How does the opinion of anyone anywhere for the "military industrial war machine" affect your views of the actual grunts in the American military? You're not fooling anyone here. You hate the American military for your own reasons and justifications, not because of what anyone else thinks.


Thousands of Americans murdered on American soil.


Does anyone really need to hear anything further from you? You're openly advocating terrorist violence against the United States. Someone you care about could be hurt or killed in the next terrorist attack. Maybe then you'll feel like you've got skin in this game.

Well, as long as he isn't expected to win them...



And my low regard for you is completely justified by this asinine statement.



Yes, your lies have always been embarrassingly obvious.



Yes I do.  



Then PLEASE get the hell out of it.  I don't want you here. I am ashamed you're an American citizen.

Wow, how unlikely that someone with this sterling attitude would get into any trouble with the police...

How does the saying go?

"You're known by the company you keep."

Lib's in *great* company...

That guy is some piece of work.  Germany attacking America in WWII?  Is he really that stupid or was that just some pathetic attempt at humor?  And tell me this, is that the best pic he could come up for his byline?  I can't tell if he's getting and enema or desperately needs one.
I know his type well, actually know someone just like him.  Likes to get his jollys on pushing people's buttons and getting in their face then becomes indignant and oh-so offended when someone smacks him down because he has a "right to free speech".  Yeah right.  Freedom of speech doesn't give you the freedom to be an a-hole.  There used to be an unwritten right too; the right to get your ass kicked when you've got it coming.  Spout your mouth off to the wrong guy and retribution would be swift.  The problem is that the more "civilized" we become the more idiots like this guy flourish.  The same thing is happening with the criminal element.  Used to be when the criminal stepped out of line it was the "victim" who would put him in his place.  When they took that ability away from the average Joe the criminal element flourished.  Now that it's been handed over to our revolving-door resort style justice system it's slipped even further.  I'm no proponent of police brutality by any stretch of the imagination.  I do however like to stay out of trouble and know how and when to watch my mouth.  This isn't about a police state, it's about a total loss of decorum.  There's a thing called social diplomacy that unfortuately seems to be fading rapidly in our society.  Whether in dealing with the police or here on line we seem to be losing our ability to communicate in a respectful manner.  Remember the golden rule; Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You.  Act like an ass, don't be suprised when you get treated like one.  

First of all the LEO had right to do what he did. Second of all the other guy had a right to do what he did also. Only problem he was going to lose. If he just told the LEO what he was doing and not tried to be a bad ass, he just might have been told to leave.

I see this everyday you want to be a pain when asked if PROBABLE CAUSE is there. Pay the consequences. I see the same LEO every day let people go who don't hassle them, and also give those who do a hard time.

This guy was wrong and paid for it. Yes we live in a police state. We better get use to it or change it. Have respect for people and get respect back. I also know LEO are not God's, and you don't have to bow to them. You just have to respect when they do their jobs, when they have PROBABLE CAUSE.

Yeah, I wear a black vest with steel inserts and a helmet because I have a "Rambo" complex.  I wear it to keep from gettin STABBED dammit.  



Yep, no problem, they wont come for my house.  They may, however, hit the nerve agent storage facility 50 miles down the road, causing a cloud of poisonous gas to drift this way, but I can fight that with my leaky gas mask with filters from vietnam.



Then why are you still in MY country pissing and moaning.  Move.  Why is it that some people feel the need to make statements like "If that means sending SF into other countries, so be it" in the same posts they bitch about military and say they have no use for it?

Calling the US a police state is an insult to all the people the world over who really do live in a police state.

Here's a simple solution to you anti-American types who don't give a shit about the fact that every fucking day, thousands of men & women put their lives in danger for YOU: Don't like America; it "isn't your country?" Fine. Get the fuck out. Feel it's okay to just ignore laws you don't agree with? Fine. Get the fuck out. Find some shit-hole of a country to live in.

You know what, this son of a bitch can kiss my red,white and blue ass!  [pissed][pissed][pissed]

No one from his socio-economic background ever joined the military?  Oh my god am I hot right now!  That weasel little f@ck didn't join the military because they didn't have "don't ask, don't tell" then.  Or, maybe it was because he might have been in my platoon and I would broken his crybaby whiner ass in two in the showers one night.

