[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Unimpressed (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/23/2010 7:38:39 PM EDT
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Is anyone else unimpressed by guys at the range who think they are awesome shot because they have sub-MOA groups from a bench rest/vise/bi-pod with a stock rest?
I have a buddy that thinks he's all cool because he shoots sub-MOA groups from a bench rest and rear stock rest. I just shake my head and chuckle. |
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It depends on the distance to the target and group size. If he can shoot 0.10" five shot groups at 100 yds, he can win almost any benchrest match in the US or Europe. Even shooting tight groups at 300, 800, 1000 yds takes skill of knowing how to dope the wind, sight picture, breath control and squeeze. Try it sometime. You might find its not as easy as it sounds. |
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I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards.
Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. |
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Quoted: All my guns shoot better than I do.I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards. Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. Even the crummy ones.  |
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Quoted: I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards. Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. MOA is MOA. MOA is NOT = to 1". MOA is an angle. 0.1" at 10yd is the same thing as 1" at 100yd, which is the same thing as 3" at 300 yd. A sub-MOA group at 300 yards would be anything less than 3", not 1". There are a lot of people that think 1 MOA means 1" no matter the range. |
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Shooting sub minute groups isnt as easy as you might think. Many rifles and ammo combos arent capable of that even locked into a vise.
I shoot my long range rig off a bipod with a rear bag, try to shoot any other way at 1K and see how hard that is. Shooting with an Eotech is an entirely different animal. You are comparing apples to oranges and getting irritated. I shoot my Eo at cqb distance to 100 and rarely 200yards and a decent hit is all I care about. I shoot a precision rifle to a much more exacting standard. 1 MOA = 1.047" per 100 yards. At 1000 yards it's around 10 inches and good luck holding that unless you're very experienced and have super duper handloads and a hell of a rifle as well as precise shot to shot wind calls. |
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I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards. Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. MOA is MOA. MOA is NOT = to 1". MOA is an angle. .1" at 10yd is the same thing as 1" at 100yd, which is the same thing as 3" at 300 yd. A sub-MOA group at 300 yards would be anything less than 3", not 1". This is true, but the equation changes with variables such as distance, optics, elevation, windage, humidity. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards. Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. MOA is MOA. MOA is NOT = to 1". MOA is an angle. .1" at 10yd is the same thing as 1" at 100yd, which is the same thing as 3" at 300 yd. A sub-MOA group at 300 yards would be anything less than 3", not 1". This is true, but the equation changes with variables such as distance, optics, elevation, windage, humidity. Shot placement yes, group size angle no. |
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I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards. Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. MOA is MOA. MOA is NOT = to 1". MOA is an angle. .1" at 10yd is the same thing as 1" at 100yd, which is the same thing as 3" at 300 yd. A sub-MOA group at 300 yards would be anything less than 3", not 1". This is true, but the equation changes with variables such as distance, optics, elevation, windage, humidity. No it doesnt. |
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I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards. Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. MOA is MOA. MOA is NOT = to 1". MOA is an angle. .1" at 10yd is the same thing as 1" at 100yd, which is the same thing as 3" at 300 yd. A sub-MOA group at 300 yards would be anything less than 3", not 1". This is true, but the equation changes with variables such as distance, optics, elevation, windage, humidity. No it doesnt. Are you telling me that you can shoot with roughly the same accuracy at a 1000 yds as you can at 10 yds? If thats what you're saying than I am truly impressed. No Joke. |
i think he's annoyed because they aren't shooting longer ranges, they're just making tiny groups. i think its also got to do with the impracticality of shooting at benchrest with the pads and stuff, cause any real life application is not going to be set up nearly as nice...except for maybe a drawn out hostage situation that gives you all the time in the world to get comfortable 
