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Posted: 4/7/2002 9:35:10 PM EDT
It seems that the last few hunting seasons, I've been plagued with a sense of remorse for the animals that I've killed. After the excitement of the kill, I have always felt a trifle bit of sadness for the fallen animal, but it usually went away shortly afterwards. But now, that feeling is staying longer, and longer. I have always considered myself an ethical hunter, abiding by game laws, and for the most part, only killed what I ate. I really enjoy photography, so I'm planning on selling several of my hunting guns and buying some high quality equipment. My favorite part of hunting was always finding new spots, stalking the game, and basically just walking through the woods. I figure I can still do that, only I'll be armed with a camera instead of a gun. Just so you know, I will not turn into a anti-hunting zealot and will continue to eat meat(wild and domestic.) I certainly won't give up shooting guns, and plan to keep the majority of my collection. Just wondering if other have ever had these feelings? Was also curious about how many others out there like to shoot, but not necessarily hunt?
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 9:39:17 PM EDT
Well I'm not going to rag on you for feeling the way you do . If you love the stalk go ahead and get the photography equipment , unlike actually hunting you may get lucky and make a little money at it .
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 9:41:49 PM EDT
Go ahead and send your hunting rifles to me. I will put them to good use for you. [:)] Only thing I have ever hunted were pheasant's. But I plan on hooking up with TheRedGoat for a hog hunt.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 9:43:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 9:47:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mach1: Was also curious about how many others out there like to shoot, but not necessarily hunt?
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I like to shoot, but I don't like to hunt. When I'm ready to go shooting, I don't want to find or wait for a target. That's much to slow for me. FWIW, I have a friend who feels the same way you do. He started taking his camera into the woods instead of his rifle and says it's just as much fun.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 9:57:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/7/2002 10:01:15 PM EDT by Gloftoe]
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:09:06 PM EDT
You will soon discover that your experience in fieldcraft will be of great benefit. There will be no remorse for the type of game that will be hunted.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:19:09 PM EDT
I shoot quite a bit but don't hunt. I hunt at the grocery store[:D] Seriously, I know plenty of hunters, and have no problem eating what they've killed. I'm just not personally into hunting, so I don't bother. Just make sure when you're out there taking picutres you watch out for those hunters who don't have cameras. Ross
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:54:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/7/2002 11:02:31 PM EDT by Benjamin0001]
Maybe you just ain't working hard enough. Perhpas a three week totally primitive hunt in Wyoming for a large Bull Elk in a snow storm in the upper mountains with nothing save some surivival equiptment and your wits, perhaps with a Sharps .45-110/120. That way you have the chance of dieing too?? Would that take away the guilt??? It just sounds to me like you have outgrown your prey. You should try something tougher. That would take into account all your field craft, feeding yourself day to day, tracking, orienteering (navigation), setting up camps , fires, etc. Stalking, sneaking and taking the kill. All the while facing starvation,freezing,falling, breaking limbs, you name it. I will gauranttee you when you get through with that and you have an Elk you won't feel one bit of remorse. I had a friend in HighSchool who had hunted and bagged the Big Five in Africa before he was 18 years old. Although I was jealeous for that, I also remember thinking God , where do you go from there?? Benjamin
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 11:02:57 PM EDT
If you decide to hunt with a camera instead of a gun that's your prerogative. However controlled hunting (following game laws) and lisence fees serves a useful purpose in keeping animal populations in check while maintaining a healthy heard. The whitetail / turkey ect... is are classic example. X amount of land can only support x amount of critters. That's a fact. Regarding the "I only shoot what I can eat" is nonsense. Varmints need to be thinned out just like anything else. I feel no remorse leaving a woodchuck for the buzzards or whatever may happen to find it. So in essence nothing ever goes to waste in nature.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 11:30:25 PM EDT
I enjoy hunting alot! I enjoy fishing alot! Both are for food gathering...which just happens to be challenging and exciting. I abide by the rules. I eat everything I kill(except in circumstances that dont pertain to this thread). The camera idea is a great one. I have considered doing the same thing during the years that my freezer is full. I hope you find peace no matter what decision you make.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 11:31:39 PM EDT
I'm tired of shooting paper targets and I want to try hunting at least once. If you can enjoy the nature without killing animals that would be great, and if your conscience remains clear thats super! Your lost interest in hunting might be attributed to changes or occurance in your life. Perhaps you are going through a tough time. Just be careful, other hunters in the woods might mistake you for an animal specially if you are stalking with a ghillie suit or something. I don't feel anything is wrong with the way you feel. In a buddhist religion, they say if you kill or harm any an animal or insect, you'll reincarnate into it in your next life cycle, and its your turn to be killed. Whether you believe in reincarnation or not, thats up to you :)
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 11:45:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By smoken44: Regarding the "I only shoot what I can eat" is nonsense. Varmints need to be thinned out just like anything else. I feel no remorse leaving a woodchuck for the buzzards or whatever may happen to find it. So in essence nothing ever goes to waste in nature.
