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Posted: 3/15/2002 4:50:22 AM EDT
[b]The coverup and intimidation are in action![/b] [url]http://www.sunspot.net/news/local/bal-md.shoot15mar15.story[/url] Agents said to oppose inquiry Investigator says he was discouraged from probing FBI shooting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Gail Gibson Sun Staff Originally published March 15, 2002 Two senior agents from the FBI's Baltimore office told a private detective yesterday that the mistaken shooting of an unarmed Pasadena man likely would be ruled a "clean shoot," and discouraged him from looking into the case further, the investigator said in an interview. Dudley F.B. "Butch" Hodgson, a former FBI agent who has been retained by the shooting victim's lawyers, said he was told by one of the agents: "There's no middle ground in this thing. You're either with us or against us." A top FBI official said late yesterday that the investigation into the shooting March 1 of Joseph C. Schultz is far from complete and that any remarks made by the agents to Hodgson "clearly reflect their own personal opinions" - not the FBI's official position. "The official agency position is we would not do anything to discourage the people aggrieved here from pursuing every option open to them," said Assistant Director John E. Collingwood, a spokesman with FBI headquarters in Washington. Hodgson was hired Monday by attorneys representing Schultz, who was shot in the face after FBI agents searching for a bank robber two weeks ago mistakenly pulled over the car Schultz's girlfriend was driving. Schultz, whose right jaw was shattered by a bullet from an agent's M-4 rifle, was released from the hospital this week but faces a series of reconstructive surgeries. FBI officials have apologized for the shooting and promised a full investigation into what was an apparent case of mistaken identity. Investigators from FBI headquarters are conducting one review, which will be forwarded to the Justice Department's civil rights division. Anne Arundel County police are conducting a separate probe, to be reviewed by local prosecutors. Hodgson began his own investigation this week for attorneys Arnold M. Weiner and Robert J. Welchek, who represent Schultz. After three days on the case, Hodgson said, he received two calls early yesterday from longtime agents in the Baltimore office, calls that he described as attempts to get him to leave the case. -cont- [img]http://mywebpages.comcast.net/paulbritton/pics/FBI%20victim.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 4:50:52 AM EDT
-cont- "They say the office opinion on this case is, 'It's a good shooting,'" Hodgson told The Sun yesterday. "I said, 'Fine. If that's the case, the facts are going to come out and show that.'" But Hodgson, who worked undercover and violent crime cases during his two decades in the Baltimore FBI office, said he also told his former colleagues: "I don't understand how the office can think it's a good shoot, because everything I've seen indicates that it's not." Hodgson said he received calls from Sam Wichner, firearms instructor for the Baltimore office, and from Jim Ellis, a supervisor in the Calverton office, which reports to the Baltimore field office. Wichner and Ellis did not return phone calls seeking comment. Their supervisor, Lynne A. Hunt, special agent in charge of the Baltimore office, was out of town and not available for comment. Collingwood, at FBI headquarters, stressed that the shooting investigation intentionally excluded agents assigned to the Baltimore office in order to be fully "independent of anyone who would have any emotional or personal interest in the outcome in the case." At the local level, Anne Arundel County Police Chief P. Thomas Shanahan also has promised an independent review, free of pressure from federal authorities. He said he also has met with Hunt and investigators from Washington who promised to fully cooperate with the local police probe. In a recent interview, Shanahan said he told the police captain on duty March 1: "Don't worry about the FBI. Stay focused on your obligation to Anne Arundel County and you won't go wrong.'" Weiner and Welchek, prominent Lutherville attorneys accustomed to high-profile cases, said yesterday that the individual calls to Hodgson raise concerns about the integrity of the FBI investigation - a question that Collingwood said would be reviewed. "Instead of looking inward at their own deficiencies that led to this awful thing to happen, they're turning outward to try to intimidate people," Weiner said. Hodgson said that Wichner warned him that he would "end up looking pretty silly" once the shooting was ruled justified. In the call from Ellis, Hodgson said, he was told that he would be blocked from social interaction with his former FBI colleagues and friends if he worked on this case. Hodgson said it was Ellis who warned, "There's no middle ground on this thing. You're either with us or against us." Hodgson said he was angered by the calls, but undeterred. "We're going to see this thing through," he said. "And the chips are going to fall where they may." Sun staff writer Laura Barnhardt contributed to this article. Copyright © 2002, The Baltimore Sun
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 5:00:28 AM EDT
no matter how we feel about law enforcement in general, it mystifies me that any honest, sane person could conclude that shooting an innocent unarmed person is a "clean shoot". i think this particular officer should be seriously considering a new career, one that doesnt involve firearms or the law.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 5:02:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2002 6:10:42 AM EDT by Jarhead_22]
Feature that! The FBI are trying to obstruct the investigation into this case, where one round was fired and one guy got hurt, but will survive. Thank God they didn't try this with Ruby Ridge or Waco, huh? I mean, a bunch of people died in a fusillade of gunshots in both places, so it's a good thing the investigations into those shootings were clean and above-board, right? Right? Right?
