[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Kent State... (Page 1 of 8)
Posted: 4/4/2010 10:31:43 PM EDT
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Anybody willing to educate a fellow on the Kent State incident?
I read the wiki entry on it, but there has to be more to the story. |
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Anybody willing to educate a fellow on the Kent State incident? I read the wiki entry on it, but there has to be more to the story. Read Kent State: What Happened and Why by James A. Michener. About the most unbiased account of the events leading up to the shootings I've read. |
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Originally Posted By retgarr: Originally Posted By wingnutx: Someone accidentally all the hippies. You would do well to read the wikipedia article and remember that one was a well respected ROTC student. Others were not involved at all and just trying to get across campus. You would do well to lighten up, Frances. |
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hippies formed a drum circle, turned into a protest, ended up assaulting the national guard with rocks, who then opened fire, the same way that a cop would if you were throwing rocks at them. hippies got shot, some died. good shoot. You missed the part where those killed were actually not present at the protest and included a ROTC cadet. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Someone accidentally all the hippies. You would do well to read the wikipedia article and remember that one was a well respected ROTC student. Others were not involved at all and just trying to get across campus. You would do well to lighten up, Frances. It's spelled Francis!  |
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Couldn't one make the case that what happened at Kent State was similar to the Boston Massacre? Inexperienced armed soldiers in both instances opening fire on a group of people attacking them by throwing rocks/objects. Good call! Idiots with rocks + idiots with guns = dead idiots with rocks... Play stupid games, win stupid prizes |
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Interesting responses. NG guys not trained to active Army standards? OR Did the Kent State students push things too far? (I read the wiki entry and it seemed unclear...) Both. Is riot control something regularly trained on??? I can imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the Tinfoil Arftards if that was true. |
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Quoted: Anybody willing to educate a fellow on the Kent State incident? I read the wiki entry on it, but there has to be more to the story. Riotous kids throw bottles & such at national guardsmen armed with nothing but M1 Garands & lethal ammo... Guardsmen use the only weapons they have available.... People get hit, people die - and not just the ones who's actions drew the gunfire... Anti-war fuckheads get a cause-celebre... Policy is reviewed, someone (uh-duh) finally figures out it might make sense to give the Guard crowd-control training before using them in such situations.... |
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Quoted: Quoted: Interesting responses. NG guys not trained to active Army standards? OR Did the Kent State students push things too far? (I read the wiki entry and it seemed unclear...) Both. Is riot control something regularly trained on??? I can imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the Tinfoil Arftards if that was true. Back then it wasn't something that was regularly trained... Hence the loadout & deployment of the Guard troops.... Riot gear of the time was dogs, shield/helmet/baton, and fire-hoses... Not M1s & 30-06... |
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Interesting responses. NG guys not trained to active Army standards? OR Did the Kent State students push things too far? (I read the wiki entry and it seemed unclear...) Both. Is riot control something regularly trained on??? I can imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the Tinfoil Arftards if that was true. Back then it wasn't something that was regularly trained... Hence the loadout & deployment of the Guard troops.... Riot gear of the time was dogs, shield/helmet/baton, and fire-hoses... Not M1s & 30-06... Dave, I am Infantry and we certainly do not train in crowd control.... |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Interesting responses. NG guys not trained to active Army standards? OR Did the Kent State students push things too far? (I read the wiki entry and it seemed unclear...) Both. Is riot control something regularly trained on??? I can imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the Tinfoil Arftards if that was true. Back then it wasn't something that was regularly trained... Hence the loadout & deployment of the Guard troops.... Riot gear of the time was dogs, shield/helmet/baton, and fire-hoses... Not M1s & 30-06... Dave, I am Infantry and we certainly do not train in crowd control.... Back then, I don't think ANY Guard units trained crowd control... IIRC, it changed for some afterward.... Did they actually send an Infantry unit to that mission?  I know Armor sure as hell doesn't train crowd control - gunnery prep & gunnery seem to take our drill time.... Besides - our 16 man platoons (Including the LT) ain't gonna control shit... |
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Interesting responses. NG guys not trained to active Army standards? OR Did the Kent State students push things too far? (I read the wiki entry and it seemed unclear...) They pushed too far, considering the Guardsmen were already on edge. This particular unit had just came off of a violent Teamsters strike, then were routed to a chaotic campus full of unrest, and rebellious young idiots who ignored local law enforcement's reading of the "riot act". The protesters were belligerent and converging on the Guardsmen. Something had to give. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Interesting responses. NG guys not trained to active Army standards? OR Did the Kent State students push things too far? (I read the wiki entry and it seemed unclear...) Both. Is riot control something regularly trained on??? I can imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the Tinfoil Arftards if that was true. Back then it wasn't something that was regularly trained... Hence the loadout & deployment of the Guard troops.... Riot gear of the time was dogs, shield/helmet/baton, and fire-hoses... Not M1s & 30-06... Dave, I am Infantry and we certainly do not train in crowd control.... Guard guys are different, back in NEB I was in a guard unit (CAV) that was designated to respond to riot incidents within the state. We all got riot training regardless of MOS. Although while in AZ I received no riot training presumably because my unit was not designated to respond. Edit for clarity. |
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Quoted: I fucking hate hippies. They attack cops, get shot, then piss and moan about the consequences. Hippies suck at transcendental plateau's. And how does that relate to the Kent State shooting, since the people shot were not "fucking hippies attacking cops?" Wrongly lump people together much? "I fucking hate ___________." It's my guess you use this sentence a lot. |
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I'm just gonna' save this spot for when I get home from work. Then, I'll explain a bit of the leading up to of the confrontation at KSU. Little things, like the damage to businesses on Water Street, the destruction of my Uncle Bud's paint store, (paint for those signs had to come from someplace), and the general feelings of the people who lived next to the mess.
