The Bible only says that Noah and his wife, his three sons and their wives got onto the ark.  We know about Noah's lineage, but it doesn't mention anything about his son's wife's and what race they were.  Which means there were most definitely different races before the flood.
[red]Gen 7:13[/red]

Unlike two dimentional people I talk about a wide variety of topics. I post on the entire spectrum from "Holy shit Ithink this is funny" to "Very Serious Discussions." A person with a marginal education cand deduce one kind of topic from the other. On the occassion that a person misinterprets a serious topic for a joke or a joke for a serious topic I correct them.

So there would be little misunderstanding, I stated this would be a SERIOUS topic in the title.

Okay, Steyr, it seems to me like you're getting a few good answers mixed in with a lot of dispensationalist crap and Hal Lindsey's interpretation of the book of Revelation.

Here's my shot at answering your questions.  First of all, I don't completely agree with all your stated assumptions.  You say that Jews don't believe in Jesus.  That's too much of a generalization for me.  There have been Jews in the past and are Jews today who believe in Jesus, whether you define "Jew" by heredity or by religious practice.  If your point is that the nation of Israel is no more Christian than any other nation, I'd agree with that, but your statement was on an individual level, so I'd want to modify it.

Secondly, you say that Jews are God's chosen people and have a reservation in heaven.  Those are two separate things, and I wouldn't make the linkage the way you did.  God promised Abraham, "I will make you a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.  I will bless those who bless you and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." (Genesis 12:2-3)  To Abraham's grandson Jacob, God said, "I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac.  I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.  Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south.  All people on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.  I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land.  I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you." (Genesis 28:13-15) Later, God said to Moses, "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself.  Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession.  Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.'  These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites." (Exodus 19:3-6, which just precedes the giving of the Ten Commandments and the rest of the Law)  So yes, the Jews are God's chosen people.  The way I understand it is that this is both because they had a special place in his heart as Abraham's and Jacob's descendants and because he intended them to show to the rest of the world what God was like and draw people to God out of the whole earth.  Ultimately this is fulfilled in Christ, through whom all people on earth are blessed.  I don't see, though, how this equates to all Jewish individuals having a reservation in heaven.

(cont.)
Jesus himself drew a distinction among Jews, some of whom he said God would have mercy upon and others whom he said would be damned.  Take a look at John 5:31-47, where Jesus is talking about witnesses who give testimony that he is the Christ.  He says that the Jewish Scriptures and the law of Moses all point to him, and that if they really believed the God who gave them those witnesses, they would accept Jesus as the Christ.  The fact that they reject Jesus as the Christ points out that they reject the God who sent Jesus and who gave them the Scriptures.  "But do not think that I will accuse you before the Father.  Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.  If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.  But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"  (John 5:45-47)  Jesus basically accuses them of being false Jews because they don't accept him.

John the Baptist, the Jewish prophet who preceded Jesus, said to the Pharisees and Sadducees, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?  Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.  And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.'  I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.  The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 3:7-10)  Having Abraham's genes is not a free ticket into heaven.  God wants us to turn from our evil ways to trust him instead.  John the Baptist applied that to the Jews as well, before Jesus had died or even begun to teach.

