world nut jobs are on the verge of violence over the actions of one crackpot in Florida. If those are the type of people that they are - we don't need them as our friends, allies, or partners. Perhaps its time for a change in perspective rather than blindly following the same broken path and then complaining that some no-name Florida pastor is messing it up...

Going all ape shit on another member here as if your military experience makes your opinion of the situation any more factual then his is BS. Thanks for your service - please get off your high horse.

Maybe you should read a book on the long and storied history of Afghanistan and of nations trying to change or conquer it and tell me the likelihood of ten years of wishy-washy American involvement changing its long-term political dynamics.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 8:25:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 8:37:28 PM EDT by Cincinnatus]
Originally Posted By destaccado:
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Originally Posted By badfish274:
Originally Posted By Banditman:
How many troops has it got killed? Get real, these people get pissed off
like this all the time.


There have been demonstrations against this since June. Members here have explained how it is already creeping into their interactions with the locals they need to make friends with.
The State Department, Interpol, and the DoD have all put out reports saying this shit is causing major problems.

Next up is deaths.


That's the fatal mistake - you assume they're going about this the right way, and they're not.

If 'the locals' are going to go Jihad over a burned book, they don't need to make friends, they need to recognize them as terrorists and act accordingly.



When it comes to war and counterinsurgency, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Your demonstrated ignorance seems to know no bounds.

You just say one ignorant thing after another.

Now, I know you get offended by someone saying that your "opinion" on these matters carries little or no weight, but let's be honest here...
...you are completely clueless about these things.

I base this solely upon YOUR words.

I respect you RIGHT to speak about these things, but I have zero respect for your lack of knowledge and unfamiliarity with the subject matter.

Second guessing the observations of guys who've been there time and again, based on your internet acquired wisdom is something you should avoid.











This issue has demonstrated how hypocritical and unreasonable even mainstream Islam is.


You might not understand this, but this issue has NOTHING to do with whether Islam is good, bad, hypocritical, unreasonable, or anything else.

This is not a debate between Western Civilization and the Islamic World.
There IS no debate.
Western Civilization is SUPERIOR, and we must defend it in order to survive as a culture, a country and a people.

To do this, we must be smart and do things deliberately and with purpose.

We must ALSO understand our own Constitution, and recognize that mere criticism of actions, opinions or words does NOT equal suppression of the rights to EXPRESS those ideas.

We have work to do, and this nonsense is fodder for Jerry Springer.


Cincinnatus - you're sitting here condoning the fact that some third-world nut jobs are on the verge of violence over the actions of one crackpot in Florida.

No. I have done no such thing.

I observe facts. I do not condone these things -I just see them as they are.

If those are the type of people that they are - we don't need them as our friends, allies, or partners.


We need to be in the vicinity of those we need to kill.
We can't do it remotely or from space.
We need to collect information and targeting data that allows us to achieve our ends.

If that means I make nice with a goat herder in order to find an Al Qaida leader -so be it.


Perhaps its time for a change in perspective rather than blindly following the same broken path and then complaining that some no-name Florida pastor is messing it up...

Going all ape shit on another member here as if your military experience makes your opinion of the situation any more factual then his is BS.


Let me see if I got this straight...

There are people who actually go to this place and observe things as they are on the ground...

...and then there are those who know little, have never been there, and never seen anything remotely similar.

And you believe that it's "BS" to consider the opinion that is based on observation and BEING THERE to be more "factual" than the opinion that is based on assumption and the internet?

Really?



Thanks for your service - please get off your high horse.

Maybe you should read a book on the long and storied history of Afghanistan and would-be nations trying to change or conquer it and tell me the likelihood of ten years of wishy-washy American involvement changing its long-term political dynamics.


I've read that book, those books, books written by the Russians, British, Kipling, Afghan poetry, the Koran, etc, etc.
That plus going there QUITE often and again for "practical application".

I'm sorry you see that as a "high horse", most of us just see it as experience-based knowledge, tempered with intense academic studies.

This site is filled with many who fight this war and do so professionally. There are also those who do not.








Link Posted: 9/10/2010 8:36:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 8:36:47 PM EDT by MrMojoRising]
Originally Posted By nukldragr:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By NickySantoro:
At what point is the government violating the 1st amendment?
Now. Obunghole sicced the FBI shitheads on that minister to make trouble and shut him down. Does anyone not believe the IRS was right behind them to audit both the minister and his church?
Fuck Obunghole
Fuck the FBI
Fuck the IRS

His 'church' appears to be operating in violation of their tax-exempt status and SHOULD be audited.




how so?



The allegations are that he is running one or more for profit businesses on the church property and with church resources.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 8:44:36 PM EDT
The government is violating the 1st Amendment the MOMENT that it even mentions 1st Amendment.
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