I think I now know why this T-shirt slogan was created:  "Some people are alive simply because it is illegal to kill them"

Stupidity hurts-this is living proof.
I just think that if you go looking for x you will find x. In this case he had a bad case of 'I hate the Man cause he is oppressin me' and was justly rewarded. This is definately a tale from the shallow end of the gene pool.

Somebody [b]PLEASE[/b] chlorinate that gene pool![heavy]

Virginity like bubble, one prick, all gone

R35

I suggest you haul ass over to Afghanistan where some of my friends have DIED in the past weeks.

No matter what you say about anywhere in America, it's not as bad as where we fight now.  I fight for my country and my brothers, no matter the unit, no matter the service.  I don't know jarhead_22 personally, but I can tell you one thing, he's one Marine I'd damn sure follow through any door.  It's called honor.    

So just shut up "trickshot".  Let the men go fight the war so you and the rest of the children don't have to.

And YES... if I have to give my life so this country remains safe from terrorism, I will.   I am part of the greatest military in the world, and we WILL win.

-SARguy

There are good cops & bad cops - just like there is good and evil everywhere in the world.

I know a LOT of good ones... and I have met a very few "bad apples" over the years. FWIW I believe that this thread was written with "cop-bashing" intent.

Hmmmm...

Here is Texas law on Failure to Identify
Penal Code 38.02 Failure to Identify  B/C Misd.
(a) A person commits an offence if he intentionally refuses to give his NAME, RESIDENCE ADDRESS, or DATE OF BIRTH to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.
(b) A person commits an offence if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious NAME, RESIDENCE ADDRESS, or DATE OF BIRTH to a peace officer who has:
 (1)Lawfully arrested the person:
 (2)Lawfully detained the person; or
 (3)requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offence.
This is a class c misd. unless the person is a fugitive from justice, then it is a class b misd.
The officer had pc to at least ask him who he was. At the point that the officer stated he was not aloud to leave he was technically arrested.
You might look at Terry v. State. It not only talks about frisk but also talks about the right of an officer to detain a person in a suspicious place and a suspicious time, so that the officer may investigate for criminal activity.

I just had a wonderful revelation for trickshot and libertyof76 both. If you think our (collective) police force is so terrible, get involved. Go to work for a local LE agency, and show them how they SHOULD do their jobs. Since you obviously understand the situations these guys face so much better than they do, teach them, let them learn by your glorious example. Live their lives, see their fears, frustrations, trials, tribulations; the A$$holes, scumbags, perverts, and idiots, and the upstanding individuals who are in a hurry too.

What you two don't seem to get is that these are the guys who don't get called until the shit is on the fan in a lot of cases, and fixin to hit the fan in a whole lot more. They see society at its finest (I hope you will get the sarcasm) as their main clientele, and have to deal with the rest of us to boot.

I do not think that any of this gives them the right to mistreat the general public, but it does command a little respect. These men and women are out there doing a job that some see as beneath them, and some are just flat unwilling to do. I for one am willing, and that is my professional goal. I want to be a cop. I want to make things better. I want to put the bad guys in their place, and to make this a safer world for my loved ones and yours. And as much as you sniveling, whiny, crybaby attitudes turn my stomach, for you too. I want you to have the right to spout your pu$$y rhetoric, because it is your right.

I do not condone the actions of the bad apples that are out there, and they are out there, so I want to make sure that when my turn comes, I do it right. This idiot you began this thread by taking up for, liberty, deserves exactly what he got, and probably then some. It is truly a shame to see someone who lives in the greatest nation on the face of the earth, BITCHING because it is not exactly what he wants. That you could have constructed such a pompous little ideal in you mind, speaks very poorly for you indeed, and the fact that rather that do something to make things better, you would sit back and espouse what is so obviously BS, only verifies my opinion of you. Have a wonderful day in Lala Land, or wherever it is that you pass your time.

[stick] hopefully someday reality will find you too.

[img]https://www.keepandbeararms.com/images/fearless_FBI_500w.jpg[/img]

fixed pic

OK, we have varying stories on some of this.
from Oly we have ID not required (and SSN never required) unless there PC that a crime is occurring.  Norm G mentioned ID usually required (and license, I think) if you are driving on a road.