(cont.)
Paul talks a lot about this in Romans 9-11, basically answering your question in depth.  For sake of space, I'll just hit a few highlights.  Why is Israel special? "Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs is the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.  Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised!"  But then he goes on to define Israel.  "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.  Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children.  On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.'  In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring."  Those who believe God as Abraham did are Abraham's children, the children of the promise.  Those who don't believe God, though they are Abraham's physical descendants, do not inherit the promise God made to Abraham.  Then Paul asks, "Is God unjust?  Not at all!  For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.'  It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."  Then he quotes the prophet Hosea, where God says, "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," and the prophet Isaiah, who says, "Though the number of Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only a remnant will be saved."  And why is this?  God wants people to respond to him with trust (faith), not a bunch of people whose hearts are cold and hard and evil but who perform a few rituals or have the right genetic heritage.  In fact, Paul writes, "What then shall we say?  That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.  Why not?  Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works."  He goes on to say, "there is no difference between the Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'"  Then Paul asks if this means that God has rejected Israel as his chosen people now that Christ has come.  He answers, "By no means!  I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.  God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew."  He recalls the example of the propeht Elijah, who had complained to God that he was the only follower of God left in Israel, and how God responded to him that in fact he still had seven thousand followers in Israel.  He talks some more about God's grace to the Gentiles, and then says, "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited:  Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.  And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:  'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.  And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.'"  I don't know really what he means by this last prophecy that all Israel will be saved, and Christian theologians don't agree on what he means by "Israel".

I've gotten a little long, but I hope I've given a decent answer to your question.

Ok, I'd like to get into this fray too, but am in the middle of doing my un-Godly taxes. (I hope these people get sued to the fullest extent allowed by law.) But just for a second here....

I strongly disagree with BostonTeaparty's statement, "a lot of dispensationalist crap", but from the posts here I can see why he says that.

Also, he cites about the jews that "Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs is the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises"

But then BTP goes on to cite, "there is no difference between the Jew and Gentile..."

This doesn't answer SteyrAUG's question of are the "Jews are Gods "chosen people"[?]

I believe I have a more clear answer to this apparent contrast. But I can't get into it right now. Give me a chance to get some personal issues done.

Ah'll be baaack.

Sorry, couldn't stay away. This was bothering me. Had to put taxes off a bit (just a small bit). Here's something I posted on another thread.

I believe that the bible has keys, perhaps actually sets of keys, to it's understanding. One of those keys are:

Rom 16:25 KJV, "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,according to the revelation of the mystery, WHICH WAS KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN." [emphasis mine]

AND/VERSUS

Acts 3:21 KJV "whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, WHICH GOD HATH SPOKEN by the mouth of all his holy prophets SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN." [emphasis mine]

The difference between something kept secret and something talked about since the world began is monumental. When you search it out you find out that the secret was the mystery of grace and the thing talked about was the law.

This will answer SteyrAUG's question of are the jews God's chosen people. The answer has to do with which time frame you're refering to: the dispensation of law or the dispensation of grace.

There are only two types of people in the bible: Jews and Gentiles. Under the law, the Jews were, in fact God's chosen people. This started with Abraham. The gentiles had to go through a jew to be saved.

Remember, the Canaanite woman, a gentile, asked Jesus to help her daughter who was "vexed with a devil". But Jesus would not answer her and said that He only came to help the Jews. She then let Jesus know that she understood where she, the gentile, stood, in the chain of blessings by saying "...yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from the masters table" (she recognizes that she has to go through a jew)(Matt 15:27, KJV).  Jesus admire's her faith and condones the help. This recognization was spoken about by the holy prophets under the law.

Under grace (today), the Jews were/are brought down to the level of the gentiles. "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek (Gentile)..." (Rom 9:12, KJV). No gentile today has to go through a jew for anything! The Jew today is not anyone special in God's eye. And this "melding", if you will, was kept secret until the time of Paul, "but now in made manifest..." (Rom 16:25, KJV) The "now" is todays dispensation of grace.

However, in the future, the Jew will once again be the apple of God's eye. That future will be after the rapture. The Jews will see their mistake and you non-beleivers will go on from there. But we are not at that point, yet!!!

Hopefully this quick explanation did justice to the clarificaiton of the issue. I'll be glad to continue in more depth if you're interested (but later).

StyerAug,
Excellent questions.

1. True.

2. People of the Jewish faith do not accept Jesus as the Messiah (savior).  There are people of the Jewish nationality who HAVE accepted Jesus, they converted and are thereby Christians.  These are known commonly as "Messianic Jews". It can get confusing.

