[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Moderators - please lock this - (Page 1 of 5)
Posted: 4/24/2010 12:38:35 PM EDT
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Thanks
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Happened several times in WWII. One soldier interviewed for Stephen Ambrose's book "Citizen Soldiers" relates how they gunned down about 15 Germans who were standing in a bomb crater with their hands up. This was after the Battle of the Bulge. The incident in Band Of Brothers of Lt. Speers gunning down prisoners is true according to Major Winter's. Speers also once killed a Sgt. who was drunk and refused orders. No doubt this is just the tip of the iceberg. According to one book I read, the 1st Marine Division did not take one single prisoner in WWII. Granted the Japanese tended to fight to the death, but there must have been some wounded Japanese soldiers laying around.
Soldiers on both side hated snipers. They were almost never taken prisoner. |
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Understandable, but dangerous.
If the enemy gets wind that surrender = death, they'll fight to the death and probably cause even more casualties as a result. This is why it's a strategically good idea to treat prisoners well. Who knows what the circumstances were of that little scene, but you can bet any other Germans hiding in the bushes probably kept a hold of their guns and got ready to inflict more losses since they were going to die one way or the other. Incidentally, both Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers showed Americans shooting German prisoners. |
You have to remember at this time, there were stories of German's massacring US Troops who surrendered. Not too many US troops on the spear tip would extend the same courtesy of Germans peacefully surrendering if given a chance.
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This massacre was committed on December 17, 1944, by Kampfgruppe Peiper (part of the 1st SS Panzer Division), a German combat unit, during the Battle of the Bulge. None of the convicted SS soldiers were ever executed and by 1956, all of them had been released from prison. |
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Understandable, but dangerous. If the enemy gets wind that surrender = death, they'll fight to the death and probably cause even more casualties as a result. This is why it's a strategically good idea to treat prisoners well. Who knows what the circumstances were of that little scene, but you can bet any other Germans hiding in the bushes probably kept a hold of their guns and got ready to inflict more losses since they were going to die one way or the other. Incidentally, both Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers showed Americans shooting German prisoners. Which was historically accurate. We didn't ride down from the clouds on unicorns and wave magic wands to stop the Nazis. We sent imperfect mortal men to fucking kill them. |
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Narrator sure does like to interject the word Sharfschutzen at every opportunity while showing a lot of archival footage of standard Wermacht solderzen und fallenshirmaggen.
I didn't see any executions either. At about 7 minutes in, I saw three individuals fired upon to drop them to the ground. There was no follow up showing dead bodies in the positions and location they sought cover. You are aware the Germans routinely executed American and British snipers when captured as they considered thm to have foresaken their rights under the Geneva convention????? Shit happens but I am calling  for lack of anything but conjecture on the part of the moviemaker.
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American investigators at the U. S. Court in Dachau, Germany, used the following methods to obtain confessions: Beatings and brutal kickings. Knocking out teeth and breaking jaws. Mock trials. Solitary confinement. Posturing as priests. Very limited rations. Spiritual deprivation. Promises of acquittal. Complaints concerning these third degree methods were received by Secretary of the Army Kenneth Royall last Spring (1948).
All but two of the Germans, in the 139 cases we investigated, had been kicked in the testicles beyond repair. This was Standard Operating Procedure with American investigators.
Now today, the US is full of pussies who coddle terrorists when our fathers beat the crap (literally) out of Nazi's. |
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I don't believe in taking prisoners, only scalps. There are pragmatic reasons for taking prisoners. When the enemy figures out you won't take them prisoner, they'll keep fighting and killing your guys past the point they ordinarily would have surrendered. Simply out of desperation. And God forbid, if they take some of your guys prisoner, they probably won't treat them so well. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I don't believe in taking prisoners, only scalps. There are pragmatic reasons for taking prisoners. When the enemy figures out you won't take them prisoner, they'll keep fighting and killing your guys past the point they ordinarily would have surrendered. Simply out of desperation. And God forbid, if they take some of your guys prisoner, they probably won't treat them so well. We've never had an enemy that took adequate care of American POW's. Kill everything that moves. |
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I'm sure it was up to the individuals on the field if they accepted the surrender or just killed them. Just like here in GD, I'm sure there were soldiers at both ends of the spectrum, those that took prisoners and those that just shot them al Its interesting that in a book I read about the German battleship Bismarck, after she sunk, Allied battleships picked up a bunch of the survivors.... I think people don't take it as personally if its two giant metal things lobbing shells a few miles at each other versus seeing your buddies get shot by German soldiers 20 yards away. |
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I have seen that clip. The narration was someing to the effect that the German snipers were shot because they would shoot advancing Americans until the last second, and then surrender. I guess it doesn't make sense to shoot a couple of guys and then try to surrender to his buddies. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
Let me fully explain the snipers that surrendered , They only surrendered after they ran out of ammo from shooting Americans. My Dad was a 101st abn, D-Day vet. He pretty much explained to me that the Germans killed Americans then surrendered after they ran out of ammo. His feeling was that if they were sincere about surrendering they should have surrendered when they had ammo left , plus they hindered troop movement. I had this discussion with him . He admitted to shooting Germans when they surrendered. They were not sincere about it. Not to mention he watched his best friend that he grew up get head shot in the hedgerows , He took no prisoners. there are consequences for your actions . If you shoot at people with more ammo than you you might get shot when you run out of ammo. 
