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Posted: 9/8/2010 8:07:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:11:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 8:12:35 PM EDT by Tekka]
They wouldn't be able to pass biometric tests. 'bout the only thing that they might pass is a DNA test. Some people actually have dual DNA. Their own and the DNA of a twin or triplet.

BTW, if you write the book and use the dual DNA thing. I want to be credited... just for shits and gigles.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:11:42 PM EDT
No...
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:11:59 PM EDT
fingerprints do not match.

not sure about the rest.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:12:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:13:51 PM EDT
have them transplant the fingers and eyes
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:14:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Originally Posted By Tekka:
They wouldn't be able to pass biometric tests. 'bout the only thing that they might pass is a DNA test. Some people actually have duel DNA. Their own and the DNA of a twin or triplet.


Well there goes that plot element... oh well... back to the drawing board

Sorry about that
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:14:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:15:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:18:08 PM EDT
No!
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:18:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:23:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:24:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Originally Posted By Tekka:
They wouldn't be able to pass biometric tests. 'bout the only thing that they might pass is a DNA test. Some people actually have duel DNA. Their own and the DNA of a twin or triplet.


Well there goes that plot element... oh well... back to the drawing board

don't count it out yet. you are forgetting that biometric tests can be easily tricked using impressions from the real finger prints. Whoever the people are who setup this twin in power surely would have the ability to handle such a thing.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:27:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:27:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 8:28:07 PM EDT by Tekka]

Originally Posted By Kevin993:

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Originally Posted By Tekka:
They wouldn't be able to pass biometric tests. 'bout the only thing that they might pass is a DNA test. Some people actually have duel DNA. Their own and the DNA of a twin or triplet.


Well there goes that plot element... oh well... back to the drawing board

don't count it out yet. you are forgetting that biometric tests can be easily tricked using impressions from the real finger prints. Whoever the people are who setup this twin in power surely would have the ability to handle such a thing.

There are more advanced tests which can scan your blood vessels and capillaries. You can't beat those.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:30:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 8:32:24 PM EDT by ttushooter]
Things like fingerprint and retinal scans would not match.

Eta: I see this has been pretty well covered. So I bid you all a good evening and a pleasent morrow. (ttushooter grabs his tophat and overcoat and make his way to the door)
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:34:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
I'm considering writing a novel, I spend so much time writing for a living I figured why not write for fun... An idea I've been toying with for awhile. In any event, one of the plot twists I was thinking about was a head of state with a twin. The head of state dies in an act of war. As the nation rebuilds the remnants of the government press the twin into service as a form of continuity to impress upon the public that the leadership remains in place. Problem is all the state secrets and higher level military authorizations (such as nuclear codes) are locked down by a series of biometric identification methods. Would a twin have the same fingerprints, retina patterns, etc. Could they step in and pass the authentication procedures?

What other high tech identification methodologies are there in use? Could an identical twin pass them? Don't need to know how they work, just an idea if a twin could pass biometirc verification or if there are key differences that would preclude that.




I think Eagle Eye did this.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:35:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:35:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 8:36:47 PM EDT by Bohr_Adam]
As mentioned, they would not match.

In terms of other technologies:

Facial recognition is considered biometrics, iris scans are commonly used these days vice retina scans, and we also have something called gait recognition that I have not personally seen used. Voice is available as well.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:37:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
gait recognition that I have not personally seen used.


Gait?

Does it measure how fat you are or something?
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:38:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:38:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Never heard of it, thanks for the heads-up. Will look into it, don't want to rehash a plot... in the very least I would want to give it a unique twist

Bleh, don't let that deter, there's barely anything that hasn't been done at some point by now. Just make the story good and don't worry about that.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:39:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:40:29 PM EDT
On all counts no. None of their biometric signatures would match. The odds of it being possible are silly high.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:42:56 PM EDT
Let us know what you come up with!
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:48:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:49:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Kevin993:

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Originally Posted By Tekka:
They wouldn't be able to pass biometric tests. 'bout the only thing that they might pass is a DNA test. Some people actually have duel DNA. Their own and the DNA of a twin or triplet.


Well there goes that plot element... oh well... back to the drawing board

don't count it out yet. you are forgetting that biometric tests can be easily tricked using impressions from the real finger prints. Whoever the people are who setup this twin in power surely would have the ability to handle such a thing.


Maybe in 1995 but not anymore.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:50:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Originally Posted By straightshooter21:
Let us know what you come up with!


Well I'm envisioning a massive cover-up conspiracy to keep lawful power out of the hands of a psychotic "Speaker" type who would destroy the nation and a lot of soul searching and moral dilemmas faced by those sworn to protect the nation and constitution but have to help perpetuate a massive lie to keep the lawful successor out of power, and the aforementioned threats to the state when the leader can not fully employ all of the state's resources because he is locked out.

While it definitely sounds most intriguing, I'm not sure I can buy that the military won't just crack into its own stuff using whatever method necessary since there's nothing to stop them from doing so and they sure as hell have a good reason.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:52:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By g3shooter:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
gait recognition that I have not personally seen used.


Gait?

Does it measure how fat you are or something?