3.  The Jewish race was chosen to do several things, chief among those:
 a.  Provide the "human" lineage of Jesus.     Mary the mother Jesus was a Jewess.
 b.  Proclaim the gospel throughout the world.  The Jewish authority at the time of Jesus rejected Him, however, scripture states that a remnant of 144,000 (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel) will one day spread the gospel.

3, 2nd part:  No, the Jewish people do NOT automatically get into heaven.  The New Testament is plain.  Everyone living after Jesus death and resurrection are subject to the same new covenant (rule):  Acceptance of Christ is mandatory for eternal life with the Father in Heaven.  Rejection of Christ will yield eternal life in hell without the Father.

"For ALL have sinned and fallen short..."  that includes me, you, and the Jews.

The gift is free.  The choice to accept it or reject is yours.

Oh and about Sammy Davis:  A person can believe in the Jewish faith without having a name like "Stein".  Davis was a Jew by faith, not by race.

I'm not educated [:E], but I'll give it a shot:

The contradiction stems from the mistaken assumption that being one of the chosen people confers some sort of benefit after death.  But according to the Old Testament, the blessings that were supposed to accompany Israel's convenant with God were all of the earthly variety.  

SteyrAug,
When considering such a question, what standard or authority do we need to use: the Bible. The Bible was written by inspiration of God (II Timothy 3:15-17, II Peter 1:21) and by these words we will be judged (John 12:48).

A. What does one need to do to become a Christian?

Hear the Gospel - for how else will one know how to be saved?  One can know that there is a God just by looking at the world that He created and the things therein (Romans 1:19-20), but one would not know anything about Him, His power, His love, His severity.  All that we know of Him and what he expects of us is from His word, the Bible. So, one must hear the gospel in order to believe the plan of salvation that God has set forth for us to follow.  Acts 2:37 Now when they heard...Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing,...Acts 19:5 When they heard this...

Believe - one must believe what he has heard concerning Christ as being the Son of God and being sent to this earth as our savior  (savior... John 1:29, John 3:16) Reference to Believe - Mark 16:16 He that believeth....  Acts 8:35-37 ...If thou believest...  Hebrews 11:6 ... for he that cometh to God must believe...

Repent - one must turn away from his life of sin and turn toward God.  Acts: 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent,...  Luke 13:3 ... except ye repent, ...
 
Confess His name - One must be willing to confess his belief in Jesus before men (Matthew 10:32-33 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men,...   Romans 10:9-10  That if thou shalt confess... We can see that some believed but would not confess his name because they loved the praises of men more than the praise of God (John 12:48)

be Baptized - this is an act of being immersed into water as demanded by the Gospel  (Acts 2:38 ... be baptized...  Acts 2:41 ...  received his word were baptized:     Acts 8:12-13,  Acts 8:35-39  and many others. Baptism is representative of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. We are buried with him in baptism and then as Christ was raised from the dead, we also are raised from a watery grave of baptism to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:3-4) (Galatians  3:27)

(cont.)

Remain Faithful - I Corinthians 15:58, II Timothy 4:7-8, Jude 3,   We read of the horrible description of those who have escaped the pollutions of the world, only to return, and there end is worst  then than before (III Peter 2:20-22)

So who needs this gospel? Everyone does. (Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.)  What happens to sinners?  Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death..., so we see that everyone is a sinner and therefore is condemned without the saving grace of  God through Christ. To whom is this gospel available?  Everyone (Romans 1:16, I Timothy 2:3-4,  II Peter 3:9)

So, as you have asked, what about the Jews.  A person who embraces the Jewish faith denies Christ as the Son of God.  He stills holds to the Old Law (Law of  Moses), but now, since Christ's coming, we are under a new law, the law of faith in Christ (Galatians 3:21-29).   The Old Law is described as a “schoolmaster” and in verse 25 the Bible states that we are no longer under a schoolmaster, therefore, no longer under the Old Law. Those who practice forms of Jewish faith still adhere to the Old Law, which we have just proved, has been done away with. (note: the Old Testament still has value in its ability to teach us many things  - Romans 15:4.  Therefore, one who practices any form of Jewish faith, denies Christ as the Son of God and savior of the world and are therefore lost. But there is hope! The Gospel is for all, as we have shown, and anyone Jew or Gentile, who obeys will be saved (Romans 1:16, I Corinthians 12:13).