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 5:03:39 AM EDT
Hodgson said that Wichner warned him that he would "end up looking pretty silly" once the shooting was ruled justified. In the call from Ellis, Hodgson said, he was told that he would be blocked from social interaction with his former FBI colleagues and friends if he worked on this case. Hodgson said it was Ellis who warned, "There's no middle ground on this thing. You're either with us or against us." Hodgson said he was angered by the calls, but undeterred. "We're going to see this thing through," he said. "And the chips are going to fall where they may."
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Whats not to like about these people? Nothing in the world like "button down" professionals! Only one solution to a problem sure to grow worse...[IMG]http://www.theunholytrinity.org/cracks_smileys/contrib/ed/SniperHeadShot2.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://216.40.198.77/mysmilies/s/contrib/aahmed/sad.gif[/IMG]
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 5:17:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 5:53:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:01:49 AM EDT
Our FBI shoots innocent people for no reason, and the Saudi religious police burn innocent women to death. Are these people on the same bad drugs?
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:02:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ColonelKlink: the fbi had better pay his medical bills.
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It appears that the FBI ISN'T paying the bills. Apparantly they think it would be an admission of guilt. [b]Folks - this could be ANYONE of us. ANYONE of our family or friends. [/b] This kid was just riding in the wrong car at the wrong place. One agent orders him to freeze, the other orders him out of the car. When he goes to unbuckle the seat belt, they shoot him.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:10:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ColonelKlink: the fbi had better pay his medical bills.
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That's all I'd ask for. After all it was a "clean shoot." [BD] [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:11:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By marvl: Our FBI shoots innocent people for no reason, and the Saudi religious police burn innocent women to death. Are these people on the same bad drugs?
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yes. it's called "power", or "no accountablility" and it's highly addictive.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:19:28 AM EDT
A "clean shoot", yeah right... These people need the ability to enforce the law but what we have here is no ACCOUNTABILITY! No accountability leads to no CREDIBILITY. I hope John Ashcroft gets involved in this one. He's an honorable man. Something needs to be done about these abuses. It's long overdue.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:27:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:35:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ColonelKlink: the fbi had better pay his medical bills.
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Forget the medical bills, this guy and his girlfriend just retired on the FBI's dollar. She'll collect for emotional distress, he'll collect for any number of legal grounds. Medical bill?!!? HA!
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:39:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: J. Edgar Hoover must be spinning in his grave over what the FBI has become. Unprofessional, very unprofessional.
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Nah, this is an improvement over the Hoover years. [tfhat]Besides, who says Hoover is dead...[/tfhat]
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:40:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Minman72: Forget the medical bills, this guy and his girlfriend just retired on the FBI's dollar. She'll collect for emotional distress, he'll collect for any number of legal grounds. Medical bill?!!? HA!
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[b]NO, THEY JUST RETIRED ON MY DOLLAR. AND YOUR DOLLAR This won't cost the FBI money, this will cost US[/b]
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:49:20 AM EDT
I have sorta' been following this...but what I don't understand.... Was this an accidental discharge? or Did the Officer think he had some type of weapon? Basically what justification is the FBI using that it was a "good shoot"...they have to have some type of shoot/don't shoot policy. I know people will say...it's the FBI...they can do anything and get away with it...but seriously...what is the justification. I am not saying the FBI is right. I just want to know the justification they are using. thanks medcop
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:53:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2002 6:56:45 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By medcop: Was this an accidental discharge? or Did the Officer think he had some type of weapon?
