Sorry if this has been posted before.. It's the first I saw of it...[pissed]


[url]http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/map/d_list00.html[/url]


Warning...  the following are actual autopsy reports for the victims in Waco...
Actual pictures are also included...  anyone not able to stomach this would be advised not to continue....


Realist out

Grisly, indeed, but it's something that should be required viewing by [u]any[/u] defender of the government's handling of [u]any[/u] aspect of the Mount Carmel Massacre!

Some of us will never get over the horrors we witnessed that April 19, 1993, afternoon. Nor should we.

[b]It is, and will likely remain, the most sublime and exquisite example for all time of the lie, 'We're from the government and we're here to help you.'[/b]

I get so friggin tired of hearing of Israeli mistreatment of Palestinian children, when if you really want to see how the 'Great Satan' can sometimes treat or mistreat its very own children, well....

[b]You need look no further than Waco.[/b]

Eric The(Grieving)Hun[>]:)]

PS: Isn't it ironic that William 'I'm Jealous of Monica' Sessions, the Director at the FBI at the time of the massacre of the children, was a former Mayor of Waco?

Eric, I wasnt aware he was mayor of any town...

Judge Sessions was a private practitioner of law in Waco, Texas, from 1958 until 1969, when he left his firm, Haley, Fulbright, Winniford, Sessions, and Bice, to join the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C., as Chief of the Government Operations Section, Criminal Division.

Well said, Mr. Hun.
I will never forget.

Tyler

It is a total shame those folks could not have had a buried surprise for the CEV the FBI was using against them like the Palestinians used on the Merkerva MBT.

And people wonder why I completely hate cops...

Look at these pics and wonder NO more!

[img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/angryfire.gif[/img]

Everytime I see read about this or something like it, I realize it's time for a change in American government.  I worry, however, that the only way to effect a real change is the way our Forefathers did in the 1770s.  It's going to be real hard to get politicians to vote themselves out of existence.

One is apt to compare this picture with the Iwo Jima flag raising picture.

[img]www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/fig/d_fig06.jpg[/img]

At least, the ATF JBTs will.

Post from realist -

Hmm, I thought I had read that in 'The Ashes of Waco', by Dick Reavis, but it wasn't there. I suppose I must have pickedit up in some urban legend thread. His biography doesn't mention it.

And even though Waco is not the center of the universe, I would suppose that being mayor of it would wind up on one's resume.

Eric The(Corrected)Hun[>]:)]

I am speechless.  Utterly speechless......

"The Land of the Free" huh?  Bravo Sierra...

Eric The(Corrected)Hun

But your are correct that it's "Ironic" that the man was present and practiced Law in Waco for years before 1993.. [:)]

Don't forget that this is also evidence of religion run amok!!

Koresh was whacked, his followers deluded.
I don't think you're saying this should happen to religious extremists minding their own business?

edited for atroshus spelin

Stormbringer
Don't forget that this is also evidence of religion run amok!!

I doubt many here would agree with Koresh's beliefs, but if he was not breaking any laws why would 174 people deserve to be made crispy?

My point is that I do not believe for a moment that these people died to defend your second ammendment rights.  I believe that in part the whole episode has been highjacked ( in part) for the cause.
  These people died because they were deluded and believed that they were following some sort of messiah.

Edited to add that they also died due to the incompetence of the ATF and the KLINGton administration.....I am not blind

Stormbringer

There is still no evidence that these people deserved what the government did to them.

I am still not convinced as to who started the fires.  Who put the bullets into the back of the peoples heads etc.

Were the ATF a little out of control....HELL YES!!!

I was a little busy at the time in the hospital with my wife in labour having our son.....


Bottom line is that they were all a bunch of nut cases if you ask me.  

I still remember watching the tanks move in on that place. Its funny all these years after nothing has changed and the BATF still uses the same BBQ technique today. They all died and the establishment stays the same.

How many more dead tell the truth is common knowledge and those responsible do some time?

"We are all equal, but some are more equal then others." [smash]

Post from Stormbringer -

Of course, they didn't, silly!