P.S.   There are many, many , more Bible verses that could be referenced in the above. I hope this has been helpful. If you or anyone else has questions/comments feel free to e-mail me.
L.P.

Do the math.  Start with one.  Remove a rib.  Build a second one using parts (DNA) from the first one.  Now you have two.  After a period of time let them reproduce.  Now you have a bunch from the same source.  Drowned all but one family. Now you have Noah and his three sons plus their wives.  Only the three sons reproduce.  Noah's sons like all children exhibited different traits.  Since the sons were the only breeding stock left on the earth their particular DNA traits were carried down their family lines.

If the wives were different races the Bible would have said more about them.  Since when does it make something true if it is not mentioned?  The whole purpose of the Bible is so we do not need to guess about things.  

If you think that I am wrong on any of my Biblical post I suggest you find a minister that is faithful to the original languages (Studies using the original daily) and ask him for a clarification.  The original language is much more detailed than the King James or any other english version of the Bible.  If you do not have access to a scholar I can offer some suggestions.

Reading your post and your comments about "dispensationalist crap" I can tell you are not much of a student of the word.  You spend all of your time memorizing verses instead of studying their meaning.  In short you are a blow hard.  I suggest you find a pastor that studies in the original languages and get under his teaching.  People that study in the original languages generally do not have a problem with dispensations.  I can backup everything I said with the original language used in context.  Can you?  (Short answer please we already know you can type.)

Leadpoison, your cites for becoming a christian, I take it you mean being saved,  ("Repent - one must turn away from his life of sin and turn toward God. Acts: 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent,... Luke 13:3 ... except ye repent, ...)" are correct for a person under the law. But not for a person under grace. A big difference. Under grace you are saved by I Cor 15:1-8. There's no repentence under grace.

Tisk, tisk, tisk,  SteyrAUG,

Shame on you.

The fact that you posted this question on _THIS_ web site is proof enough that you are not looking for a "serious" answer.

Reading over your comments it is clear that you are just attempting a back door into bashing Israel and people of the Jewish faith be subtly driving a spike of religious differences between Christians and Jews.

And then 5s5 chimes in to the silliness.... hehee, you guys...

Nice try, and I am 'seriously' impressed with your paltry attempt to pose as someone actually looking for answers.

Guys,

I wouldn't waste your breath.

cheers!
--LS

Well crap my pants, the new guy has me.



Only one problem. My personal disdain for Israels relationship with the United States is well known and I've never been subtle about it. However that does NOT extend to the people of Jewish faith. Of course it is still fashionable to call anyone who is disparaging to Israel a anti-semite/nazi.

But this topic was a result of those discussions. I never really considered the religious aspects of the situation until I began discussing it with "people of faith." It was then that I noticed the apparent contradiction. Not understanding it, I started THIS topic.

But anyway excuse the hell out of me for asking a goddamn question. I will pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Where can I send my check in support of Israel?

And then 5s5 chimes in to the silliness.... hehee, you guys...



Too damn shrewd for me. Even "I" wasn't aware that I was NOT looking to ask a question. I think the problem may be I wasn't looking to for YOUR kind of answers.



Attack, discredit, deny.

Amen Lead, I'm glad you added baptism, being saved is more than the sinner payer asking the lord into your heart. Don't get me wrong its part of it, but without baptism one is heading down a scary road, the gospels clearly back this up.