In this situation, as described by the foo' Russell Stein, he was not actually driving at the time, but he was in a vehicle, and for the sake of discussion, let's say he couldn't get anywhere without driving on the public streets, and couldn't leave his car in the school parking lot for fear it would be towed away.

So is he close enough to driving to justify an ID check? Or do the police have to out-wait him until he is rolling on the street?

Next thing:  Possibility of a crime & PC
If he's just sitting there, not showing any sign of a criminal act (forgetting for the moment a possible trespass) and there's no report of a criminal act the,  I think Oly says ID not required in those circumstances, though you might well want to cooperate.

I want to believe that you COULD decide to politely (unlike this Stein jerk) decline to ID yourself when its not required, and suffer no more than a dirty look.

On the other hand, how often do officers decide that this kind of response "raises suspicion" or causes the citizen to "flunk the attitude test" or says that it "makes me think you have someting to hide"?

Supposing the citizen is left to continue to do what ever they were lawfully doing, is it justifiable for the police to watch and wait?

To follow him if he decides to leave ?  (oops, you're now on the street - license and registration, please)

How about to continue to follow him, in the hopes that he'll get nervous enough to make a violation?

My impression is that in the field, these kind of things do happen.  Not by every officer, but is it safe to say that a significant proportion would adopt such tactics?

A lawyer who doesn't know the law and a child who exagerates his qualifications and experience, and pretends to be a consitituional scholar.

Did anybody else notice libby's other persona popping into the discussion?

To answer a couple of questions,  He does not actually have to be moving in order to be in control of the car. Just sitting in the drivers seat with the engine running is enough. What about just sitting there?  Finding drunks sleeping in a vehicle with the engine on and the transmission in neutral or park is common. (Too drunk to use the shifter or clutch) People I've found besides the above drunk. A car thief. A mugger waiting for a victim.  A lookout for a burglar in the local neighborhood. A stalker after a 12 yr old girl, complete with a knife, rope, duct tape and trash bags. A suicide, a sexual assault in progress, an Alzheimer patient that thought he was in El Paso, a handicapped female trapped in a broken down car, a guy going through his kiddie porn collection with his dick in hand. A guy in diabetic shock. A woman hiding from the husband that had just beaten her. Emotionally disturbed folks, the occasional overdose, drug use and prostitution.  Found them all just sitting in parking lots. Now, none of the bad guys just hopped up and volunteered their life story, it comes through questioning. Questioning that is permissible under the circumstances given.      

Me thinks that someone just identified themselves as the Village Idiot.

I should have been clearer, I guess. Norm_G said you ONLY have to ID yourself if you are driving. My points were in addition to driving, not exclusive.

We won't get into traffic check points and that stuff.

Generally the police need a reason to demand ID from somebody. If they feel they have the legal privilege to demand ID, you gotta ID yourself. If you decide to ID yourslelf with a name other than your own, that is a crime whether or not the police had reason to compel ID. Nor does it need to be a criminal charge, if you are going to recieve a "ticket" for something ie skateboarding on a sidewalk, failure to fasten seat belt as a passenger in a vehicle, and you decide you are going to have some personal angst.........how can we truly know who we are..... the nice officer will help you find yourself ant the local home for the legally challenged.

This guy sounds like he likes to push buttons, but is easily excitable.........bad combo.

AMEN Trick!! What a bunch of MORONS!! Seems no-one reads history. When is the last time the govt. told the truth about our involvement in a war?? These are the same clowns who believe the "gulf war" was justified, and bombing Serbia was a good idea! Ya wanna fight the people who caused 9/11?? Bomb Saudi Arabia and Pakistan! Close our borders! Deport ALL illegals! THEN clean out our own govt!! Idiots!!

So, aside from the personal attack, you completely agree with trickshot encouraging terrorist attacks on American soil?