[b]They died to save Bill Clinton's sorry ass![/b] He was skeered to death when the press started the clock running on 'Day 1 of the Siege', 'Day 2 of the Siege', etc.

He remembered how the last DemocRat president, Jimmy Carter, had been similarly faced with the counting of the days of the Iranian Hostage crisis, and how it led to his defeat for a second term. Webster Hubble moved for him to end the crisis. He did, she did, the rest is history!

Well, then, at least this tragedy is serving a good purpose after all!

Here's the question for you, [b]Stormbringer[/b]:

[b]Do you feel more safe or less safe because of the government's actions at Waco?[/b]

[u]No[/u] Branch Davidian's death certificate reads 'death due to their own stupidity.' Nor do the children's read 'death due to their parent's stupidity.'

Maybe then the death certificates should all read 'death due to the government's stupidity'!

Yeah, right. Better late than never, eh?

Eric The(AlwaysRightOnTheBigPoints)Hun[>]:)]

Wow, at first I was in total agreement with Eric.  But then I saw how he just used the tragedy at Waco as a segue to dismiss the current attrocities against Palestinians.

He's too darned predictable!

DaMan  

Stormbringer


Bottom line is that they were all a bunch of nut cases if you ask me.

You may well be correct in that statement.

But that is no reason for what took place there.

I looked through some of the autopsy reports, did anybody notice most of the victims who died via gunshot were shot through the heart/aorta?

Well ETH as I Canadian nothing in the states makes me feel more or less safe....we have enough problems with our government at the moment.  However.....neither side of the situation in question was on the up and up.  The Davidians were crazed and the ATF were out of control....NOT a good combination to say the least...

The kids were the worst part of it for certain and BOTH sides are to blame for it.

Post from DaMan -

I give not a piffel or a whit to your agreement with me on anything.

Your views on the Holocaust, and countless other matters, simply convince me that so long as our views are as far away from each other's as is humanly possible, I am happy.

As far as the West is from the East would make me really happy!

So your ideas on what constitutes an 'atrocity', are likewise irrelevant to me!

BTW, how many Jews actually died during the Holocaust?

Eric The(AGuestimateWillSuffice!)Hun[>]:)]

Eric, what exactly are MY views on the Holocaust??!!!

When you try to "slime" ..... AT LEAST BE ACCURATE IN YOUR ACCUSATIONS!

DaMan  

Post from Stormbringer -

It's one thing for a group of private citizens [u]not[/u] to be on the 'up and up' and quite another thing for the government, armed to the teeth with all sorts of powers, weapons, and the laws, not to be on the 'up and up'!

And I would imagine that this would be the thinking in Canada, as well!

If someone had told me thirty years ago that a religious madman was holding children hostage in a church near Waco, Texas, I would have responded with 'My God, I fear for the lives of those children.'

If they had then told me that there were 200 FBI agents within 200 yards of the church building, I [u]would[/u] have said, very much relieved, 'Why didn't you tell me that in the first place?'

'FBI agents in place around the church?'

'Why those children are just as safe as if they were in their own houses with their own parents!'

'The FBI would never do anything that would put the safety of those children at risk!'

Well, it's thirty years later, and I don't have any illusions about the FBI, the ATF, or any police department in the country doing the right thing.

I've seen too many 'SWAT-Team' wannabes doing too much stupid sh|t to make me think that any group of kids are ever safe as long as such idiots think that action is better than waiting!

What the government should have done at Mount Carmel, was to erect a large fence around the church's property, with watchtowers, and put a large sign over the guarded entrance:

[size=4]Mt. Carmel Penitentiary[/size=4]

And they should have given the 'prisioners' in that prison the very same food and medical treatment that the Feds were giving the rioting Mariel Boatlift criminals, who had rioted in Atlanta and Arkansas in the past!

No medical treatment was offered to the Branch Davidians unless they surrendered. This was not the same offer the government made to the rioting Cuban prisoners.  Doctors were permitted to go inside the convict-controlled prisons to give medical aid and treatment to the convicts, without those same convicts having to surrender to authorities.