One must also practice righteousness and fight against sin. I think we lose sight from time to time with this simple concept. No we cant be perfect, Yes we have sin, but if you stop fighting against sin then you've made a clear choice (A Bad One) I struggle against sin everyday, but I'm thankful Christ paid the price and reassure me of this hope, so I press on, and no this is not an excuse to sin.

One must practice sacrificial love, be less hypocritical to everyone and want to be with the Lord. I don't know much but I know this. There will be NO ONE in heaven that did'nt plan to be there. A life long goal with a clear direction, Thank God.

 

I'm impressed with all of the comments and the mods allowing this tread to continue without locking it, its refreshing to see a civil debate.  

Absolutely not. This is valid for Christians. As a non Christian as I am, I believe that salvation can be gained in other way.



Only Reformist Judaism has this view about Christ. Orthodox Judaism has no mention about him.



Jews are "G-d Chosen" people the same way Christians and Muslims think the same about their religions. For Judaism any believer and even NOT believer that respect the will of G-d can access to Heaven.



I hope you find my answer useful



There isn't anything like "jewish race". If you go to Israel, you will see black jews from Ethiopia and Yemen, blonde jews from Russia, Europe and USA. A "race" has always some common tracts, due to rare DNA exchange outside an ethnic group. There is for sure a jewish culture.

Rarely I saw such a bunch of bullsh*ts all toghether...

Yes to 1st question. As stated above, these people who were commanded to repent were not under the old law. When is a testament or will become enforced? One sees in Hebrews 9:15-17 that the new testament was instituted upon the death of the "testator" who was Christ. Also, if there were no repentence, this would mean one would willfully continue in sin. What does the standard (Bible) say about this?  Romans 6:1-4 ...Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.

As far as the apparent contradiction between the Jews being God's chosen people and Jews not being able to get into Heaven. The Jews are in fact God's chosen people as seen in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, there is little mention of the Jews, except for the events in Jesus' life leading up to the crucifiction. The other significant mention of the Jews as a chosen people occurs in Revelation. Here the Jews are prophesied to be given a 'second chance' during the Tribulation. It seems that God is really trying to give the Jews every chance to see the error of their ways in not recognising His Son as the Messiah. After the Rapture and during the Second Coming the Jews will be given a chance to see Christ as the Messiah and to become saved. IMHO, the Jews are the only people that will have this extra last chance to be saved. By the Rapture, the time to decide if Jesus is Lord will be passed for all but the Jews.

it appears if you want the standard christian answer youve come to the right place.

you could of course read the old and new testaments and decide for yourself, rather than get everyone's interpretations.

Sniped said,


"Amen Lead, I'm glad you added baptism, being saved is more than the sinner payer asking the lord into your heart. Don't get me wrong its part of it, but without baptism one is heading down a scary road, the gospels clearly back this up."

You're correct Sniped and Leadpoison, baptism in required for salvation for a person under the law. But all that is required for a person under grace is to believe. Again, see I Cor 15:1-8. There is no baptism in those verses. You are saved by beief in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ: nothing else. The verses go on to define who or which Jesus they're talking about. If you want to remain under the law, good luck, you're going to need it and no one can help you.

That certainly is strange, [b]Kingme[/b], that the Risen Savior's last message to His people was:

[red][b][size=3]Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that [u]believeth and is baptized shall be saved[/u]; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/size=3][/b][/red]

From Mark 16:15,16.

So if 'baptism' is the 'law', then why was the Risen Savior still preaching the 'law' and commanding His apostles to preach the 'law'?

That makes no sense, you'd better think the matter over more carefully.

Eric The(FullGospel,OrNoDice!)Hun[>]:)]

Leadpoison said,

"As stated above, these people who were commanded to repent were not under the old law."

I disagree. They were very much under the law. Paul was originally under athe law and the chiefest amoung sinners. He was saved by grace as part of and under the mystery and tried to educate subsequent legallistic law abiders but many of them didn't take much to it. Grace and the mystery however, remain to this day.