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Happened several times in WWII. One soldier interviewed for Stephen Ambrose's book "Citizen Soldiers" relates how they gunned down about 15 Germans who were standing in a bomb crater with their hands up. This was after the Battle of the Bulge. The incident in Band Of Brothers of Lt. Speers gunning down prisoners is true according to Major Winter's. Speers also once killed a Sgt. who was drunk and refused orders. No doubt this is just the tip of the iceberg. According to one book I read, the 1st Marine Division did not take one single prisoner in WWII. Granted the Japanese tended to fight to the death, but there must have been some wounded Japanese soldiers laying around. Soldiers on both side hated snipers. They were almost never taken prisoner. after a few of thier medics were killed by "surrendering" wounded and some Japaneese who feigned surrender and then blew themselves and ther captors up with hidden grenades they stopped taking chances |
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I saw something like that on the Military Channel a while back. As American ( & Allied ) troops pushed the Germans back, German units would leave behind snipers (trained or otherwise) to shoot the Americans who thought they were entering abandoned towns or villages. Slowed down the advance, and gave the Germans time to set up in new positions.
Then, the snipers would surrender, knowing GIs were good guys. After a month or so of that, General Marshall became so infuriated at the "game" the Germans were playing that he issued a carte blanche order saying he didn't want any more "snipers" taken prisoner for the duration of the war. The Germans wouldn't have thought twice about trying that shit on the Russians. |
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What did he say? Look, Ma Ma I washed for dinner! http://www.imfdb.org/images/9/9b/SPRM1Garand-6.jpg It's war, shit happens.... Huh, does that Garand have m1 carbine style cutouts in it in the movie, or is that a shop? |
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Horrible, shitty thing, but that's war for you.
For all of you saying that its OK to kill these men, you all think they should have kept fighting, kept on pulling the trigger on American servicemen? 
After all, if you say its fine to kill them when they give up, why the fuck wouldn't they keep fighting and killing Americans, gonna die anyways. |
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Horrible, shitty thing, but that's war for you. For all of you saying that its OK to kill these men, you all think they should have kept fighting, kept on pulling the trigger on American servicemen?
After all, if you say its fine to kill them when they give up, why the fuck wouldn't they keep fighting and killing Americans, gonna die anyways. This, this a thousand times this. Why do you think the Germans in the East got so desperate from late 1944-45? Because they knew how fucking horrible the Reds were to their occupied territories. FFS, they had old men and teenage boys defending Berlin. |
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Quoted: On the other hand, the Germans were just as bad in occupied Russia as well. Nearly every Red Army solder has a personal reason to get back at the Germans.Quoted: Horrible, shitty thing, but that's war for you. For all of you saying that its OK to kill these men, you all think they should have kept fighting, kept on pulling the trigger on American servicemen? After all, if you say its fine to kill them when they give up, why the fuck wouldn't they keep fighting and killing Americans, gonna die anyways. This, this a thousand times this. Why do you think the Germans in the East got so desperate from late 1944-45? Because they knew how fucking horrible the Reds were to their occupied territories. FFS, they had old men and teenage boys defending Berlin. This is the nature of two totalitarian governments fighting each other. |
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After the war, the Germans attempted to bring a list of 369 murder cases, involving US Army soldiers killing German POWs and wounded men, before a German court, but the cases were thrown out. I believe social etiquette dictates the agressor-turned-loser doesn't get to whine––about anything. 