Why the difference in treatment?

Since when is someone being an 'unconvicted, unindicted American citizen' less to be concerned about than a 'convicted, imprisoned non-American citizen'?

Only in the Clinton Administration, folks, only in the Clinton Administration!

Eric The(NeverForget,NeverAgain)Hun[>]:)]

Did anybody notice that the cuase of death for Dayton (3 y/o) is listed as Stabbed to Death and Isaiah (6 y/o) as Shot to Death.

It's really a shame. I knew the two Andrade sisters when I was in college working at the neighborhood gas station and they were in high school. We lived about 4 blocks apart and I used to see them around town all the time. Both of the girls were very pretty (little hotties) and always seemed nice. I don't know how they got involved with that freak. It's really a shame. I don't think they deserved the hand they were dealt.

Furthermore, and the thing that PISSES me off to no end, is those ATF guys KNEW there were children and babies in that compound, yet they blared loud noise at the building 24-hours a day. Now, regardless of what the adults did, of who was killed, the fact is those babies and the children need their sleep. They are innocent! It seems to me the ATF and FBI could have shown they are the better men by taking that into consideration. Instead, they lowered themselves to the level of thugs, with Janet Reno and Clinton not doing a damn thing about it.

Of course, the stock explanation you will get is something along the lines, "The Koresh people could have surrendered, it would have ended, and the kids would get their sleep." The problem with that disingenuous line of BS is those people would not going to surrender. The end result is the kids suffered.

Anyway, that BS really pissed me off. If I had any respect for the Feds before Waco, it totally disappeared afterwards.

These are some memos found in the trash behind the primary building of the FBI (Federal Bureau of Incompetents) in Washington, D.C. They're probably classified information, and possession of them on your computer system no doubt is considered a federal offense. Enjoy!


>To: FBI Director William Sessions
>From: ATF Agent 2x3276
>Sir:
This small Wacko cult isn't giving in. Do you have any instructions?

Agent 2x3276



>To: ATF Agent 2x3276
>From: FBI Director William Sessions
>Agent:
Try playing "Feelings" over and over again 24 hours a day. That should
get the point across.

The Director



>To: FBI Director William Sessions
>From: ATF Agent 2x3276
>Sir:
Thank you for the suggestion. Unfortunately, playing "Feelings" over  
and over again 24 hours a day has succeeded only in convincing the Wacko folks
that the end of the world is at hand. They're a bit less cooperative now.
Any more suggestions?

Agent 2x3276



>To: ATF Agent 2x3276
>From: FBI Director William Sessions
>Agent:
Add searchlights at night. And add to the playlist something by  
The Partridge Family.

Still The Director



>To: FBI Director William Sessions
>From: ATF Agent 2x3276
>Sir:
They like the Partridge Family.

Agent 2x3276



>To: ATF Agent 2x3276
>From: FBI Director William Sessions
>Agent:
Sickos.

STD


>To: FBI Director William Sessions
>From: ATF Agent 2x3276
>Sir:
We're getting bored out here. Can we go in now?

Agent 2x3276



>To: ATF Agent 2x3276
>From: FBI Director William Sessions
>Agent:
Not until we've wiped their reputation a bit. Notify the reporters  
about Koresh's sexual abuse of young, baby frogs.

The Director and Producer



>To: FBI Director William Sessions
>From: ATF Agent 2x3276
>Sir:
We have no substantiated reports of sexual abuse of young, baby frogs.

Agent 2x3276

This tragedy could easily happen in Bush's regime as well,Hon. I question your grasp of understanding on this topic. Law enforcement doesn't get elected along party lines. Law enforcement officers rise into power because they are willing to obey their superior officers,right or wrong without question, similar and the same as the military. The problem lies in that hierarchy that disciplines its citizens without disciplining itself.


"I lit the fuse three blocks away, but then the light changed, and I had to wait." T. McVeigh

>To: ATF Agent 2x3276
>From: FBI Director William Sessions
>Agent:
Do you have a point?