Nope, but I do believe we are targeting the wrong people in the "war on terror". Ask your self who has a real motive here. Have you read the "Patriot Act"? Do you know where the $$ and training assistance came from? Are you aware the Taliban refused to allow an oil pipeline to be constructed in Afgahanistan early last year? Do you remember the "Tonkin Gulf Incident" that justified the introduction of combat troops in 'Nam? The violations of the neutrality act that caused the Germans to attack American shipping? The oil embargo on Japan? Military incursions in South America on behalf of United Fruit Co.? Some things never change. The responsibility lies with we the citizens. I also believe it is our responsibility to work to change it. I believe we are attacking the wrong people in our "War on Terror". (Catchy name isn't it?)

Jarhead, I also believe that the best way to support the troops, is to not send them on fools errands.....

Let's not play word games here. Do you or do you not agree with trickshot when he advocates terrorism on American soil? "Nope, but..." is not an answer, it's an equivocation.

One word: yes or no?

Read the first word of my reply jarhead. A game player I am not....

As I edited my message to read, just as you were responding to it: "Nope, but..." is not an answer.

You agree with trickshot in all respects [b]except[/b] for where he advocates more terrorist attacks on American soil, then?

Outstanding. That's an important distinction to me. Thank you.

Now who's playing games....?

You have to admit that you are no one to accuse anyone else of not answering a direct question directly. Your other points I may object to, but they don't offend and insult me to the point where no further civil contact with you is possible.

I replyed while you replyed to my reply to your reply..oh hell, I guess we both agree, outstanding! As far as I am concerned, those responsible for 9/11 should be squashed...ALL of them! Having said that, I also believe that we as American citizens need to take a look at the foreign policies being implemented in our name.
Back to the thread subject, the cops had every reason to request ID from the thief in the parking lot......

To quote Montgomery J. Burns, "Eeeeeeeeeeexcellent, Smithers."

I'm gone Jar, working on our new (old) house. You have a good one, God Bless, and....Semper Fi!!

To Zardos and other posters of like mentality,

As a former political moderator on two different BB's that have a firearm related background, I decided to quit both of the mod positions and not have to debate with those that would print something like the Zardoz post and came to AR15 to learn more about the ar rifle.  

For the most part I could care less about the topic itself and have no opinion one way or another, because I have no way to substantiate the content.

As far as defending "myself and my loved ones' I/they can do that ourselves, and don't need much help from the military and LEO's. I don't disrespect them whatsoever, but rather admire them but wouldn't want their jobs. (Been there done that)

IMO it is undoubtedly certain that in the future LEO's and probably the military is going to have to make some very hard decisions as to where their allegiances lie.

The scenario that I envision coming to fruition is the government declaring for lack of better words "war" on the citizenry.

If one looks at the situation in our republic, you see the many on the left dissatisfied and well as many on the right. The reasons are different but the dissatisfaction is growing.

Failure to comply with numerous rules and regulations by many is due to simply not knowing that they exist. Many on the left who are in favor of these numerous rules, feel that they don't apply to them.They have this sort of elitist aura they carry around on a daily basis. To site another venue of the left, groups like the Earth Liberation Front, destroy things blaming capitalism for all the ills of the Republic.

Others on the right would not obey these rules simply because they are unconstitutional. LEO's and the Military took an oath to uphold the constitution, yet many including a relative LEO of mine have very little understanding of what it entails. I think the fecal matter will hit the fan when the rules and regulations being so numerous are largely ignored for the many reasons  listed above, and the government cracks down. My question to the LEO's and Military, What will you do then, bearing in mind you took and oath to uphold the constitution? Will you wipe your arse with that great document as many congresscritters and other high government officials have, or get back to what is right and just? Remember that the founders enumerated these rights to be unalienable or "not of this world".

To sight an example of what is happening here was exemplified on a Recent Meet The Press show where Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanon found themselves agreeing on many topics of discussion that Tim Russert put forth. That to me is a warning sign of what really ails this republic.

Back to the post of Zardoz, Sir, you have shown your shallow mentality with your idea that some should leave the country because they don't agree with you and your so called hard work and life endangering position. Tell me why I need you in the first place? If you get out of my way, I can take care of myself. Secondly, Talk about bad attitudes, Look in the mirror and be honest with yourself as to what you have become. Your use of fuck and shit-hole don't bother me but surely are not impressive neither. Some here appear to be antis' that happen to own firerms.