"Also, if there were no repentence, this would mean one would willfully continue in sin."


That is a terrific testimony for grace. You are forgiven even if you willfully sin. And we all willfully sin. There's no such thing as "The Devil made me do it". Under law, "...there is none righteous, no, not one." (Rom 3:10, KJV). Under grace, every believer is righteous by the blood of Jesus Christ, (Phil 3:9) and has standing and access (Rom 5:2) to God. Even if you willfully rejected Jesus earlier in your life, as long as you're still alive on this earth, you have the abiliy to change your mind and become saved.

"What does the standard (Bible) say about this? Romans 6:1-4 ...Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid."


I agree, God Forbid. But thanks be for grace which has already forgiven me for my wilful sins. There is nothing I or anyone else can do to separate me from my Lord. He is not holding anything against me. He said so in the bible.

ErictheHun said,


"That certainly is strange, Kingme, that the Risen Savior's last message to His people was:"

I agree that Jesus, a jew,  said it to His people (the jews). Amen. But do you really this was His "last" message? Are the writings of Paul God's word? Is the entire Bible God's word? Hopefully you'e not one of those people who believe that only the red letters in the Bible are God's word. I'm going to assume that you belive that hte entire Bible is God's word. Correct me if I'm wrong.

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

From Mark 16:15,16.

So if 'baptism' is the 'law', then why was the Risen Savior still preaching the 'law' and commanding His apostles to preach the 'law'?"

This is all correct under the law. It's true that Jesus was born under the law and came to fulfill the law. His message to people under the law was as you pointed out: be baptised, etc.

Remember my post about the keys to understanding the Bible?

Rom 16:25 KJV, "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,according to the revelation of the mystery, WHICH WAS KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN." [emphasis mine]

AND/VERSUS

Acts 3:21 KJV "whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, WHICH GOD HATH SPOKEN by the mouth of all his holy prophets SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN." [emphasis mine]

The difference between something kept secret and something talked about since the world began is monumental. When you search it out you find out that the secret was the mystery of grace and the thing talked about was the law.

It comes down to which side do you want to live on, law or grace?

Baptism was a something preached about by the holy prophets. Grace and the mystery was the something kept secret from the holy prophets: it was only revealed to Paul.


"That makes no sense, you'd better think the matter over more carefully."

I assure you that I have and that I am comfortable with and entrenched in my beliefs. What you have pointed out is an apparent contrast within the Bible. The keys I cited resolve that contrast ( and many ore not mentioned thus far). This position is the most defensible position I've found. (Doesn't mean that I have expertise to defend all contrasts,  but I have enough to place my future in them.) You will have to decide for yourself on how and whether you're going to rightly divide the word of God.

Amen, I respect your beliefs Kingme, I can see youve invested some time in the gospels. But please consider this, Your right we are not under law we are under grace, all of us on this side of the cross. Please reread Acts 2:37
pay pitclear attention to verse 41, If it wasn't necessary then why were they ADDED, remember these are the same brethren that crucified the Lord. ver 38 Repent and be baptized, EVERYONE. 3000 souls added IN Christ
that day.

Also consider reading Acts 10 Cornelius a
gentile, A Good man, (I know allot of good men)
he was lost until Peter preached to him Jesus and read verse 47 and 48. Remember if it was ONLY an acknowledgement of Christ then Cornelius wouldn't needed to be baptized in order to be save. Since he was a man that believed with his whole house and had many good works.

So your right by grace your saved, but baptisms put us in contact of the blood of Christ, therefor we are IN Christ if were baptized in likeness of his death, Roman 6.

I'm just a simple bible student, but I understand the basics of salvation, and isn't that what all of us should focus on, the Basic

Thanks for the insights, this tread is insightful

ETH,

Quick question, not to cause controversy or add fuel to any fire (that, and I figure that you would know or have an answer):

If it was said that man is saved by faith, not works, wouldn't baptism be unnecessary?