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There are NO accidental discharges, only negligent discharges. One agent was screaming "freeze". The other agent was yelling "get out of the car". The kid obeyed the agent yelling "get out of the car" and when he reached for his seatbelt, agent #1 thought he made a "threatening move" and blasted him. You tell me - ND or justified shoot? Bear in mind that they had the wrong car, wrong person, they knew the bankrobber wasn't armed (he had used toy guns) and wasn't dangerous. The kid was following orders and was shot for it. The girl driving the car has stated that he was left laying on the ground bleeding for 45 minutes to an hour while they checked his ID, and only called the paramedics AFTER they confirmed it was the wrong man. The FBI denys this, yet they won't even release the time of the shooting, so we can't check it against the paramedic response time. Can you say "cover up"?
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:56:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By medcop: Was this an accidental discharge? or Did the Officer think he had some type of weapon? Basically what justification is the FBI using that it was a "good shoot"
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i have difficulty saying "Accidental Discharge" and "clean shoot" in the same sentence without seeing the word [b]NOT[/b] in there somewhere..
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:58:48 AM EDT
Yes, so what would have happened if a bunch of Fibbies, NOT in police uniform, approaced a car with guns, and the civilian in the car, believing he was being hijacked, or worse, decided to defend his life, and shot one of the un-uniformed FBI guys. Would it have still been a clean shoot? Or would the poor civilian now be facing attempted murder of a federal agent charges? Well, it can't go both ways, or can it? Seriously, the FBI is unable to investigate itself. These guys should face whatever state charges there are, and they should be treated like anyone else. A badge is not a licence to kill.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 7:10:08 AM EDT
Yeah, like that poor bastard waiting for his murder trial, after killing one of the cops during a no knock raid.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 7:27:48 AM EDT
negligent discharges negligent discharges negligent discharges negligent discharges negligent discharges negligent discharges negligent discharges negligent discharges negligent discharges negligent discharges YES...negligent discharges....I really meant to say this. I have been trying to avoid saying accidental discharge, but it is hard to get out of the habit. I know there is no such thing as an accidental discharge. What really pisses me off is one Officer yelling "get out of the car" and the other yelling "freeze" or whatever they said. Only ONE(1) officer should be giving commands...or they should all be giving the same commands, saying the same thing! medcop
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 7:31:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2002 7:35:03 AM EDT by saleen]
Originally posted by fight4yourrights:
This kid was just riding in the wrong car at the wrong place. One agent orders him to freeze, the other orders him out of the car. When he goes to unbuckle the seat belt, they shoot him.
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Yeah, I guess seatbelts DO save lives [rolleyes] Honestly, I want to know what they define as a "clean shoot". If they are descibing a shooting that was free of criminal intent on behalf of the agent, I'll buy it. Hell, I think we all have pretty much come to the conclusion that this was a mistake on the agent's part. I mean, it HAS to be a mistake right? After all, this guy wasn't a white woman holding a child. If, on the other hand, they mean this was good all the way around, and the same agent would do it again if given the chance, I'd say BULLSHIT! I have a feeling that the local investigation is going to have a grossly different view of this shooting than the FBI does. I just hope that little agency is ready for the wrath that will befall them in the wake of their investigation. As to the intimidation of the PI investigating for the victim, can any of us say we are surprised? I would have been more surprised by an outright admission of responsibility and a open and fair investigation. If I was former agent Hogdson, I wouldn't want to associate with my former collegues anymore. I'd be too embarrased to. Someone said that J. Edgar is rolling in his grave over what has become of his beloved FBI. Maybe yes and maybe no. These intimidation tactics have their root during his reign. Thought to leave you with: If he is rolling in his grave, he's rolling in a dress! [:O] Saleen
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 7:41:22 AM EDT
What really pisses me off is one Officer yelling "get out of the car" and the other yelling "freeze" or whatever they said. Only ONE(1) officer should be giving commands...or they should all be giving the same commands, saying the same thing!
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Perhaps one agent was telling the driver to freeze and the other agent was telling Schultz to get out of the car.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 7:51:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 7:52:56 AM EDT
It was strongly suggested to the PI hired by the lawyers that he "leave the case"? Can you say "obstruction of justice"? Those people are seemingly above the law, and there's not a damn thing John Q. Citizen can do about it.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 8:02:15 AM EDT
The shooter's photograph should be published... no more dark corners for them to hide in should be the rule! No more anonymity...
