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Posted: 3/13/2002 1:24:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2002 1:32:51 PM EDT by garandman]
Our Conservative postions are well-established and logically sound in most areas. Take racial (black) quotas / subsidies. When it comes to giving gov't handouts to people SIMPLY due to their skin color, we say.... 1. Giving them money creates a new form of slavery - financial dependence on gov't. 2. That Jesse Jackson is pimping his ethnic kin simply to pad his own pocket and incrase his own power. 3. That hiring quotas / special treatment of blacks DECREASES their self-reliance and dignity. 4. That taking $$$ from taxpayers to fund social engineering projects for select ethniciies is Marxism. 5. That despite the fact that a few people of color WILL be chewed up by "life" that we should hold to our Conservative principles of self-reliance, personal responsibility, and the fundamental dignity of providing for your own needs. Soooo..... why do we throw all these principles out when it comes to funding the present gov't in Israel???? Why do we.... 1. GIVE Israel money, creating a financial slavery in them to the USA??? 2. Beleive the present Israeli politicians are NOT just like Jesse Jackson, pimping Isaeli citizens for their own political gain??? 3. Give Israel (or any other nation, for that matter) special treatment, DECREASING their self-reliance???? 4. Take funds from US taxpayers to fund our little Israeli social engineering projects, just like Marxism tells us to do??? 5. Abandon our Conservative principles of self-reliance, personal responsibility, and the fundamental dignity of providing for your own needs on the rationale that a few Israelis will be "chewed up by life?" In essence, we deny one ethnicity (our OWN black citizens) gov't handouts and Marxist quotas / special treatment just so that we can give gov't handouts and employ Marxist special treatment to another ethnicity (Israel.) (aka creating class struggle) Are we NOT racists??? Do we not just enflame the Louis Farrakhans of the world??? It is hypocritical IMO. (flame suit donned) (sarcasm)let me deal with something first - YES, I'm a Nazi / antiSemitic / pro Terrorist a$$hole. OK - NOW can we have a debate of the issues I've raised????(/sarcasm)
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 1:57:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2002 6:26:01 AM EDT by Paul]
Maybe if whites start killing blacks in this country the way the ARABS are killing jews in Israel it would be ok to give them a hand. [removed racial slur - Paul]
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 2:18:23 PM EDT
I don't see it as hypocrisy at all because it's not paying Israel to SIT ON THEIR ASS & DO NOTHING like welfare does. We have to pay the Israeli govt versus their individual citizens as there's no way we could do that nor should we even attempt to do so. Israel stands by the US, many times they're our only allies, especially in the Middle East. Finally, I don't see them as being anywhere as two-faced as Jesse "who's your daddy?" Jackson.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 2:23:30 PM EDT
Gee, [b]garandman[/b], that stick must really be causing you a lot of pain! Eric The(Ouch!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 2:36:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 5:04:37 PM EDT
I will support Israel as soon as they support my 2nd Amendment rights.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 5:22:49 PM EDT
I think that we are getting our money's worth. Isreal keeps the Christian-hating, West-hating Muslims busy, and we get to keep our hands clean. If it weren't for Isreal, we would have had to kick the whole moslem world's ass by now.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 5:48:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2002 5:54:58 PM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: I will support Israel as soon as they support my 2nd Amendment rights.
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Persona, First, I'm sick and tired of hyphenated Americans. Maybe just maybe a first generation immigrant who has reached the status of "Naturalized Citizen" should be referred to as "American of ____________ancestry". After that we're all just citizens of the United States of America. Or so one would think. I'm equally tired of American Jews who are two ounce doves here in the U.S., (including vehemently anti-gun) but turn into 120 pound hawks and carry an American tax payer purchased F-16 under one arm and a TOW missile under the other upon entry into Israel. (And are hawks about anything pertaining to Israel.) I'm tired of dual citizenship citizens. I'm tired of Americans of Jewish origin being able to serve in a foreign army and retain US citizenship. Certainly someone is waiting with the anti-Semitic flames. Not true but lightem up anyway ! (And I want to be referred to as an American of Danish, Irish, English, French and Creek Indian ancestry !)
