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Posted: 3/18/2002 7:42:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2002 7:47:20 PM EDT by NYPatriot]
The National Organization of Rocketry (NAR) and the Tripoli Rocketry Association (TRA) recently filed an injunction against the BATF. It seems the BATF regards model rocket motors above a certain size to be destructive devices under the National Firearms Act. Joint Statement on ATF Litigation, 3/2/2000 March 2, 2002 In mid-January 2002, we received multiple reports of increased demands made by ATF inspectors on National Organization of Rocketry(NAR) and Tripoli Rocket Association(TRA) members with Low Explosive User Permits. In particular, these inspectors demanded motor types whose propellant grains consisted of 62.5 gram and smaller units, generally referred to as "easy access", now be subject to the magazine and record keeping requirements of larger motors if the propellant are designed or intended to be combined and used in a rocket motor whose total propellant weight is greater than 62.5 grams. Our members received at least two instances of written notice of this completely unexpected change in regulation. After consultation with counsel, we also discovered that ATF had filed a motion for summary judgment against three out of four counts in our complaint. After further review by counsel, on Wednesday, February 27, 2002, the NAR and TRA filed a motion for a preliminary injunction against ATF. We asked that this illegal change in regulation be rescinded and that any further attempts at unwarranted and illegal regulation of the sport rocket hobby be stayed while our complaint was before the court. Our counsel has been unusually thorough and complete in the preparation of our motion, and we believe we have an extremely strong legal case to present to the court, particularly in light of ATF's action against our members in January. As we have further information on this situation, we will provide it at our websites. We appreciate your constant moral and financial support as we continue to work to secure an unregulated, safe sport rocket hobby. Mark Bundick, President Bruce Kelly, President National Association of Rocketry Tripoli Rocketry Association Nope... The BATF is [b]not[/b] power mad and out of control. They are just misunderstood. After all... its for the children, right??? If you care to make a donation to the NAR (almost typed "NRA"), click [url]www.nar.org/NARfrompres.html[/url]
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 8:05:25 PM EDT
Brothers in arms. We can only hope the BATF pisses off other groups as well. It only helps us. -elliott
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 8:13:51 PM EDT
How the hell does the BATF arbitrarily assume this falls under their jurisdiction? Doesn't somebody (Congress comes to mind) have to pass a law authorizing them to do this? Next thing ya know large sacks of flour will be declared destructive devices, and bakeries will be subject to ATF regulation. [rolleyes] I think federal law enforcement agencies have flipped out. They've all become "citizenophiles".
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 8:31:27 PM EDT
posted by marvl...
How the hell does the BATF arbitrarily assume this falls under their jurisdiction? Doesn't somebody (Congress comes to mind) have to pass a law authorizing them to do this?
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Marvl, How DARE you ask these kinds of questions! Now shut up, and go back to watching mind numbing sitcoms and eating junk food.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 8:33:32 PM EDT
BATF List of Dangerous Things To Ban: [s] Machine guns Automatic rifles/shotguns "Saturday Night Specials" "Assault Weapons" Large Capacity Magazines Firecrackers Model Rocket Engines[/s] Reloading Supplies Ammunition ALL Guns Small Propane Tanks Butane Lighters Kids Chemistry Sets Strike-Anywhere Matches Box Cutters Ginsu Knives Needle Nose Pliers Fingernail Clippers Radish Peelers Nose Hair Clippers Sharp Sticks Rocks Bits of String People Children Water Air [whacko]
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 8:38:13 PM EDT
What's really fun is to put flour in the payload area instead of the parachute.......makes a great white cloud. Gasoline is fun also, but that kind of danagerous[}:D] Sgtar15
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 8:38:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: BATF List of Dangerous Things To Ban: [s] Machine guns Automatic rifles/shotguns "Saturday Night Specials" "Assault Weapons" Large Capacity Magazines Firecrackers Model Rocket Engines[/s] Reloading Supplies Ammunition ALL Guns Small Propane Tanks Butane Lighters Kids Chemistry Sets Strike-Anywhere Matches Box Cutters Ginsu Knives Needle Nose Pliers Fingernail Clippers Radish Peelers Nose Hair Clippers Sharp Sticks Rocks Bits of String People Children Water Air [whacko]
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Yup, we're fu#ked!