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards. Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. MOA is MOA. MOA is NOT = to 1". MOA is an angle. .1" at 10yd is the same thing as 1" at 100yd, which is the same thing as 3" at 300 yd. A sub-MOA group at 300 yards would be anything less than 3", not 1". This is true, but the equation changes with variables such as distance, optics, elevation, windage, humidity. No it doesnt. Are you telling me that you can shoot with roughly the same accuracy at a 1000 yds as you can at 10 yds? If thats what you're saying than I am truly impressed. No Joke. You are not understanding the concept here. It's an angle, not the size of the group. YES, the MOA will be constant for all ranges. NOT the measurement of the group size. If I can shoot a 1" group at 100 yards then I can RELIABLY shoot a 10" group at 1000 yards. I consider myself a 2 MOA shooter. That means I can reliably make 2" groups at 100 yards, which means I can make 10" groups at 500 yards. That is 2 MOA. That does NOT mean I can shoot 2" at 500 yards. |
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i think he's annoyed because they aren't shooting longer ranges, they're just making tiny groups. i think its also got to do with the impracticality of shooting at benchrest with the pads and stuff, cause any real life application is not going to be set up nearly as nice...except for maybe a drawn out hostage situation that gives you all the time in the world to get comfortable In so many words, that is what I'm trying to say. |
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I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards. Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. It depends on the shooting dicipline. Not to knock you or anything but take that 3.5 inches at 100 and move your target out to 400.. .easily within the range of an AR. Now your looking at 14 inch groups which can translate into a miss in the right conditions. But we are both comparing apples to oranges. A precision rifle has one job, an Eotech topped carbine has another. I frequently shoot 100 yards for group. But, I also practice carbine, SMG, etc. I try to round all my skills out. Don't knock your friend for his efforts. He's got you on the accuracy over range because of it. You have him on mobility and speed. Instead of competing against one another, work to enhance your skills to work in concert with one another. On another note, you do realize that most people (non military) in the US rarely get the opportunity to shoot more than 100 yards. It's becoming more common now however because the interest in precision shooting is increasing. Precision shooting is a type of martial art. It's a very strict discipline that starts at 100 yards. Oh, and if you see someone shooting a precision rifle at 25 yards, 50 yards 75 yards and anywhere in between... don't mock them. They are doing something that most people should do but rarely do any of them do. |
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I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards. Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. MOA is MOA. MOA is NOT = to 1". MOA is an angle. .1" at 10yd is the same thing as 1" at 100yd, which is the same thing as 3" at 300 yd. A sub-MOA group at 300 yards would be anything less than 3", not 1". This is true, but the equation changes with variables such as distance, optics, elevation, windage, humidity. No it doesnt. Are you telling me that you can shoot with roughly the same accuracy at a 1000 yds as you can at 10 yds? If thats what you're saying than I am truly impressed. No Joke. You are not understanding the concept here. It's an angle, not the size of the group. YES, the MOA will be constant for all ranges. NOT the measurement of the group size. If I can shoot a 1" group at 100 yards then I can RELIABLY shoot a 10" group at 1000 yards. I consider myself a 2 MOA shooter. That means I can reliably make 2" groups at 100 yards, which means I can make 10" groups at 500 yards. That is 2 MOA. That does NOT mean I can shoot 2" at 500 yards. My bad on the use of the term "MOA", I should have used the term/phrase "sub-1 inch groups at 100yds" instead. |
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Quoted: Only time my firearms are on the rest is while zeroing out irons and optics. Other than that, I stand, or use "natural" positions. I try to practice in what I refer to as media friendly positions. That way when the revolution happens I'll get good exposure for my subsequent run for office . |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards. Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. MOA is MOA. MOA is NOT = to 1". MOA is an angle. .1" at 10yd is the same thing as 1" at 100yd, which is the same thing as 3" at 300 yd. A sub-MOA group at 300 yards would be anything less than 3", not 1". This is true, but the equation changes with variables such as distance, optics, elevation, windage, humidity. No it doesnt. Are you telling me that you can shoot with roughly the same accuracy at a 1000 yds as you can at 10 yds? If thats what you're saying than I am truly impressed. No Joke. You are not understanding the concept here. It's an angle, not the size of the group. YES, the MOA will be constant for all ranges. NOT the measurement of the group size. If I can shoot a 1" group at 100 yards then I can RELIABLY shoot a 10" group at 1000 yards. I consider myself a 2 MOA shooter. That means I can reliably make 2" groups at 100 yards, which means I can make 10" groups at 500 yards. That is 2 MOA. That does NOT mean I can shoot 2" at 500 yards. My bad on the use of the term "MOA", I should have used the term/phrase "sub-1 inch groups at 100yds" instead. Sub 1" groups at 100 yards would be Sub-MOA. I'm just trying to stress the point that it's an angle, and not a size. OK well I guess I'll let you get back to your thread now |