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I wasn't trying to foist my views on hunting morality, just explaining how I hunt. As long as one hunts within the confines of the law, It doesn't bother me a bit. Just not my bag, baby [8D]
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 11:50:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 11:54:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By smoken44: Regarding the "I only shoot what I can eat" is nonsense.
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This is absolutely true. The hogs can be fed instead.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 12:24:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/8/2002 12:25:18 AM EDT by alexanderredhook]
I kill paper and nothing else. I have nothing against hunting an an animal but I just can't feature having to field dress it.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 1:22:14 AM EDT
Haven't you ever seen that Geiko commercial? The squirrels are laughing at us all, and they are waiting for the human race to slip up; that's when they make their move! sneaky bastages. The secret to hunting is to find the "cutest" animal that you can legally hunt and then kill it with a spoon. If you can do that you can hunt anything without worry of remorse...at least in theory...I don't know. I have killed two fawns and although they were my first (and only so far) large game kills, I thought about it for a while and then did what any body else would do...repress the regret and forget about those poor cute little bambies... **sob** I am sorry I have to go...I have something in my eyes.[>Q] Oh, and then I remember how good they tasted....mmm....
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 3:10:06 AM EDT
Mach1, have you ever considered hunting with a bow ? , I find it much more challenging and when you make a kill it comes with a greater sense of accomplishment. Besides the rare trophy kill, I feel a gun kill can be accomplished with very little expertise, a bow kill requires more stealth, patience, and skill. (you are looking for a 15 - 20 yrd. shot) I hunt primarily with a compound but have been practicing with traditional equipment and will be using a Hill longbow this fall.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 3:43:14 AM EDT
I only hunt for groceries. And even that is rare these days. Used to be you could hunt cheaper than you could shop, and that was the whole point. Nowadays the store is cheaper. I understand the sympathy for the kill thing but I'm also realistic. Do I enjoy killing? No. Will I? Yes. Someone killed my steak. I only wish there was a "Cattle Season", not much of a challenge, but I'd be out there every day. About the only hunters I DON'T like are the ones who hunt soley for the kill. A few might actually eat what they shoot, but they are out there to kill something and it shows. Even remember the time I saw a hunter shoot his own dog because it wasn't following commands. Can't stand these assholes.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 4:00:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/8/2002 4:10:09 AM EDT by rogerb]
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: About the only hunters I DON'T like are the ones who hunt soley for the kill. A few might actually eat what they shoot, but they are out there to kill something and it shows. Even remember the time I saw a hunter shoot his own dog because it wasn't following commands. Can't stand these assholes.
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Well, I some bowhunters , who have made kills for the trophy. I know a guy who took a grizzly with a recurve, he ate very little of it, but it is a major accomplishment. I also know a woman who has taken a male lion and a cape buffalo with a bow. Being African hunts you eat very little of the meat in camp, the majority is given to the trackers. But, if you know anything about cape buffalo (also called the black death), you would understand the pride of this kill (it took her 2 trips to get one). My take is there is nothing wrong with a trophy kill if it is done in such a way that the outcome maybe that the animal wins. Here is a link of her with her buffalo, and yes there is a man with a rifle (it is required by law, but is doee not lessen the danger, buffalo have been known to trample hunters after several shots from a .375 !!) And they can close on you in 25 yrds in seconds. http://www.bowsite.com/BSTROPHY/DETAILS.CFM?TROPHYID=1128 Same hunter with her lion (was charging her when she dropped it at 10 yrds !! http://www.caracalhuntingsafaris.com/p4.htm
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 4:06:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/8/2002 4:38:41 AM EDT by Stormbringer]
Its called anthropomorphism.... Putting human feelings into animals heads... It is a sign of the liberalization of society. The deer I kill each fall really do not care if they are killed by me or coyotes. Or for that matter if they starve due to over popluation. I am taking my 9 year old son out turkey hunting in two weeks. I am doing my best to make certain that he does not follow your ways......Its just not natural. Edited because Renamed knows more about what I am trying to say...LOL Main Entry: an·thro·po·mor·phism Pronunciation: -"fi-z&m Function: noun Date: 1753 : an interpretation of what is not human or personal in terms of human or personal characteristics : HUMANIZATION - an·thro·po·mor·phist /-fist/ noun
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 4:07:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: thats the reason i don't hunt. Don't have anything against it but i also don't feel the need to kill for the thrill of it. I have no problems killing animal that is a threat or ill.