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 8:38:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2002 8:41:48 PM EDT by Kaliburz]
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: BATF List of Dangerous Things To Ban: [s] Machine guns Automatic rifles/shotguns "Saturday Night Specials" "Assault Weapons" Large Capacity Magazines Firecrackers Model Rocket Engines[/s] Reloading Supplies Ammunition ALL Guns Small Propane Tanks Butane Lighters Kids Chemistry Sets Strike-Anywhere Matches Box Cutters Ginsu Knives Needle Nose Pliers Fingernail Clippers Radish Peelers Nose Hair Clippers Sharp Sticks Rocks Bits of String People Children Water Air [whacko]
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Ya forgot... Ammonium Nitrate Fertilizer (if I spelled it right), powdered form. Actually, I think that anything the 'govt' can call a 'dangerouse device' or 'a threat to our way of life' will be banned. Than means no acetyle tanks for gas welders. Anything that can be eventually used as a 'weopon' is their idea. Better add pitch fork and baseball bat to the list.... next you know 'information' will be banned, how to do this.... next martial arts......
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 8:39:02 PM EDT
Is this in a regulation, or some "opinion"?
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 9:21:53 PM EDT
BATF - Final proof that the world has gone mad... FFZ
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 9:29:53 PM EDT
Makes me all warm and fuzzy all over. These idiots believe they are right, that is the funniest part to me. You know a credit card can be fashioned into a weapon too, sorry soccer moms.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 9:51:19 PM EDT
Don't forget gasoline! We'll all be riding bikes or walking. Or the Segway if it's not raining.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 9:52:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By marvl: . . Next thing ya know large sacks of flour will be declared destructive devices, and bakeries will be subject to ATF regulation. . .
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OT: I have something close, but not exactly. My brother-in-law wants to expand the oven to his bakery, but the EPA has mandated that they put in hydrocarbon(HC) scrubbers, which is going to cost them tens of thousands of dollars to control the HC emmisions of rising dough. Of course they can't afford it.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 11:05:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 11:11:52 PM EDT
The Cub Scouts, 4H club and U.S. Space Camp are all breeding grounds of terror!
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 1:11:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By operatorerror: The [b]Cub Scouts[/b], 4H club and U.S. Space Camp are all breeding grounds of terror!
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Be thankful the fbi has already adopted a "Shoot First" policy toward these known terrorists. [:(!]
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 5:21:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By meshuggah: Is this in a regulation, or some "opinion"?
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Yes. Where the BATF is concerened, opinion [i]is[/i] regulation.
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 5:32:04 AM EDT
ALL YOUR MODEL ROCKETS ARE BELONG TO US.
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 5:32:04 AM EDT
Were it not for model rocketry, I would not be an engineer today. I'm sure this is not unique. Next time the NEA is complaining about the poor science and math skills, bring this up...we are dumbing society down to make it "safer". Chemistry is no longer an acceptable hobby due to the illicit drug trade. Now model rocketry is under assault and I bet radio controled ANYTHING will be next.
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 5:37:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By warlord:
Originally Posted By marvl: . . Next thing ya know large sacks of flour will be declared destructive devices, and bakeries will be subject to ATF regulation. . .
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OT: I have something close, but not exactly. My brother-in-law wants to expand the oven to his bakery, but the EPA has mandated that they put in hydrocarbon(HC) scrubbers, which is going to cost them tens of thousands of dollars to control the HC emmisions of rising dough. Of course they can't afford it.
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Remember this the next time someone says they support Greenpeace because they are in favor of recycling. [puke] Ban bread! For the Children!
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 5:38:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 9:20:28 AM EDT
Can anyone say THX1138
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 9:29:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 9:35:32 AM EDT
It was also an early movie By George Lucas. The Stormtrooper was a referance to it. Av.
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 9:53:59 AM EDT
guess we'd better stock up before it's too late.
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 10:12:24 AM EDT
In time, as the BATF oversee's more and more items on Macallan's list, its acronym will change to something like BATFRGHEMTUACKWPLGHTMKSAWQV Since this will no longer fit on the back of their cool black jackets, they will simply shorten their name to BAIOE for Bureau of Arrogant Idiots Overseeing Everything
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 2:14:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NYPatriot: In particular, these inspectors demanded motor types whose propellant grains consisted of 62.5 gram and smaller units, generally referred to as "easy access", now be subject to the magazine and record keeping requirements of larger motors if the propellant are designed or intended to be combined and used in a rocket motor whose total propellant weight is greater than 62.5 grams.
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Oh, by the way: Your .30 caliber rifles of over 2 rounds capacity are now "Destructive Devices." .30 caliber + .30 caliber = .60 caliber -- an NFA weapon!
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 4:05:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fuzzbean:
Originally Posted By NYPatriot: In particular, these inspectors demanded motor types whose propellant grains consisted of 62.5 gram and smaller units, generally referred to as "easy access", now be subject to the magazine and record keeping requirements of larger motors if the propellant are designed or intended to be combined and used in a rocket motor whose total propellant weight is greater than 62.5 grams.