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Only time my firearms are on the rest is while zeroing out irons and optics. Other than that, I stand, or use "natural" positions. This is how I prefer to use rests, for sighting in. Otherwise I prefer to shoot from practical positions with both my AR style carbine and my Remmington 7mm-08 hunting rifle, because that's how they will be used while hunting or for home defense. |
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I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards. Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. MOA is MOA. MOA is NOT = to 1". MOA is an angle. .1" at 10yd is the same thing as 1" at 100yd, which is the same thing as 3" at 300 yd. A sub-MOA group at 300 yards would be anything less than 3", not 1". This is true, but the equation changes with variables such as distance, optics, elevation, windage, humidity. No it doesnt. Are you telling me that you can shoot with roughly the same accuracy at a 1000 yds as you can at 10 yds? If thats what you're saying than I am truly impressed. No Joke. At 1000 yards you'll find wind and mirage to be a mother. Shooting sub minute at 100 yards does not equate to shooting sub minute at 1K yards due to environmental factors. Past 600 life becomes much more difficult. Once again the equation stays the same 1.047" per 100 yards is 1 MOA. Learn to call wind for your buddy with the precision rig and you can each augment each others skillset and be more effective as a team. You'd be much better off with 2 guys and one being skilled at cqb distance and one at longer range. You can also cross train each other. Play the precision game a time or two and see how you like it. Shooting off a vise however is worthless, shooting off a bag and bipod is practical. |
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Shooting sub minute groups isnt as easy as you might think. Many rifles and ammo combos arent capable of that even locked into a vise. I shoot my long range rig off a bipod with a rear bag, try to shoot any other way at 1K and see how hard that is. Shooting with an Eotech is an entirely different animal. You are comparing apples to oranges and getting irritated. I shoot my Eo at cqb distance to 100 and rarely 200yards and a decent hit is all I care about. I shoot a precision rifle to a much more exacting standard. 1 MOA = 1.047" per 100 yards. At 1000 yards it's around 10 inches and good luck holding that unless you're very experienced and have super duper handloads and a hell of a rifle as well as precise shot to shot wind calls. I second this motion. |
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I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards. Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. MOA is MOA. MOA is NOT = to 1". MOA is an angle. .1" at 10yd is the same thing as 1" at 100yd, which is the same thing as 3" at 300 yd. A sub-MOA group at 300 yards would be anything less than 3", not 1". This is true, but the equation changes with variables such as distance, optics, elevation, windage, humidity. No it doesnt. Are you telling me that you can shoot with roughly the same accuracy at a 1000 yds as you can at 10 yds? If thats what you're saying than I am truly impressed. No Joke. LOL there's a difference between MOA and accuracy. 1 MOA at 10 yards, is 1 MOA at 55.45 yards, and still 1 MOA at 1000 yards. 1 MOA is 1 MOA at 5.2 miles. Edit for clarification. EQUATION for MOA does not change, the difficulty of accuracy does (with distance). |
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Quoted: I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards. Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. Have you ever tried to sink 5 rounds into the size of a dime, or less, at 100 yards? Try it some time, it's not easy. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards. Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. MOA is MOA. MOA is NOT = to 1". MOA is an angle. .1" at 10yd is the same thing as 1" at 100yd, which is the same thing as 3" at 300 yd. A sub-MOA group at 300 yards would be anything less than 3", not 1". This is true, but the equation changes with variables such as distance, optics, elevation, windage, humidity. No it doesnt. Are you telling me that you can shoot with roughly the same accuracy at a 1000 yds as you can at 10 yds? If thats what you're saying than I am truly impressed. No Joke. You are not understanding the concept here. It's an angle, not the size of the group. YES, the MOA will be constant for all ranges. NOT the measurement of the group size. If I can shoot a 1" group at 100 yards then I can RELIABLY shoot a 10" group at 1000 yards. I consider myself a 2 MOA shooter. That means I can reliably make 2" groups at 100 yards, which means I can make 10" groups at 500 yards. That is 2 MOA. That does NOT mean I can shoot 2" at 500 yards. My bad on the use of the term "MOA", I should have used the term/phrase "sub-1 inch groups at 100yds" instead. That statement just compounds your error, and proves that you don't understand what he is doing. You can say "sub 1" groups" as a way of minimizing his performance, but the fact remains that it is still sub MOA and will remain so at longer ranges. And that is the way your benchrest shooter friend looks at it too, whether you understand it or not. Besides, how do you shoot that is so superior? What is the standard of comparison here? ETA: Personally, I like shooting from field positions. But I have friends who are benchresters, and I appreciate their skill and dedication to their hobby. To a benchrester, it is not just about skillful shooting; it is also usually about skillful gunsmithing and handloading. |