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PETA loves you!!
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 4:22:53 AM EDT
Its called anamorphism.... Putting human feelings into animals heads...
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I think the word you have in mind is "anthropomorphism".
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 4:55:29 AM EDT
I used to hunt anything from squirrels to coyotes to bear. Now I've confined myself to upland bird hunting. And I don't even go out much for that anymore.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 5:02:54 AM EDT
What kind of firearms you selling?
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 5:15:49 AM EDT
nothing like the satisfying "thwack" of a nosler ballistic tip hitting a groundhog. remorse? none. how remorseful would it feel if my tractor rolled over and crushed me when its' tunnel caved in as i drove over it?
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 5:19:38 AM EDT
Read "Meditations on Hunting" by Jose Ortega y Gasset. He says something like "We don't hunt to kill. We kill in order to have hunted." It's probably out of print, although I found it on Amazon on audio tape at: [url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/104-5868154-3949557[/url] You should be able to get it from your library. It is a short, straightforward read & I recommend it highly.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 5:30:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 5:35:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/8/2002 5:36:16 AM EDT by Arock]
Originally Posted By Benjamin0001: I had a friend in HighSchool who had hunted and bagged the Big Five in Africa before he was 18 years old. Although I was jealeous for that, I also remember thinking God , where do you go from there?? Benjamin
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Although highly advertised and somewhat pricey, the Big Five are relatively EASY to hunt. That's why greybeards like me hunt them. When you're ready for more strenuous and more dangerous hunting, you'll go after high mountain sheep. Say maybe Marco Polos in the Pashtun or Hindu Kush. Sleep in the freezing dust or maybe one of the abandoned Russian camps and in the night sneak into Afganistan after really big rams. Read "Wind, Dust and Snow" by Robert Anderson or one of Rasheed Jamshid's books.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 5:44:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/8/2002 6:47:55 AM EDT by Arock]
Originally Posted By hardcase: Read "Meditations on Hunting" by Jose Ortega y Gasset. He says something like "We don't hunt to kill. We kill in order to have hunted." It's probably out of print, although I found it on Amazon on audio tape at: [url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/104-5868154-3949557[/url] You should be able to get it from your library. It is a short, straightforward read & I recommend it highly.
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GREAT BOOK! Although originally published in in Lisbon, Portugal in Spanish in 1942, I have a first printing of the 1972 Wescott-translated version. Born in 1883, Jose Ortega y Gasset was Spain's leading philosopher of the twentieth century. In 1910 he was appointed to the Chair of Metaphysics at the University of Madrid, a position he held until 1936 (after the Revolution Hemingway wrote about in "The Sun Also Rises"). Every hunter should have it on their required reading list.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 6:46:14 AM EDT
The_Beer_Slayer: I thoroughly enjoy hunting for the simple fact that that's what I enjoy doing. Some people like to bowl, some people like to paint, some people like to hunt. I assure you my desire to hunt a game animal is not there to compensate for a defect in my personality. I could see your case if my idea of hunting was drowning cats in a barrel, but that is hardly the case. Opinions are like assholes, everybodys got one. ques
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 7:00:13 AM EDT
and if assholes could fly, this place would be an airport.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 7:25:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 7:29:12 AM EDT
I haven't been hunting, yet. First of all, I have no idea how to hunt. Second, I fear I would be extremely bored sitting waiting for an animal to walk within range. But I do like shooting paper and clays.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 7:56:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 8:12:23 AM EDT
Mach1, I feel the same. Over the years I've gotten where I can't even step on a bug. I've never understood those who kill beautiful animals and then hang their heads on the wall. That doesn't mean, though, that I wouldn't hunt to survive, or kill worthless vermin to protect my family.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 10:13:59 AM EDT
For me, carrying the rifle is a big part of the fun. Just carrying a camera would reduce my enjoyment, primarily because the stakes would not be as high. But that is just me. Enjoy the outdoors anyway you like, but make sure you still enjoy them. Too many guys I know who quit hunting just become couch potatoes. Another good book that might help you put some perspective on hunting: Heartsblood, by David Peterson. It talks about all that hunting/spirituality/wilderness stuff. We have been hunters for most of our species' history, into agriculture for a shorter period of time, and supermarket shoppers for the blink of an eye. We do ourselves harm by running away from our genes and our history. One of the big problems in our society is that kids have no contact with death other than the glamorous images presented in videogames and the movies; there would be a whole lot less would-be murderers if more kids had Gloftoe's experience with the little pigs (see page 1). Killing is a big deal with real consequences; what you shoot does not just blow up and disapear like in DOOM. Killing gives you more respect for life, and a better sense of your place in nature. Plus, its a hoot!