I understand the symbolism behind baptism, and I realize that Jesus set an example by being baptized himself by John the Baptist, but baptism as an act seems to have a dual nature: one of being a personal experience representative of washing away one's sins, but also as a public proclamation of demonstrating one's faith in God by following the lead of Jesus.  That sounds more like a "work" than a "faith".

Now granted, I'm pagan, and not Christian, but I am curious as to the answer...

the_reject

Eric, I forgot to cite the contrasting verse on baptism. Under grace here's what Paul/God said about baptism.

I Cor 1:17, KJV, "For Christ sent me not to baptize..."

Does that mean Paul was not sent to save people? God forbid. It means that baptism was done away with under grace.


Also The Reject said about baptism, "That sounds more like a "work" than a "faith". You are entirely correct. This is another one of those contrasts. You're on the right track Reject. If you ever decide to get into the Bible, just make sure you rightly divide the word of God. It'll clear up a whole lot of messy misguidances (Did I just make up a new word?).

IF YOU READ THE BOOK OF MATHEW I BELIEVE IT IS YOU WILL FIND A PASSAGE WHERE JESUS TELLS THE "JEWS" WERE OF THIER FATHER THE DEVIL.
  ALSO WHEN I READ THE BOOK OF PAUL THE MESSAGE I GOT WAS THAT JEWS AND GENTILES ALIKE WERE GODS CHOSEN PEOPLE . AND I BELIEVE THIS IS WHY WE FIGHT, FOR "GODS" UNDEVIDED ATTENTION AND GRACES.
 YOU MIGHT WANT TO KEEP IN MIND TOO THAT IN THE JEWS "BIBLE" (IM ASSUMING YOU ARE A GENTILE) THAT EVERY JEW IS PROMISED 5000 GOYIM SLAVES. GOYIM BEING GENTILE. SO WATCH YOUR FRIENDS THE JEWS , FOR WE ARE PROMISED A GREAT DECEPTION IN THE GOOD BOOK.

Post from Kingme -

No, dear Brother, that is [u]not[/u] what Paul/God said about [b]baptism[/b], that was what Paul was telling the church at Corinth about the divisions that it was undergoing.

Read the full verse in context, to see:

[b]1 Corinthians, Chapter 1:[/b]

10   Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11   For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12   Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13   Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? [b]or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?[/b]

14   I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15   [b]Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.[/b]

16   And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17   For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18   For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

You see? Paul was worried that the divisions that were creeping into the church would destroy it, so he was pleased that he, personally, had only baptized a few of their number, which he mentioned by name, and also indicated that there were others he might have forgotten about!

So why was Paul [b]baptizing[/b] at all, if it was not being done 'under grace' as you like to refer to it?

Because he had been baptized by Ananias, just as the Lord had required, and just as the Lord Himself was batized by John the Baptist, and just as every believer in the New Testatment was after Pentecost!

[b]Find an exception and we will discuss this further![/b]

So, what did Jesus mean, as His last official message to His church in this world, mean in the 'Great Commission' in Mark 16:15,16:

[red][b]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

[u]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved[/u]; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/b][/red]

- continued -

So, Christ's Great Commission to His church, not Paul's church, but His own, blood-purchased church, lapsed? Went away? Ended?

That is so absurd that I can't believe that your fingers didn't go to hell when you typed it![:D]

Just get to a concordance and let Paul tell you his thoughts on baptism!

I did it before on another thread, so why be repetitive?

Contrast with what? The Word of God?

Is prayer a 'work' or a Sacrement? Is communion a 'work' of a Sacrement?

Just where did Jesus do away with any requirement for 'works'?  Show me the passage, where you can not visit the brothers in jail, where you are told not to feed the hungry, where you are commanded not to clothe the naked?

Where are [u]those[/u] passages located?

They don't seem to be in my King James Version!