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On the other hand, the Germans were just as bad in occupied Russia as well. Nearly every Red Army solder has a personal reason to get back at the Germans.
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Horrible, shitty thing, but that's war for you. For all of you saying that its OK to kill these men, you all think they should have kept fighting, kept on pulling the trigger on American servicemen?
After all, if you say its fine to kill them when they give up, why the fuck wouldn't they keep fighting and killing Americans, gonna die anyways. This, this a thousand times this. Why do you think the Germans in the East got so desperate from late 1944-45? Because they knew how fucking horrible the Reds were to their occupied territories. FFS, they had old men and teenage boys defending Berlin. This is the nature of two totalitarian governments fighting each other. Hey, if you worship a guy like Stalin, maybe that kind of treatment is karmic in nature.
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Horrible, shitty thing, but that's war for you. For all of you saying that its OK to kill these men, you all think they should have kept fighting, kept on pulling the trigger on American servicemen?
After all, if you say its fine to kill them when they give up, why the fuck wouldn't they keep fighting and killing Americans, gonna die anyways. Generally I agree with this but, I wonder how many lives were saved when the Germans figured out that they couldn't shoot US troops right up until the last moment and then surrender. Fair is fair so to speak, and your argument works both ways. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Quoted: Happened several times in WWII. One soldier interviewed for Stephen Ambrose's book "Citizen Soldiers" relates how they gunned down about 15 Germans who were standing in a bomb crater with their hands up. This was after the Battle of the Bulge. The incident in Band Of Brothers of Lt. Speers gunning down prisoners is true according to Major Winter's. Speers also once killed a Sgt. who was drunk and refused orders. No doubt this is just the tip of the iceberg. According to one book I read, the 1st Marine Division did not take one single prisoner in WWII. Granted the Japanese tended to fight to the death, but there must have been some wounded Japanese soldiers laying around. Soldiers on both side hated snipers. They were almost never taken prisoner. I'm curious how he managed to avoid murder charges. Is it an officer's prerogative to shoot those under his command for mutiny? |
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Quoted: Meh, I believe no side can really claim any sort of moral superiority on the Eastern Front, it was the true apex of total war.Quoted: Quoted: On the other hand, the Germans were just as bad in occupied Russia as well. Nearly every Red Army solder has a personal reason to get back at the Germans.Quoted: Horrible, shitty thing, but that's war for you. For all of you saying that its OK to kill these men, you all think they should have kept fighting, kept on pulling the trigger on American servicemen? After all, if you say its fine to kill them when they give up, why the fuck wouldn't they keep fighting and killing Americans, gonna die anyways. This, this a thousand times this. Why do you think the Germans in the East got so desperate from late 1944-45? Because they knew how fucking horrible the Reds were to their occupied territories. FFS, they had old men and teenage boys defending Berlin. This is the nature of two totalitarian governments fighting each other. Hey, if you worship a guy like Stalin, maybe that kind of treatment is karmic in nature. I remember watching an interview with a German veteran saying that it was more common than one would think for a German soldier to commit suicide than to be captured by the Reds. Flipping that around, just under half of all Russian POW's survived the war. |
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Horrible, shitty thing, but that's war for you. For all of you saying that its OK to kill these men, you all think they should have kept fighting, kept on pulling the trigger on American servicemen?
After all, if you say its fine to kill them when they give up, why the fuck wouldn't they keep fighting and killing Americans, gonna die anyways. Agreed. This is a case of "if we do it then it is fine" but "if they do it they are Nazi scum". The hypocricy is amazing. It gives liberals a case of ammo to use against us in every war debate.
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Quoted: Horrible, shitty thing, but that's war for you. For all of you saying that its OK to kill these men, you all think they should have kept fighting, kept on pulling the trigger on American servicemen? After all, if you say its fine to kill them when they give up, why the fuck wouldn't they keep fighting and killing Americans, gonna die anyways. BTW, I do agree with this. |
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There was a thread a few months back and I got totally ripped by saying "war is hell" when the discussion of German's killing prisoners came up. Both sides did it. We were no less brutal than the Germans. Six million Jews beg to differ.... 
We are talking about solder to soldier. Let's keep it in context. A relatively small number of German soldiers were Einsatzgruppen. |