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 8:40:30 AM EDT
Originally posted by Marvl:
It was strongly suggested to the PI hired by the lawyers that he "leave the case"? Can you say "obstruction of justice"? Those people are seemingly above the law, and there's not a damn thing John Q. Citizen can do about it.
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Not exactly. You see, the obstruction of justice only applies if they use those tactics to influence a criminal investigation by a law enforcement agency. The PI is working towards a civil trial so the statute does not apply. Its unprofessional as hell, but not illegal. It also implies that they are trying to hide something. Big surprise! Saleen
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 9:12:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2002 9:15:45 AM EDT by Noname]
[url]http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-md.ar.shoot09mar09.story[/url] FBI identifies agent in shooting Man was wounded by mistake during search for robber -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Gail Gibson, Michael James and Laura Barnhardt Sun Staff Originally published March 9, 2002 The FBI disclosed yesterday the identity of the agent who mistakenly shot an unarmed Pasadena man last week, describing the agent as a former U.S. Marine Corps captain and decorated Persian Gulf war veteran who has worked for the past four years on a highly trained FBI SWAT team. Special Agent Christopher Braga, 35, joined the bureau five years ago, after seven years with the Marines. In the military, he was a firearms instructor and was a rifle platoon commander during Operation Desert Storm in the early 1990s. more at link...
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 9:30:32 AM EDT
From the article:
When Braga returns to duty, he is expected to be placed on assignments unlikely to involve armed confrontation, FBI officials have said.
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They're already sure he's going to be cleared and returned to duty. Why even bother with an expensive and inconvenient investigation of the facts. What a damned disgrace.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 10:13:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By lurker: no matter how we feel about law enforcement in general, it mystifies me that any honest, sane person could conclude that shooting an innocent unarmed person is a "clean shoot". i think this particular officer should be seriously considering a new career, one that doesnt involve firearms or the law.
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In the old days of the FBI, when standards and morale were higher, this agent would have had the decency to admit his own misdeed by eating a bullet. Say what you want about J Edna Hoover and his cocktail dresses, CONINTELPRO, etc., but Hoover would have never stood for this. Once the hallmark of integrity, the G-man has become little better than a JBT nowadays. What did this guy do before his current assignment? Fly a desk, maybe? I'm disgusted..."clean shoot", my ass! ............... "At Waco, was there really an urgency to get those people out of the compound at that particular time? Was the press going to make it look heroic for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms? At Ruby Ridge, there was one guy in a cabin at the top of the mountain. Was it necessary for federal agents to go up there and shoot a 14-year-old in the back and shoot a woman with a child in her arms? What kind of mentality does that?" - --CLINT EASTWOOD, Parade Magazine, January 12, 1997
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 10:51:37 AM EDT
Well folks, it ain't just bad guys and gun owners that need to fear the government. Here we have an Eagle scout, riding in a car on a lonely road. His only crime - - nothing. Just the wrong color car in the wrong area. This could be your son, your brother, your wife, you. Think about it.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 11:26:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Originally Posted By Minman72: Forget the medical bills, this guy and his girlfriend just retired on the FBI's dollar. She'll collect for emotional distress, he'll collect for any number of legal grounds. Medical bill?!!? HA!
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[b]NO, THEY JUST RETIRED ON MY DOLLAR. AND YOUR DOLLAR This won't cost the FBI money, this will cost US[/b]
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Good Point! Now the FBI will probably get more money next year, under the guise that it is for "training" so this type of incident won't happen again. I'm almost inclined to believe that Keanu Reeves character from Point Break makes a better FBI agent than most of the thugs they hire these days.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 11:32:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By lurker: i think this particular officer should be seriously considering a new career, one that doesnt involve firearms or the law.
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I think he should be considering spending a good portion of the rest of his life in a small cell.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 11:38:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Noname: In the military, he was a firearms instructor and was a rifle platoon commander during Operation Desert Storm in the early 1990s.
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Makes you wonder what his shoot/no shoot scenarios are like in training. In the few police stops I've seen with multiple people in a vehicle, one officer always seem to be able to address them folks in the suspect vehicle individually the whole time. I suppose the FBI probably has some better way that we don't get to know about though.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 11:42:13 AM EDT
Ah, the state of America today...