How you walk.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:56:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
As mentioned, they would not match.

In terms of other technologies:

Facial recognition is considered biometrics, iris scans are commonly used these days vice retina scans, and we also have something called gait recognition that I have not personally seen used. Voice is available as well.


Thanks. The nation would not necessarily be the US. Would it be safe to assume that most other advanced nations such as Western European powers, Japan, Israel and the like would have much of this technology? I would assume it is not unique to our command and control structure.


Much of the tech is open source and commercially available, but I am only familiar with US only systems. Your Google-fu would be no less valid than mine.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:59:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 9:01:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 9:02:32 PM EDT
I am an identical twin.

At my twin brother's office there is a biometric machine (hand print reader - place hand, palm down with fingers spread, on the scanner) one must use to enter the building from the parking garage. My brother's hand is registered with the machine. Incidentally, I can insert my hand into the reader and get the green light to enter the building.

This is the only biometric machine I have ever encountered so I can't speculate on other machines, but in this instance, with this particular machine, it works. I guess its obviously got something to do wiith the type/sensitivity of the machine.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 9:03:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
The military may or may not know the twin is standing in, if they do know it would be at the highest levels and they might share sympathy with wanting to keep an anti-military leftist from taking power via succession. Clearly the Secret Service would have to know and the spook community... maybe a shadow government utilizing the twin as a front to buy time until the next election. Not really a truly rogue government looking for power, but using the twin as a means to an end... prevent the psychotic next in line from taking power on a temp basis and providing stability until the next legitimate election can be held. Still trying to work it all out. Kind of like Tom Clancy rewriting "Dave."



No shit, that is EXACTLY what I thought when I read your OP.

I can buy that. Just make sure you've also got an explanation for the Speaker of the House not "getting drunk" and "having an automobile accident" or something along those lines. Offing him/her would probably require significantly less effort and spin than getting and keeping the imposter in place.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 9:04:57 PM EDT
as a writer, when in doubt––invert.

dunno if this works for the project you're imagining, but reading through the thread with your idea in mind, the first thing that came into my head was "who died––the actual head of state or the twin?".

that is, we presume that the actual guy––president bob––died in office. then comes...the twin in some sort of substitute capacity (dumas-style). but what if president bob wasn't actually bob when he died? to go full melodrama here, let's say that his name is actually joe, and he has a twin named bob. bob didn't want to be president––he wanted to be a tibetan rugmaker in thailand or something. but bob is the 'electable' one, since joe killed a hooker once by doing lines of coke off her ass. so, since bob doesn't really care, he 'trades' lives with joe––joe becomes bob, gets elected, and so on. then he dies.

this isn't actually a proposal for a plot line, but you see where i'm going––play against expectations. a good example of this is the movie 'shattered' with tom beringer. older movie, but worth a watch.

when in doubt, invert.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 9:08:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 9:13:51 PM EDT
I wonder when we will start using biometric systems to "enroll" citizens in the United States.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 9:14:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
I wonder when we will start using biometric systems to "enroll" citizens in the United States.


Probably after the next terrorist attack. It'll be for our own good.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 9:16:43 PM EDT
Actually, their fingerprints are different, if nothing else.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 9:17:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Zack3g:
fingerprints do not match.

not sure about the rest.

This checked it myself against 3 sets of twins and one set of triplets...friction ridges all had distinct differentiations.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 9:18:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gulbrandr2:
Actually, their fingerprints are different, if nothing else.

Very interesting topic.

http://multiples.about.com/cs/funfacts/a/twinfingerprint.htm
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 9:19:45 PM EDT
Let us know when you finish the book.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 9:31:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Originally Posted By Kevin993:

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Originally Posted By Tekka:
They wouldn't be able to pass biometric tests. 'bout the only thing that they might pass is a DNA test. Some people actually have duel DNA. Their own and the DNA of a twin or triplet.


Well there goes that plot element... oh well... back to the drawing board

don't count it out yet. you are forgetting that biometric tests can be easily tricked using impressions from the real finger prints. Whoever the people are who setup this twin in power surely would have the ability to handle such a thing.


Damn you, I just had my mind working the mechanics of the twin not being able to pass the biometrics and the problems that would cause, now you throw this at me... hmmmmm. Which direction to go.

Make it a "Choose your own adventure" novel

Link Posted: 9/8/2010 9:37:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 9:38:28 PM EDT by Mak_380]
I recall a novel set in the 80's where a man was very good at covert ops. When the opfor got their hands on him, they did a myelogram, essentially mapping his nervous system. They told him about it as they released him, letting him know his usefulness was now severely degraded. Author could have been Brian Freemantle, but I'm not sure anymore. This sound familiar to anyone?

Edit to topic: If they were doing this in the 80's, what are the odds they are doing it today?
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 10:09:45 PM EDT
Some background reading for you:

Double Star

by Robert A. Heinlein. This is a book about a guy who has to serve as the double for a prominent political figure. The article referenced by the link also mentions some other books and some movies with similar themes.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 10:36:34 PM EDT
I think you can stick the dead guy's eyeball on a ball point pen, hold it up to the scanner....

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