| Bench rest shooters dont bother me at all. In fact, most of the bench rest shooters I know are extremely intelligent people. On the other hand, I chuckle when I see a cocky, huge fat guy decked out in tactical gear. You know, the ones who cant stand up without grunting and poppings several blood vessels? |
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Bench rest shooting does not impress me either, but me shooting in a chest rig, falling in to the prone, shooting under chairs etc does not much impress the bench rest shooters. Live and let live. Amen, like I said, just needed a vent. END OF THREAD No it wasn't. |
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I don't go to the range to judge other men's groups. I go to judge the pants they wear to the range. this why do you want to rain on his parade? its not like he is gloating about unloading into a target 5 M away. 1MOA groups are nothing to scoff at. maybe he will try his hand at 200,300,500,1000M you gotta walk before you can run |
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Sometimes, shooting from sand bags and rests is necessary, like for load development. If I had been tediously working up a hand load for a rifle and I shot some nice sub-moa groups with it, I'd be bragging about it too. For my AR15 and EOtech using commercial ammo, I'm very pleased if I can hit clay pigeons at 100 yards offhand 3 out of 4 shots. |
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I'm well aware its very difficult at ranges of 300+ yards with a .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, but most people I saw at the range get all jacked up about doing at 100 yards. Its my fault for not including the 100 yard part in the original post. I was a little frustrated with a friend of mine who seemed to think it important to rag me for shooting 3.5 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my EOTech while he was doing sub-MOA from a rest with a 10x scope at 100 yds. MOA is MOA. MOA is NOT = to 1". MOA is an angle. .1" at 10yd is the same thing as 1" at 100yd, which is the same thing as 3" at 300 yd. A sub-MOA group at 300 yards would be anything less than 3", not 1". This is true, but the equation changes with variables such as distance, optics, elevation, windage, humidity. No it doesnt. Are you telling me that you can shoot with roughly the same accuracy at a 1000 yds as you can at 10 yds? If thats what you're saying than I am truly impressed. No Joke. You are not understanding the concept here. It's an angle, not the size of the group. YES, the MOA will be constant for all ranges. NOT the measurement of the group size. If I can shoot a 1" group at 100 yards then I can RELIABLY shoot a 10" group at 1000 yards. I consider myself a 2 MOA shooter. That means I can reliably make 2" groups at 100 yards, which means I can make 10" groups at 500 yards. That is 2 MOA. That does NOT mean I can shoot 2" at 500 yards. Mathematically talking about the angle yes, but by the time you get out at 1000 yards ballistics are going to start opening up that group. |
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Quoted: I'm apparently wrong here, and have been proven so by the comments in this thread, however, I always thought MOA was exponential. Meaning: 1" @ 100yds 2" @ 200 yds 4" @ 300 yds 8" @ 400 yds 16" @ 500 yds... you get the picture. inches = MOA value*1.047* (yardage/100) 1MOA at 1000 yards: 1 MOA = 10.47inches |
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I'm apparently wrong here, and have been proven so by the comments in this thread, however, I always thought MOA was exponential. Meaning: 1" @ 100yds 2" @ 200 yds 4" @ 300 yds 8" @ 400 yds 16" @ 500 yds... you get the picture. No. 1.047"*(yards/100)= MOA Right. But aside from the obvious rounding, the laws of exponents do not apply? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm apparently wrong here, and have been proven so by the comments in this thread, however, I always thought MOA was exponential. Meaning: 1" @ 100yds 2" @ 200 yds 4" @ 300 yds 8" @ 400 yds 16" @ 500 yds... you get the picture. No. 1.047"*(yards/100)= MOA Right. But aside from the obvious rounding, the laws of exponents do not apply? No exponents just angles. inches = MOA value*1.047* (yardage/100) 1MOA at 1000 yards: 1 MOA = 10.47inches 1MOA at 500 yards: 1MOA = 5.24 inches 3MOA at 500 yards: 3MOA = 15.71 inches |
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Quoted: I'm apparently wrong here, and have been proven so by the comments in this thread, however, I always thought MOA was exponential. Meaning: 1" @ 100yds 2" @ 200 yds 4" @ 300 yds 8" @ 400 yds 16" @ 500 yds... you get the picture. Nope. Minute of angle is just that, an angle. From Wikipedia: A minute of arc, or arcminute or minute of angle (MOA), is a unit of angular measurement equal to one sixtieth (1/60) of one degree. Since one degree is defined as one three hundred sixtieth (1/360) of a circle, 1 minute of arc is 1/21,600 of the amount of arc in a closed circle. It is used in those fields which require a unit for the expression of small angles, such as astronomy and marksmanship. The exact measure of MOA is 1.0471996" at 100 yards of distance. MOA is a quadratic effect so 1" of MOA at 100 yards would equate to .5235998" at 50 yards, 2.0943992" at 200 yards, 3.1415988" at 300 yards and so on. ETA: The is also a second of angle, which is 1/60 of a minute. And there is an alternate measurement for marksmanship called the milliradian. Ever hear of a mil-dot? The milliradian, or .001 radian, is what that is referring to. |