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 5:58:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BobCole: We have to pay the Israeli govt versus their individual citizens .......
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Why do we 'HAVE' to pay anyone ?
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 7:27:36 PM EDT
Personally my solution to the Middle East problem is to give every Israeli US citizenship and tell them we are cutting their country off from our aid in 10 years. They would emigrate in mass to the US, and the Araba would be battling each other in eleven years. Garandman, we do give almost as much to the Egyptians, your Southern President Jimmy Carter set that up.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 4:15:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: Garandman, you are intelligent enough to figure out the blatant differences here. Ponder the idea of comparing apples to oranges.
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Not apples and oranges at all. Either we, as conservatives believe people are OWED gov't aid due to lifes unfortunate circumstances, or we don't. Either we believe in teh Marxist principles of social engineering, or we don't. Either we beleive in robbing US taxpayers of their wealth and re-distributing that wealth, or we don't. Apparently, in the case of the black ethnicity (our OWN CITIZENS) we don't beleive in Marxism, redistribution of the wealth, and the gov't nanny state.. Apparently, for the Israeli ethnicity (foreign nationals) we beleive in Marxism, redistribution of teh wealth. I figgered to get Mr. Lenin's response above. Its what I refer to as situational ethics. What we beleive CHANGES due to the situation.
On another vein, are you obsessed with this topic? It sure seems like it. I am not attacking you, just wondering
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Sure, I prolly am. Obsessed with what are IMO hypocritical political stances. With Marxism infiltrating our culture. With redistribution of the wealth. With what I'll call financial racism. Denying one race the gov't aid that is FREELY and GLADLY given to another race. ESPECIALLY when the race being discriminated against is OUR OWN CITIZENS. Now OBVIOUSLY I'm NOT supporting welfare for black citizens. I just find the Conservative position on Israel to be IMMENSELY hypocritical in this area. NOTHING destroys your credibility like hypocrisy. Call me obsessed if you want. Lots of people have been labeled "obsessed" by those uncomfortable with new ideas. I'm not saying I'm right - I'm just throwing the proposition out there.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 4:22:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: Garandman, you are intelligent enough to figure out the blatant differences here. Ponder the idea of comparing apples to oranges.
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Not apples and oranges at all. Either we, as conservatives believe people are OWED gov't aid due to lifes unfortunate circumstances, or we don't. Either we believe in teh Marxist principles of social engineering, or we don't. Either we beleive in robbing US taxpayers of their wealth and re-distributing that wealth, or we don't. Apparently, in the case of the black ethnicity (our OWN CITIZENS) we don't beleive in Marxism, redistribution of the wealth, and the gov't nanny state.. Apparently, for the Israeli ethnicity (foreign nationals) we beleive in Marxism, redistribution of teh wealth. I figgered to get Mr. Lenin's response above. Its what I refer to as situational ethics. What we beleive CHANGES due to the situation.
On another vein, are you obsessed with this topic? It sure seems like it. I am not attacking you, just wondering
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Sure, I prolly am. Obsessed with what are IMO hypocritical political stances. With Marxism infiltrating our culture. With redistribution of the wealth. With what I'll call financial racism. Denying one race the gov't aid that is FREELY and GLADLY given to another race. ESPECIALLY when the race being discriminated against is OUR OWN CITIZENS. Now OBVIOUSLY I'm NOT supporting welfare for black citizens. I just find the Conservative position on Israel to be IMMENSELY hypocritical in this area. NOTHING destroys your credibility like hypocrisy. Call me obsessed if you want. Lots of people have been labeled "obsessed" by those uncomfortable with new ideas. I'm not saying I'm right - I'm just throwing the proposition out there.