Yep...and the award for biggest moron goes to:
trickshot!
>Liberty86 sits back down and grumbles something about how the nomination IS the award, really...<

Posted by "smoky:"OK, genius, where in my post did I even hint at the words "My hard work and life-endangering profession" or that someone should leave the country for not agreeing with me, specifically? And about my attitude? Why, yes, as a matter of fact I do have a bad attitude toward those who feel no reason to thank or respect those who provide them with their freedom. You don't need ME, but if you think you don't need the people in the US Military, in my opinion, you are fooling yourself. If my opinions make me a "shallow" person in your eyes, so be it. I'm sure I'll lose sleep tonight over this. As far as my use of such vulgar language-uh, sorry, but it wasn't meant to "impress" anybody. You have, though, impressed me, with your apparent lack of reading comprehension. And don't call me "sir." I was an NCO.

Zardoz, It appears that you agree with the standing army concept that is highly unconstitutional. Do you agree also with doing away with the 1st and 2nd amendments also?

This inability of yours to understand the constitution is precisely what I addressed in the posting I made. Has anyone invaded the US and tried to take over? What happened to the great idea of the citizen army or civil defense.
If you haven't once questioned the military and LE in this country, you are living in a different world than I. Why doesn't my country trust me with the same armaments that I used in the 70's?

I don't need the military to protect me as I can take care of myself and my family. Did so in many countries at different stages in my life. As one gets older it will all become apparent. And no just because I disagree with my government I still love the concept of what America once stood for. Wake up and smell the coffee.
Read Your Constitution--------Smoky

Well, yeah, I do agree with a standing Army, so on that we disagree. You might, however, be surprised to know that we actually agree on our distrust of the gov't. Governmental problems aside, this country is still the best thing around, and there is still hope that most of the problems can be fixed. Do away with any part of the bill of rights, and we wouldn't be able to have this little discussion, would we? You obviously don't know me, or what I think, as much as you profess to. Suffice it to say that we agree on some things, disagree on others.

Please show me where in the Constitution that it forbids a standing army.

Relax, Rik, the patronizing attitude is sort of amusing.

Before you go overseas to fight and die for "America" I suggest you go spend some time in Philadelphia. Go see the sickening, rotting decay that is America's dirty little secret. Then decide if the system you are fighting to sustain is worth it or not.


Posted by Trickshot


I've never been there, but I've seen the horror of west Texas and Washington D.C.! Three blocks from the Mall and the White House you've got the crack house!

Again, please point out where the Constitution forbids a standing army.

To answer your question about whether we have been invaded, the answer, of course, is no.  Gee, I wonder why.  Could it be our standing army combined with an armed citizenry, not the armed citizenry alone.  If you believe that any number of countries throughout our history would not have invaded if not for those 2 factors together, not seperately, then you are kidding yourself.  If you don't believe that the Germans or the Japanese or both would not have launched an invasion of the US during WWII without our military, or if the USSR would not have been here in a heart beat during the Cold War, you are living in a dream world.  In all these cases, the goal was world domination and we are part of the world.  The only reason there was no attempted invasion by any of these was that we sent our military overseas to squash them before they could even get close to the US.  

As far as not needing the military to protect, you've got to be kidding.  You said you alone could protect your family, you didn't even say with help from your fellow armed citizens.  I don't doubt your ability to defend yourself and your family against small bands of roving bad guys, but not against an invading army.  No one is that badass.  That would take all the armed citizenry grouped together and a standing army.

What countries that you did all this protecting in and what arnaments did you have in the '70s.  Would it be US issued military rifles and on US military bases guarded by , gasp, fellow members of the military?

Larry, Rik, and Zardoz. I am going to withdraw from this discussion. My apologies to you fellas for even getting into it in the first place.

Suffice it to say that I thought along the same lines as you fellas might at this time many years ago, and life experiences changed me and my thought process on this as time went along.

I've have run into the same type of discussion with others and it proved difficult for those people to understand my ideas as well. So lets just drop it. Sorry if I offended you-----Smoky

What offends me is that you're dropping out of the conversation without defending your position: you never said where in the Constitution it forbids a standing army.  It's cowardly to make a statement such as that then run out on the conversation without backing it up.