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 11:44:49 AM EDT
You LEO bashers don't know the whole story! You don't know what it's like to be a cop! You civilians aren't qualified to comment on this outstanding agent's actions!
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 11:47:58 AM EDT
If those agents, or any others, are trying to obstruct the investigation, they're scum and need to have the book thrown at them as surely as if they were two drug dealers. However, many people here keep saying "the FBI" did this - that's incorrect. In this case, these guys were acting of their own accord, not under orders. This isn't a Ruby Ridge or a Waco, so don't try to make it one! This sort of thing happens with local law enforcement much more frequently, yet (most) people on AR15.com don't go ranting about "the police" conspiring to kill everyone. Use a little common sense. The FBI is like any other law enforcement agency: mostly good people but unfortunately a few really bad ones. The system certainly has some massive problems, but almost all of them come from the top levels of our bureaucracy - the people making the stupid laws, not the people who have to enforce them regardless. These two men, if their behavior is being reported accurately, are nothing more than criminals who happen to be FBI agents. But please, don't insult the honest folks who are agents by equating them with these scum.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 11:49:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: i'm waiting on some of our vocal leo's to start justifying this. Come on guys this crap is why leos get bashed. mike
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I would like to hear from them too.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 11:52:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By maelcum: However, many people here keep saying "the FBI" did this - that's incorrect. In this case, these guys were acting of their own accord, not under orders.
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I don't agree. If the clerk at Walmart follows you out into the parking lot and tells you to go 'F yourself, wanna see how long he keeps his job? This guys represent the FBI. They used the Color of Authority to try and intimidate the private investigator.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 11:54:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: You LEO bashers don't know the whole story! You don't know what it's like to be a cop! You civilians aren't qualified to comment on this outstanding agent's actions!
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That's right! That's why we deserve to be shot in the face and left laying in the street for hour like dogs. Citizens should quake in their boots! Fear the State! Resistance is futile.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 11:56:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: [b]Folks - this could be ANYONE of us. ANYONE of our family or friends. [/b]
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Except if it had been one of us and there had been a gun in the car, don't you think that might have found its way into news articles?
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 11:57:56 AM EDT
If it really was a "good shoot", I'd like to see this cockroach climb out from under his rock, hold a press conference and explain why he can sleep at night. He should visit this kid and his family in the hospital and look him in the eyes and explain to him why it was a "good shoot" and why he was justified. This coward is hiding behind his agency, gag orders, and obscuring of facts. Let the shooter stand up like a man and proclaim [B]"I am confident this was a good shoot. I did nothing wrong."[/b]
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 11:58:45 AM EDT
This kid was just riding in the wrong car at the wrong place.
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Since when was riding in your own car on a public road wrong?
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 2:18:06 PM EDT
Fear the gov't. that shoots unarmed civilians and proclaims it was [b][i]"GOOD!"[/i][/b] Fvcking insane, isn't it?
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 2:43:18 PM EDT
What do you mean it wasnt a clean shoot? It was the innocent kids fault for driving a car that looked like one used in a robery. I swear these people litteraly get away with murder.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 2:58:59 PM EDT
Few things in this world get my fvcking gizzard in a fvcking blizzard than [b]FVCKING ABUSE OF FVCKING POWER![/b] And they fvcking wonder why alot of us fvcking distrust them.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 3:11:55 PM EDT
You LEO bashers don't know the whole story! You don't know what it's like to be a cop! You civilians aren't qualified to comment on this outstanding agent's actions!
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Well, as they say, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. The fact that it's a tough and dangerous job is no excuse.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 3:17:11 PM EDT
"We're confident when all the facts come out that [they'll show] he acted in accordance with training and FBI policy regarding the use of force," said White, who declined to elaborate on the case
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Hmmm. That statement scares me!
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 3:21:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tpuls:
"We're confident when all the facts come out that [they'll show] he acted in accordance with training and FBI policy regarding the use of force," said White, who declined to elaborate on the case
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Hmmm. That statement scares me!
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If he did act in accordance with "training" and "policy" then [b][i]EVERY INNOCENT, UNARMED CIVILIAN IS FAIR FVCKING GAME TO THEM.[/b][/i] We [i]better[/i] be scared.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 3:40:19 PM EDT
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