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You are truly blinded by your own prejudices.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 4:27:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Our Conservative postions are well-established and logically sound in most areas. Soooo..... why do we throw all these principles out when it comes to funding the present gov't in Israel???? Why do we.... 5. Abandon our Conservative principles of self-reliance, personal responsibility, and the fundamental dignity of providing for your own needs on the rationale that a few Israelis will be "chewed up by life?" It is hypocritical IMO.
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Taxation is theft, giving that stolen money to others is socialism. If you want to be logically consistent, you fetch up against libertarianism. So why stop? Keep going.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 4:28:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SS109: Personally my solution to the Middle East problem is to give every Israeli US citizenship and tell them we are cutting their country off from our aid in 10 years. They would emigrate in mass to the US, and the Araba would be battling each other in eleven years.
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While I haven't thought your proposal all the way thru, I like it on certain levels. At least its a new idea. What we have been doing for the last 30 years ain't working. What we've been doing for the last 30 years will GUARANTEE the endless continuation of US taxpayers funding Middle East violence. (Usually, conservative are AGAINST endless gov't involvment and taxation. Apparently that flies out the window when it comes to israel.)
Garandman, we do give almost as much to the Egyptians,
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Which is why I said above "3. Give Israel (or any other nation, for that matter) special treatment, DECREASING their self-reliance????" We DO give a whole bunch of other nations their "whore fees" to do what the US wants them to do. I'm for taking a REAL HARD look at those $$$ too.
...your Southern President Jimmy Carter set that up.
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Yo, hey, don't blame me for Jimmy Clueless. I was 9 years old, AND a Yankee at the time. I think my parents will still writing George Wallace's name in the ballot for that election. [:D] Jimmy DID give us Billy Carter - the human laughing stock. So, we'll call it even on Jimmy Carter.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 4:39:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tinker: Taxation is theft, giving that stolen money to others is socialism. If you want to be logically consistent, you fetch up against libertarianism. So why stop? Keep going.
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Not all taxation is theft. SOMEONE has to pay for national defense, transportation infrastructure, and other Constitutionally mandated roles of gov't. But you are right - giving stolen $$$ to other IS socialism, and I DO want to be logically consistent. I think there's ALOT to like in the Libertarians position with regard to taxation.
originally by NormG: You are truly blinded by your own prejudices.
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Then enlighten me. Argue the points, don't just smear the point-maker. Everyone has prejudices. I just beleive my prejudices are equitably applied - NO welfare for ANY ethnicity. Others seem to beleive welfare is OK for certain ethnicities, but not other ethnicities. What kind of prejudice do THOSE people have??Are they TOO as blinded as I am, in your opinion???? Again, argue the points. DON'T smear the point-maker. But hey - at least you said what you said WITHOUT an expletive. Kudos!!!! [}:D]
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 4:49:38 AM EDT
Post from 5subslr5 -
I'm tired of Americans of Jewish origin being able to serve in a foreign army and retain US citizenship.
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Well, subsailor, I was just cruising through this thread when I noticed your statement above. Just to be intellectually consistent on this point, would you, or did you, feel just as strongly about Americans serving under a foreign flag in these instances: American 'volunteers' in the Texas Revolution of 1836? They fought under the Mexican Flag of 1824! American pilots in the Lafayette Escadrille in WWI? They fought under the French Tricolor! American pilots in American Volunteer Group in mainland China (also known as the 'Flying Tigers') right before WWII? They fought under the Chinese Nationalist Flag! American pilots in the Royal Air Force, right before WWII, as well? They fought under the Union Jack! Would you have required [u]these[/u] Americans to give up their American citizenship first? So tell me, were these Americans any less of an American because they fought under a foreign flag! Eric The(HehHehHeh!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 4:55:27 AM EDT
We have to support Israel. Charles Schumer says so.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 5:11:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from 5subslr5 -
I'm tired of Americans of Jewish origin being able to serve in a foreign army and retain US citizenship.