The Brilliant


>To: FBI Director William Sessions
>From: ATF Agent 2x3276
>Sir:
Unsubstantiated rumors of baby frog abuse will not withstand scrutiny.

Agent 2x3276


>To: ATF Agent 2x3276
>From: FBI Director William Sessions
>Agent:
What scrutiny are you expecting, agent? Who's going to stand up for
a cult leader who's abused baby frogs?

Better than Brilliant



>To: FBI Director William Sessions
>From: ATF Agent 2x3276
>Sir:
We've had a tiny accident at the compound.

Agent 2x3276



>To: ATF Agent 2x3276
>From: FBI Director William Sessions
>Agent:
How tiny?

Better than Brilliant,  

but slighty Worried


>To: FBI Director William Sessions
>From: ATF Agent 2x3276
>Sir:
It kind of like, burned down. Sort of. Sir.

Agent2x3276


>To: ATF Agent 2x3276
>From: FBI Director William Sessions
>Agent:
Notify the press the cultists committed mass suicide by burning down
their compound.
Brilliant, Almost Godlike



>To: FBI Director William Sessions
>From: ATF Agent 2x3276
>Sir:
We haven't gathered any evidence at all yet, let alone of  
a mass suicide.

Pretty Good Agent 2x3276



>To: ATF Agent 2x3276
>From: FBI Director William Sessions
>Agent:
Do you have a point?
Try to remain more formal in your memos.

The BAG Director



>To: FBI Director William Sessions
>From: ATF Agent 2x3276
>Sir:
No sir, thank you sir.

Agent 2x3276



>To: FBI Director William Sessions
>From: President Billy Bob Clinton
>Will:
What the hell are you folks doing over there?

Bill



>To: President William Clinton
>From: FBI Director William Sessions
>Sir:
Just doing our best to maintain law and order on a cult of  
baby-frog-abusing Partridge Family fans, sir.

Director Sessions



>To: FBI Director William Sessions
>From: President Billy Bob Clinton
>Will:
Oh. Okay.

Mr. Bill



>To: Members of the Press
>From: President William Clinton
>Dear Members of the Press:
The FBI has informed me of a tiny error they've made. I take full reponsibility. It wasn't my fault.

The President

Post from grimshaw -

Of course, it could have happened during the Bush Administration - Ruby Ridge happened on his watch. And it could likewise happen in the son's Adminstration, but it's very unlikely!

John Ashcroft is no Janet Reno!

But to get back to your point - So you think Bill Clinton had [u]nothing[/u] to do with pushing Janet Reno towards a quick conclusion to the standoff?

Is that your 'understanding' of the situation?

Eric The('NuffSaid)Hun[>]:)]

Realist, I thought I heard something about the power "accidentally" going off at the morgue where the remains of the victims were being stored and much evidence lost.

Any truth to that?

DaMan

I feel there is plenty of blame on both sides.  If they had not fired on the ATF when they tried to serve the search warrant they would probably still be alive.  If the ATF had not embellished to get a warrant, they would probably be alive.

They could have left their building anytime after the initial siege. David Koreash knew that he could never leave so he stalled and broke promises during the entire siege.  How could he surrender to the very people he claimed were evil and would destroy them.

DaMan, It's my understanding that the FBI intentionally cut off the power....


Evidence that would be useful in establishing governmentculpability, or in exonerating the Branch Davidians, has disappearedunder questionable circumstances, or been tampered with.


Why did the FBI cut off the refrigeration at the morgue in FortWorth without notice to relatives of those Davidians whose bodies werekept there?  A wrongful death suit filed by Ramsey Clark on behalf ofthe families alleges that this action caused "remains of deceasedchurch members to disintegrate."  Who gave that order?  And why?