Eric The(AskAboutTheFinalExamQuestion!)Hun[>]:)]

Just so I'm not misunderstood; baptism is commanded in the gospel. What does batispm do for us?
1. Baptism gets us into Christ Romans 6:3
  and this is all  spiritual blessings are found Ephesians 1:3
2. Baptism washes away our sins Acts 22:16
3. Baptism saves us Mark 16:16, I Peter 3:20-21
Once again, these are just a few of the many verses that can be used.
L.P.

Forget it guys.  ETH is referring to my thread where he thinks he proved his point.  The thing is he stated he quoted many verses, and so did I proving my point.  He also quoted verses which proved my point but apparently he has yet to prove (according to the bible KJV 1611) salvation by baptism.  

I do agree with ETH on quite a few of the other topics he has responded to, but not salvation by baptism.  

First, who or what is god?
The oldest text found shows the Hebrew people followed Yahweh. Every time they tried to followed a god they got into trouble.
Jew is a made up name, not in the old text.
Now read the first five books in your bible and try to find the 613 laws Yahweh gave to Moses for His people. I know, I know, the church folks say the laws were done away with. LOL  Does the Son have the right to do away with His Fathers
Word (LAWS). I remember getting my butt beat a few tims for trying to break my Dads rules (laws).

Post from RTA -

There is simply no way that you have given any scriptural authority for saying that water baptism is not an absolute requirement for salvation.

You nay fool the others, you may fool yourself, you may even fool me (unlikely), but you will never fool the Lord!

[red][b]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; He that believeth not shall be damned.[/b][/red] Mark 16:16

Read it and weep!

Sooo what? If you don't see a need to be baptized as the Lord has commanded, you may agree with me all you want about 'How many angels can dance on the head of a pin' and still go to hell!

Eric The([i][b]ACapella[/b][/i])Hun[>]:)]

RTA,

1 Peter 3:21 "...baptism doth also now save us" KJV

Now lets not twist words here.  I didn't say there was not a need to be baptized.  I believe I stated early on that baptism came after salvation, and that it was a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.   I believe I also stated and made clear my belief was that once a person got saved, then naturally they would want to follow in believers baptism, but that baptism did not save a person, like YOU stated.  I also stated that once saved, always saved.  YOU on the other hand don't believe in ETERNAL salvation, which is what JESUS teaches.  

Answer this.  Since you do not believe in eternal salvation, if a person gets saved by baptism (like you say) then if they sin do they take the Holy Spirit with them to hell if they die before getting baptised again?  Think about what you say!!  According to your interpretation, (which is at odds with the bible) either the Holy Spirit leaves the person, or it goes to hell with them.  

Eternal is Eternal, which is taught in the bible.  

John 3:15 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Sorry to ruin your day with the bible.

p.s. I don't know how to do those fancy bold lettering and red lettering, but both verses are in RED!!!

Post from RTA -

I cannot believe what I am reading, RTA!

First, there is never a 'need' to be rebaptized again, as if the first baptism didn't 'take', or something.

All you need do is repent and ask for forgiveness and you are restored to Christ.

But let me ask you this - while a man, any man who says he is saved and full of the Holy Spirit (such as, say, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baaker, et al.), is inside a motel room copulating with a woman, or man, or child, whatever, is the Holy Spirit with them [u]then[/u]?

As usual, Paul has the answer:

[b]1 Corinthians, Chapter 6:[/b]

15   Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? [b]shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid[/b].

16   [b]What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh[/b].

17   But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

18   Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Pretty nicely stated, huh? So do you think that the Holy Spirit remains in you while you do your, er, 'business' in the motel room?

Then you know for certain that the Holy Spirit that is presently in you, leaves a long time before you enter into Hell.

A very long time before!

Not because the Holy Spirit has abandoned you, but because you have abandoned the Holy Spirit.

Understand?  I knew you would!

Eric The(PreachingFool)Hun[>]:)]