A good rule of thumb though for any situation like KSU, when told to go home, don't hang around waiting to get shot. |
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You must put the shooting in the context of the time and the circumstances ongoing in America. We were literally tearing ourselves apart. The cultural and generational war at home was as hot as the Vietnam War. The NG troops should not have been using loaded M1s. They were poorly trained in crowd control. There were too few of them. They were isolated and surrounded by the crowd. They were scared, armed and poorly led. They lost control of the situation, panicked and killed innocent people. Those of you who simply state that the hippies deserved it are foolishly ignorant of the true facts surrounding the shooting. Hippies didn't get killed. Sons and daughters of America were killed. |
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Throwing rocks and shit at people with rifles will get you shot every time. So you're happy for troops to use deadly force against protestors? Didn't something like that start some war back in 1775? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. You throw rocks at someone with a rifle, and it's not going to end well. |
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Interesting responses. NG guys not trained to active Army standards? OR Did the Kent State students push things too far? (I read the wiki entry and it seemed unclear...) Out-of-state agitators came on to campus. One reason they did so is that a signifigant part of the NG was involved in security at some sort of union strike/walk-out recently, and the campus agitators were trying to over-stress law enforcement, the fire fighters, and the NG.... ...plus there is credible evidence that the NG was actually fired on first. |
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I fucking hate hippies. They attack cops, get shot, then piss and moan about the consequences. Hippies suck at transcendental plateau's. And how does that relate to the Kent State shooting, since the people shot were not "fucking hippies attacking cops?" Wrongly lump people together much? "I fucking hate ___________." It's my guess you use this sentence a lot. At least ONE of the shootees had just chunked a brick at the guardsmen and was screaming and flipping the bird when he got shot in the face. Play stupid games..... |
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Throwing rocks and shit at people with rifles will get you shot every time. So you're happy for troops to use deadly force against protestors? Didn't something like that start some war back in 1775? Im not saying im happy about it.. Im just saying, this is what happens when people with out guns try and confront people with guns.. There are ways to protest and show your dusgust with the current state of affairs in this country. Tossing rocks and other heavy objects at armed troops, while you are not armed, is not one of them that i would condone partake in. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Interesting responses. NG guys not trained to active Army standards? OR Did the Kent State students push things too far? (I read the wiki entry and it seemed unclear...) Both You also have to consider that the protests just weren't at Kent. There were other campuses that were even wilder, where everyone on both sides were seriously considering the possibility of someone getting killed. The weekend leading up to the shootings was a particularly high and wild time on many campuses in Ohio. The NG troops never really have been too clear about how or why the order to open fire was given. Personally, I think there was no such order given and things just kind of happened. My dad had just gotten out of the Guard a year or two before that. It was his belief that if the fire was intentional the death toll would have been much higher. A hundred yards with a Garand is like shooting fish in a barrel. Especially when you have the hippies gathered up in a group on the low ground. I knew one guy who got sentenced to life in a wheelchair over the incident. He insisted that he was not taking part in the protest but was in the area checking out the scene between a couple of classes. He was about 100 yards away and walking out of the area when he was hit. I challenge anyone to throw a rock 100 yards. |
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Throwing rocks and shit at people with rifles will get you shot every time. So you're happy for troops to use deadly force against protestors? Didn't something like that start some war back in 1775? Refresh my memory - before the Boston Masacre, how many local business had been looted, how many campus buildings burned down, and how many firemen attacked and fire hoses cut, just before? these were not peaceful hippies singing "Kumbayah" and buying the world a Coke - a brick upside the head can kill you dead. |
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Army: 4 Kent State: 0 Considering that two of the wounded were not protesting and were just walking to class but were hit by rounds that either missed their mark or were fired indiscriminately, you should revise your score. And in any case, it was poorly conducted and excessive force was used. |
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Throwing rocks and shit at people with rifles will get you shot every time. So you're happy for troops to use deadly force against protestors? Didn't something like that start some war back in 1775? Refresh my memory - before the Boston Masacre, how many local business had been looted, how many campus buildings burned down, and how many firemen attacked and fire hoses cut, just before? these were not peaceful hippies singing "Kumbayah" and buying the world a Coke - a brick upside the head can kill you dead. Hmmmm… and a metal helmet doesn't provide any protection against rocks? 
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