[url]http://www.rkba.org/ccrkba/waco-hearings.7jul95[/url]

It took a while, but I cross referenced Cause of Death, Age, and Names to generate a couple of lists showing who died and how Those who were Identified and Listed (Only about Half)

Enjoy:

[url]http://noreno.no-ip.com:800/Waco_Deaths.htm[/url]

[url]http://noreno.no-ip.com:800/Waco_Stats.htm[/url]

[left]Do you guys notice that the Government
"BANS" guns to keep from "CHILDREN" from dying but the "GOVERNMENT" had no "PROBLEM BURNING, SHOOTING" at a house/church with kids in it. wow! is it me or that "SAVE THE CHILDREN" BS is what it is BS. what the hell can we do about it? well id say enough is enough. one more point the same "SAVE THE CHILDREN" government had no problem shooting randy weaver's son in the "BACK".[/left]

As I recall, the original warrant was to find guns illegally converted to full auto. Were any such converted guns ever found or produced?

I wan't every bit of this imformation used
against Janet Reno in her run fo Governor
in Florida!
Regardless of your party lines you must understand what a pathetic POS of a human she and her friends the Clinton's are.

WACO was a totally avoidable circumstance!

Seeing Janet Reno walking the streets
as a free citizen is no different than
watching OJ. Simpson enjoy his freedom.

[url=http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june01/reno_1-18.html][b]Janet Reno Interview by Jim Leher on January 18, 2001:[/b][/url]

JIM LEHRER: What was your darkest day or what was your darkest time during these eight years?

JANET RENO: Well, you were there. I was... It was Waco.

JIM LEHRER: Yeah, yeah. I'm sure you've spent a lot of time thinking about that. What went wrong?

JANET RENO: One... [b]It's obvious what went wrong[/b], but one will never know what the right answer was, because one doesn't know what Koresh would have done two weeks later without any provocation, so we just have to learn. And one of the things that I think it's important to do is to make sure that the FBI, when it... rather than inheriting situations, designs the initiative from the beginning.

JIM LEHRER: You kind of burst out on the public scene as a result of Waco, as a result of your saying, "[b]I was responsible. I made the decision,[/b] and I will live with it." Is that how you feel about it now, too?

JANET RENO: I sure do.

JIM LEHRER: You do bear... you do feel you were responsible?

JANET RENO: I made the decision. [i] {Backtracking Bitch!! Notice she won't say she's responsible anymore!!} [/i]

JIM LEHRER: And did you make the decision... do you think you made the wrong decision?

JANET RENO: I'll never know.  Clearly, if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't do it, but I don't know whether I could have avoided it down the line. [b]There are those that have reviewed this case in-depth and said he could have done the same thing two weeks later with people not bothering him at all.[/b]


[img]http://www.pbs.org/newshour/images/politics/jan-june01/reno1.jpg[/img]

[i]{ And here I would like to insert a single picture of one of her victims [XX(], but I think that would get the thread locked }[/i]

Waco: The Rules of Engagement
[url]www.waco93.com[/url]

The FLIR Project
[url]www.flirproject.com[/url]

Waco: A New Revelation

How about the fact that the FBI intentionally gassed the kids?  In "Waco, Rules of Engagement" there is footage of a news conference where the FBI spokesman in San Antonio says that they gassed the kids to bring out the "motherly instincts" of the parents so they would surrender.

To me, the Waco Massacre has a lot of similarities to the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.  A bunch of people who were originally minding their own business are assaulted with armored vehicles, their homes razed, and they are gleefully gassed.  Finally, the survivors were prosecuted.  

Except the General in charge of the Warsaw Ghetto was hanged.  Janet "The Butcher of Waco" Reno, on the other hand, is running for office.

I don't care what planet you're from.  This is a MAN!

[img]www.pbs.org/newshour/images/politics/jan-june01/reno1.jpg[/img]

WAS A MAN!

And not much of a man at that.

A picture of an ATF flag flying under a state flag with a bunch of guys in BDUs walking around says it all.  As far as I'm concerned the ATF operates outside the law.  They are repugnant to the constitution.

I suppose now I'll wake up to the sounds of Motley Crue blaring through the windows.  They wouldn't be that cruel would they? [rolleyes]

Family memebers, previous blood samples personal items such as hair brushes