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Well, subsailor, I was just cruising through this thread when I noticed your statement above. Just to be intellectually consistent on this point, would you, or did you, feel just as strongly about Americans serving under a foreign flag in these instances: American 'volunteers' in the Texas Revolution of 1836? They fought under the Mexican Flag of 1824! American pilots in the Lafayette Escadrille in WWI? They fought under the French Tricolor! American pilots in American Volunteer Group in mainland China (also known as the 'Flying Tigers') right before WWII? They fought under the Chinese Nationalist Flag! American pilots in the Royal Air Force, right before WWII, as well? They fought under the Union Jack! Would you have required [u]these[/u] Americans to give up their American citizenship first? So tell me, were these Americans any less of an American because they fought under a foreign flag! Eric The(HehHehHeh!)Hun[>]:)]
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Eric, what really bothers me is the divided loyalty. I know of no other Army - present tense - where Americans are allowed dual citizenship and are allowed to serve in a foreign military. Among wealthy Americans of Jewish origin, having their sons and daughters serve in the Israeli military is sort of an honor shared by the entire family. These same sons and daughters and families would never consider serving in the United States military. The above coupled with ultra-liberal views here in the U.S. and ultra-hawkish views with regards to Israel give me pause. These things and the USS Liberty. Murder Eric. In my mind the only place you hurt your credibility is in defending anything and everything Jewish or Israeli. No person, people or country is perfect. (Good history ! I didn't know about the Texas volunteers of 1836.)
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 5:24:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By BobCole: We have to pay the Israeli govt versus their individual citizens .......
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Why do we 'HAVE' to pay anyone ?
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Now there's a novel idea. [:D]
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 5:30:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
originally by NormG: You are truly blinded by your own prejudices.
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Then enlighten me. Argue the points, don't just smear the point-maker.
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All of your points have been refuted numerous times. You can't see through the self impose thick haze of your prejudice. As much as I like the nickname you've picked out for yourself, I think your just pathetic in your world view. Comparing US welfare to supporting Israel. Come on!
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 5:49:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Norm_G:
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All of your points have been refuted numerous times. You can't see through the self impose thick haze of your prejudice. As much as I like the nickname you've picked out for yourself, I think your just pathetic in your world view. Comparing US welfare to supporting Israel. Come on!
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Well? Do you or don't you have anything to say?
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 5:54:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Norm_G: All of your points have been refuted numerous times.
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Patently FALSE. The points raised above have NEVER been discussed in this forum.
You can't see through the self impose thick haze of your prejudice.
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I have given point-by-point reasoning (above) as to why I think what I think. Which you are free and ENCOURAGED (do you want me to BEG???) to discredit and disprove. YOU SEEM TO BE REFUSING TO DO SO, choosing rather to call me willfully blind, but giving NO ZERO NADA reasoning for why you say that. With your REFUSAL to debate, I gotta wonder if YOU have a self-imposed haze.
As much as I like the nickname you've picked out for yourself,
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Gee some faint praise here.... [BD]
I think your just pathetic in your world view. Comparing US welfare to supporting Israel. Come on!
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Then it should be "easy pickin's" for you to, using logic and reason, show what a fool I am. Your refusal to do this (choosing rather to call me willfully blind, and my viewpoint pathetic) raises two possibilities in my mind - Either... 1. You refuse to give what I am saying a fair hearing (possibly out of fear as tho where it might logically lead you) or, 2. You have given it a fair hearing, and you DO NOT like where it has logically led you. Other possibilities exist, but, as the person holding to the OTHER side of this debate, these two come to my mind re: you.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:14:43 AM EDT
Post from 5subslr5 -
These things and the USS Liberty. Murder Eric.
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I'm not certain that wealthy Jews in the US would ever want their children to serve in the IDF, at all. It would certainly be news to me.
In my mind the only place you hurt your credibility is in defending anything and everything Jewish or Israeli.