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Oh, by the way: Your .30 caliber rifles of over 2 rounds capacity are now "Destructive Devices." .30 caliber + .30 caliber = .60 caliber -- an NFA weapon!
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What's even worse I load 220grains 5010 for the 50bmg. Guess, I'll be seeing the ATF at the door any minute now.
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 4:23:09 PM EDT
Yes. Stand idly by while history repeats itself. "He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance." "He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation: For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us: For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:" -The Declaration of Independence
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 4:32:54 PM EDT
Reason #:
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: Yes. Stand idly by while history repeats itself. "He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance."
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#10
"He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
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#13
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
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#14
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:"
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#15 Got all 27 of them right in front of me! [:)]
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 4:39:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: Yes. Stand idly by while history repeats itself. "He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance." "He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation: For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us: For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:" -The Declaration of Independence
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Oh, come now, Imbroglio. What the BATF does in D.C. will never affect us common, lawful gun owners. There is no need to draw parallels between our sheltered, urban, 2-car lives and the American Revolution. Extremist.
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 6:32:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2002 6:36:11 PM EDT by Hoplophile]
Originally Posted By eswanson:
Originally Posted By Benjamin0001: Can anyone say THX1138
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Wasn't he that stormtrooper in Star Wars who they lured into the Millenium Falcon? "THX1138, why aren't you at your post?"
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It was also Harrison Ford's license plate in American Graffitti and I think it was the movie listed on the marquee in Gremlins. It's nice to know that no matter how bad government gets we'll always have movie trivia to distract us.
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 6:39:15 PM EDT
That was TK421, why aren't you at your post?
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 6:40:06 PM EDT
Alcohol - Tobacco - and - Firearms Let's build a beer keg that shoots cigars! What do you think that those bastards in Washington would do with that?
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 7:03:43 PM EDT
Why am I not surprised.
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 7:49:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2002 7:50:34 PM EDT by Benjamin0001]
They had a story for this when I was little, it is called Chicken Little. ..... I know what there plan is? They are going to make the US look so pathetically week that our enemies won't even bother picking a fight because it would be like hurting the school pantywaste. Sure you can bloody his nose, but it would just kinda make you feel like a bully. And it wouldn't prove anything anywayz. Benjamin
Link Posted: 3/20/2002 2:55:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mr_Whiskerz: That was TK421, why aren't you at your post?
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Ah, yes.
Link Posted: 3/20/2002 3:43:40 PM EDT
This batf declaration must be the result of the numerous model rocket attacks on "the children" of our country. Really, it's a public safety issue.
Link Posted: 3/20/2002 4:01:10 PM EDT
THX138 was the plate number on the yellow Ford coupe, not the 55, IIRC. Waterdog
Link Posted: 3/20/2002 4:21:58 PM EDT
The defintion of a Destructive Device includes and Rocket with more than 1/4 Oz. or 6.875 Grams of propellant. I am not sure what the Grain conversion is. But, there is an exception for devices neither designed nor intended for use as a weapon, pyrotechnics, signaling, etc...which would easily encompass Model Rockets. So, is the ATF going to amnesty register all model rockets ? If so, then can we buy a bunch of esties, amnesty register them with no tax, no cleo signoff, and then after registering load 'em up with as black powder as we can stuff them with and make them into something more powerfull. Hmm, I wonder how many 12 y/o kids will amnesty register their model rockets. I wonder how many 12 y/o kids the ATF will throw in federal prison for unregistered DDs ?
Link Posted: 3/20/2002 4:55:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stubbs:
Originally Posted By Mr_Whiskerz: That was TK421, why aren't you at your post?
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Ah, yes.
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Actually, they're both right! In the movie it's TK421, but in the book it's THX1138. Now what was this thread originally about?
Link Posted: 3/20/2002 5:41:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/20/2002 5:55:09 PM EDT
Oh Damn! BATF are going to confiscate my grandson!
Link Posted: 3/20/2002 6:12:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: BATF List of Dangerous Things To Ban: [s] Machine guns Automatic rifles/shotguns "Saturday Night Specials" "Assault Weapons" Large Capacity Magazines Firecrackers Model Rocket Engines[/s] Reloading Supplies Ammunition ALL Guns Small Propane Tanks Butane Lighters Kids Chemistry Sets Strike-Anywhere Matches Box Cutters Ginsu Knives Needle Nose Pliers Fingernail Clippers Radish Peelers Nose Hair Clippers Sharp Sticks Rocks Bits of String People Children Water Air [whacko]
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don't laugh, its getting hard for me to find strike anywhere matches around here..
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