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 10:36:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 11:31:36 AM EDT
Nothing wrong with hunting or not hunting, it's a personal choice. A lot of the gals don't like to hunt but like to shoot. I hate to lose a deer or any game I've shot. Our group will halt hunting and take off to all points of the compass from where the deer was last seen or end of blood trail. Figure usually about 1 to 2 hours looking if need be, sometimes we find it sometimes not. Get our exercise if nothing else. I will usually pat the deer on the neck and thank him and the good lord for being there and that I was sorry I had to shoot him. Although I've never researched it, I think there's an old Indian tradition of giving the game a drink after you've killed it. In Illinois, we've gone from being elated to seeing tracks and scat to being disappointed if the big boys don't show up. The companionship and tall tales and threats to do with the shotgun what you do with golf clubs are the best part of it. About 15 years ago, I had to drain the coffee so dropped back off the top of the hill out of sight, laid the gun down, and was draining the coffee when 2 big does popped over the top and decided to see what was happening. I still get razzed about that and needless to say, I keep the shotgun in one hand and the other gun in the other since then. So who's the craziest, deer hunters or duck hunters. One of the guys decided to camera hunt one day instead of bow hunting, you guessed it, the big boy walked right by. I've been fortunate to see 2 monsters butting heads, the grandaddy dance on his hind legs for a doe, a doe hauling ass across the field with a little buck chasing her with his nose right on her ass. Shot nice eight point about 35 yards from stand, climbed down to check if hit him, when I about got run over by a dozen does coming behind the buck--Looked like a football kickoff. I must have shot the biggest stud in the county. Was a good shot, he went about 100 yds. You can be the dog when nothing's moving and you have to kick them out.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 11:49:44 AM EDT
I enjoy shooting, but I do not hunt. As most other like individuals here have said, I have nothing against hunters, and if necessary for survival, I would. Although, if you're going to hunt I think you should really hunt. Putting food out at the same spot all year long, and then shooting from an elevated blind is not hunting as I see it. It's target practice.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 12:12:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 12:28:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 12:38:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Maynard: Crow, coyote and groundhogs are pests that just need killin'.
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However, if you didn't kill the coyotes you'd have a lot less groundhogs bothering you.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 1:06:10 PM EDT
Although highly advertised and somewhat pricey, the Big Five are relatively EASY to hunt. That's why greybeards like me hunt them. When you're ready for more strenuous and more dangerous hunting, you'll go after high mountain sheep. Say maybe Marco Polos in the Pashtun or Hindu Kush. Sleep in the freezing dust or maybe one of the abandoned Russian camps and in the night sneak into Afganistan after really big rams. Read "Wind, Dust and Snow" by Robert Anderson or one of Rasheed Jamshid's books
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Well I have seen all kinds of hunts but the ones I despise most are the TRAPPED GAME PAY PER TAG TROPHY ELK HUNTS. You know the ones where they bait a hole and there is only one way in and one way out and its all just a big F&*(ing Joke. A lot a executives pay for this shit and it bugs the hell out of me. What kind of total shithead does it take to go out for two days every year and bag 1/2/3 trophy elk every time, hahaha those people make me want to puke. [puke] There some sport in that by god. I am a real man. Sorry , this I have been wanting to speak of this for about a year now. Benjamin
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 1:28:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/8/2002 1:36:08 PM EDT by Mach1]
Originally Posted By Halfcocked: What kind of firearms you selling?