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Now for that I am truly sorry, because it is the very last thing I would want to do subsailor - to diminish my credibility with you. But you must understand that my friends are my friends. When push comes to shove and you ever need my help in any matter whatsoever, just simply say, 'Hun, come to my rescue' or 'lend me a hand' and I will be there. I will not stop to argue with you about your views on the USS Liberty, I won't pause in my actions to chide you for any remarks you may have made about me being one-sided on Israel's behalf, I won't point out times where you got me with one of your excellent witticisms, I'll simply throw Scooter and some weaponry in the Jeep and head North! That's what I believe friends should do. Always. After the fracas, we'll have time and enough to spare to go over your serious errors, but only when there is no longer any threat to you and yours. Well, I feel the same way about Israel. They have done numerous wrong things and have failed on many occasions to do what I believe to be right! But in the middle of a fight for their lives and very existence, I will not quibble about such miniscule matters. I'll save it for the 'weenie roast' after the fight is over! Or should I say, for the 'marriage feast' when the fight is over.[:D] Eric The(EverFaithful,EverVigilant)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:22:39 AM EDT
BTW, [b]subsailor[/b], here's a link to the story of the [b]'Twin Sisters'[/b] that figured so well in Texas Revolutionary history. It just shows you how the good folks of Cincinnati, Ohio, viewed their friends in the soon-to-be-purchased-with-blood Republic of Texas. It's what friends are for. [url]http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/TT/qvt1.html[/url] Eric The(No,It'sNotAPornSite!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:40:58 AM EDT
Eric - re: your post to subslr above. I gotta admit, I have difficulty handling what I perceive as a divided loyalty in you - part to israel, part to the US. How much a "part" entails I do not know. And I'll admit, I've had some hard feelings toward you due to this. But I'll publicly apologize for that here and now. I don't beleive it was right of me, as you are a brother in arms. While I may not understand how you can hold to this (what I perceive as a ) divided loyalty, I'll take you at your word if push came to shove, it would be America First, and leave it at that. Above all, I suppose, you are my brother in arms. (And in Christ) And that should be enuf. Peace, garandman
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:56:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:57:27 AM EDT
[b]garandman[/b], what hard feelings? If there were any at all, they are gone now and we shall never speak of the matter again. But I do appreciate your public display of true loyalty to your friends. If there was anything I said, directly or indirectly, that caused you any anguish, and I know full well that there must have been, you know that I sincerely apologize to you for that, as well. In the meanwhile, please understand that I view Israel as the US's only friend in the Middle East. And it is because of this, that I give Israel such a wide latitude in dealing with its problems. Egyptian President Mubarak just said we'd better not take out Saddam. The Jordanian King says we'd better not take out Saddam. The Syrians say we'd better not take out Saddam. Even the Iranians say we'd better not take out Saddam. And of course, Saddam says we better not take him out! What does little Israel say? Take-Out Saddam? Goody, when do we get to eat? But is Saddam Take-Out kosher? Actually, I'm certain they'd say 'Let's Roll.' Eric The(Loyal,Faithful,Rude)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 8:12:32 AM EDT
People Of The Promise made to Abraham Those who bless you, I will bless, Those who curse you I will curse. signed ,G-d Should we just let Israel go down the tubes let the infidals of Islam murder every man woman and child? Islam will allow a Christian who renounces Christ in front of witnesses to become a Muslim. Jews on the other hand must be killed.If the aid to welfare recipiants in the USA dries up and a few fall through the cracks in your arguement means going to a soup kitchen and perhaps hearing the gospel. In your Israel analogy under the same withdrawel of aid means Islamic hordes from all over the middle east descent upon Israel and kill every Jew..Ahh Youve gotta be trolling on this We fought in Korea, Vietnam, all over the world..this cost us our kids lives well being and many never fully enjoy the lives they might have had someone else fought in their place..So tell me G-man what is worth fighting for if not Israel. Wars cost money..we fund Israel in their fight against our enemies..they are our eyes and ears in the Middle East...I hope you are being a troll on this issue if not...you have a serious screw loose..imo of course