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Well, nothing set in stone yet, but offhand I came up with this: Winchester M70 .243 Ruger Red Label 28ga Chinese SKS ( my favorite brush rifle ) T/C White Mountain Carbine .50cal (blackpowder) T/C Encore 7mm-08 Remington 11-87 12ga Anyway, I appreciate all the responses. You guys have some intelligent thoughts on this subject. I have hunted my whole life, and have slowly phased out different species that I hunt. Use to be a big into waterfowl and predator (Fox& Coyote)hunting, but haven't done either in 5 years. I got into archery for Deer a few years ago, but I made a bad shot on a white-tail last year (gut shot) tracked it for two days- didn't find. A classic rookie mistake- made a long (45yd) shot that I had no business of taking with my limited skills. I really enjoy archery, and plan on hunting this year, but will defiantly only take higher percentage shots (for me, 30yds and under). For me gun, hunting Deer just doesn't do it anymore. I like Benjamin0001 idea. Maybe I need to press my hunting/survival skills to the limit of my abilities. I have always enjoyed doing things the hard way when concerning the outdoors. I don't use ATVs, cell phones, like to hunt away from crowds, and will walk into the nastiest terrain in pursuit of game. Don't get me wrong, I go out with good modern gear, (GPS, packs, knives, etc.)and don't plan on being a statistic- " Foolish city boy disappears in Alaskan Bush." However, I do like to walk the fine line between pushing the envelope and stupidity. Keep the posts coming...I'm going check out those books mentioned.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 1:33:46 PM EDT
you have come to appreciate the sacrifice made by some creature unwary enough to stumble into your crosshairs. a quick glance will reveal that they want to live, just as much as we do. you have respect for life. there is nothing to be ashamed of here. we each hunt in our own way for a reason. if it's for food, or to conrol pests, by all means use your gun. if it's for the simple thrill of the chase, the fieldcraft, the pleasure of time spent outdoors, a camera will work just as well.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 1:35:45 PM EDT
I have about as much remorse about dropping a deer or elk as I do about picking a a package of hamburger or sausage out of the fridge at the grocery store. It's still just food. Some folks just prefer to pay others to do their killing. Nothing inherently wrong with that, in my opinion. There are things I'd just as soon pay someone else to do as well. The only people that bug me are the hypocritical types that decry hunting as they munch down their Quarter Pounder.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 1:37:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By marvl: Mach1, I feel the same. Over the years I've gotten where I can't even step on a bug. I've never understood those who kill beautiful animals and then hang their heads on the wall. That doesn't mean, though, that I wouldn't hunt to survive, or kill worthless vermin to protect my family.
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That's the difference between trophy hunting and hunting to survive. I have no respect for those who trophy hunt, because it goes against my personal beliefs. But I'll shoot a deer for the food it provides. If you sit down at the table and there's meat on your plate, then the blood is on someone's hands regardless. I have no problems with those hands being my own, because I know that I gave thanks for the food that God provided when I took it. But I'll never hang the poor creatures head on my wall because he had a rack. I just don't believe in it. And if you don't feel a slight bit of remorse after the hunt is over then you're doing it for the wrong reasons. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 1:40:19 PM EDT
I never had the opportunity to hunt growing up, so when my uncle took me elk hunting after getting back from the ROK, I had mixed emotions. By the end of the season, after not filling the freezer, I was more than ready to kill an elk. I can't remember how many times I froze that fall on the mountains and in the canyons. Snow, rain, freezing rain and snow, wind, and hardly a sign. Hunted on foot over rugged terrain. I could not believe how damn smart that they are in the first place. Hunting is a good thing. Mr/Mrs elk is gonna go in my freezer ASAP. Good for the herd, good for me. Besides, I need to settle this grudge!
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 1:49:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
Originally Posted By Stormbringer:
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: thats the reason i don't hunt. Don't have anything against it but i also don't feel the need to kill for the thrill of it. I have no problems killing animal that is a threat or ill.
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PETA loves you!!
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So i guees the fact that i don't enjoy killing for the fun of it makes me a peta supporter? What freaking part of "I have no problems killing animal that is a threat or ill." did you not understand? If an animal comes on my property and is a threat/nusance/severly ill or injured i WILL put it down. However if the heard is healthy i don't NEED to take a life just because i have a need to compensate for a defect in my personality. If my family is hungry Bambi is gonna die. As long as there is food available there is no need. I stalk to keep my skills but i don't take shots. jackass [:(!]
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Its the [b]DIRECT[/b] implication that those of us the do hunt do it ONLY for the thrill!! That plays right into the loving arms of PETA. There is far more to hunting than the kill. It is obvious that you have not been properly exposed to them. Just how does the herd/flock remain healthy?? HUNTING thats how!! Unless you are a VEGAN you my friend are a hypocryte....for you DO kill to eat. However you contract out your killing. I happen to do both.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 1:52:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gunman0: I haven't been hunting, yet. First of all, I have no idea how to hunt. Second, I fear I would be extremely bored sitting waiting for an animal to walk within range. But I do like shooting paper and clays.
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Sitting bored?? Hmmm never happens to me. I often take a novel with me in the woods just incase my mind starts to wander.......Everytime I start to read it a squirel or other critter starts to make deer noises!!!
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