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 8:20:34 AM EDT
G-man if nothing destroys your crediblity like hypocricy..and you feel you are paying taxes to support marxism then isnt paying your taxes the ulitimate form of hipocracy ? Be true to your school...oh thats right this is merely academic and wont lead to any real action..lol
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 8:24:01 AM EDT
joesnuffy - You have both misinterpreted God's promise to the INDIVIDUAL Abraham, AND ommitted a CRUCIALLY important part OF THAT PROMISE. (See genesis 12: 1-3) Further, you have neglected to consider the New Testament expalnation of that promise (See Galatians 3, Romans 2, 4 and 9-11, among others) Further, you have raised a whole bunch of questions that ARE NOT AT ISSUE HERE. My question relates to whether we SELECTIVELY apply the principles of conservatism. My question is SPECIFICALLY about the self-reliance, personal responsibility, limited taxation, and small gov't tenets we conservatives hold to. If you wish to discuss THAT, I'd be glad to. But don't mudddy the waters with OTHER issues. If you want to raise a thousand OTHER issues, then we haven't a basis for discussion.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 8:34:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2002 8:39:03 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By joesnuffy: G-man if nothing destroys your crediblity like hypocricy..and you feel you are paying taxes to support marxism then isnt paying your taxes the ulitimate form of hipocracy ?
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Hypocrisy is an act of the will. I am forced AGINST MY WILL to fund ALL FORMS of socialist welfare, including that to Israel, and other things I disagree with, including but not limited to Robbert mapplethorpe's "art", the public school system, the United Nations, etc etc etc. You can't call someone a "hypocrite" who is forced to do something against his will at gunpoint [rolleyes]
Be true to your school...oh thats right this is merely academic and wont lead to any real action..lol
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yes, and if you would engage in this academic pursuit, [b]rather than trying to avoid answering my initial questions, and making ME the issue, [/b] then maybe we would come to some conclusions, AND ACTUALLY GET SOMETHING DONE ABOUT IT.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:06:05 AM EDT
Well, I've heard ALOT of excuse making so far, but not much approaching reasoned argument disproving my initial assertion. Since I'm a big hearted guy, I'll give y'all another crack at it. I'll even re-phrase teh question for ya - I'm NOT interested in EXCUSES to support Israel in contradiction of our Conservative principles....I'm asking why..... ....do our Conservative principles prohibit us from stealing $$$$ from US taxpayers to give to the black ehtnicity in alignment with Marxist social engineering, but our Conserative principles do NOT prohibit us from stealing $$$ from US taxpayers to give to the Jewish ethnicity in alignment with Marxist social engineering principles??? ( I DO suggest however, you re-read my initial question to get the full scope of my question. Above is a rather poor Readers Digest version) '['sarcasm]And again, let's just go ahead and concede I'm a racist, bigoted, anti-Semitic, pro terrorist, Nazi-wannabe, POS a-hole (and whatever else the people who don't have the ability to construct a REAL argument want to accuse me of)['/sarcasm] Now, can we discuss my question????
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 7:00:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2002 7:02:40 AM EDT by hound]
Hello G...let me answer..as you know I have stayed out of the Israeli debates--personally and historically I have admired these people for a long time for their attitudes and their know-how..but the other night a friend of mine introduced me to her life...she has palestinian family members..and my friend it ain't pretty. Now for all the other crap...the government decided that Israel was the way to go years ago. And they have been giving them treats for a long time. But they aren't the only one and they are not even the most important one..how about the Soviet Union or China...you see where this is going. Some of the Pro-israeli crowd on this board believe the official line more than they do their own reasoning...let's just put an end to it and remember when the politicians get involved, you don't have any friends--just paid accomplices
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 7:21:20 AM EDT
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