Quoted:

You and I discussed this in the GD thread on the crash, but these are the exact kind of witnesses I've seen mentioned in a number of NTSB reports. Or, I heard/saw the witness' interview with media somewhere, and then later matched their statement to the final NTSB probable cause report. Let's just say...these kinds of witnesses don't have the best track record.

It seems like 75% of the time you have a guy 55+ who will say "it sounded like they were having engine trouble" and "they were flying really low. Much lower than any planes/helicopters I usually see around here." Sometimes that morphs into statements of certitude if they've already told their story to a few family/friends or the media. "He was having engine trouble. I heard a sputtering noise, looked up, and saw smoke/fire." "The engine must've cutout on him all the way because everything went silent and then I saw even more smoke/fire."

Half the time these guys SAW or HEARD almost NOTHING that is useful to investigators, and their story is often contradicted by evidence from the accident site. What probably happened is they heard the impact, or saw the smoke/fire from the crash site, and a story pops in their head that they remember hearing a plane flying really low, and he must've been having engine problems because he was flying really low, and the engine sounded funny. They forget, or somehow memory-hole, that an aircraft typically has to fly pretty low to crash in the first place.

It's a weird thing eyewitnesses do in these situations. I think you hit the nail on the head. It's to deal with the trauma or they believe it will somehow aid the investigation.

I saw my first plane crash when I was seven years old. Very small plane crashed into the house directly across the street in our subdivision. Pilot and co-pilot were seriously injured, but both lived. I remember being on the scene right after it happened as everyone in the neighborhood ran outdoors. It was a very tight knit neighborhood, so some neighbors, including my father, went to check on the occupants of the house. Plane ended up with its nose in their master bedroom, and with the homeowner (my friend's dad) sitting in his recliner across from it. Thankfully, no fire.

Another set of neighbors pulled the pilot and co-pilot out. I just remember them laying them out in the front yard and that there was a fair amount of blood. One of the pilots had blunt force trauma to the head from impact, and we all know how head wounds bleed. The final cause was fuel starvation due to dry tanks. Hence the lack of fire.

The really ironic thing is that approximately a year after the plane crashed into the neighbor's house across the street, my own father died in an aviation accident. He was a business executive, and the company's corporate jet crashed into a mountain due to fog. Pilots deviated from their original IFR flight plan due to passengers returning late, so the pilots decided to try a little scud-running. They took off VFR and attempted to request an IFR clearance once they were airborne. Classic case of get-there-itis combined with scud-running ending in CFIT.

CVR transcript shows that the pilots essentially became somewhat spatially disoriented. They more or less debated over where the terrain was going to be located per the CVR. And although they were actively trying to avoid the terrain, (a mountain as well as an antenna) they were also dealing with overhead traffic and wx that was completely unsuitable for VFR conditions. PIC was pretty damn experienced. 16000+ hours. First Officer had a little over 3000. I used to have a copy of the full CVR transcript. I think I deleted it years ago in an attempt to get closure.

Everyone was killed instantly. Nine dead. The Kobe Bryant accident's similarities (nine fatalities and a likely cause of foggy wx leading to CFIT) has re-opened some old wounds. Particularly since it was already on my mind a lot some the 29th anniversary was last month.

I'd never post this on GD, and I'm going to take it down in a day or two, but here's a link to the NTSB accident report.

Close to 30 years later, I am still haunted by what happened. To add insult to injury, the crash site was essentially right on the summit of the mountain they impacted. Almost made it.

Quoted:

ATC can not issue an IFR clearance to an inflight aircraft until the aircraft meets minimum IFR altitude for the route of flight, they have established communication and are able to guarantee IFR separation from all other IFR traffic in the area.  It *may be possible* do that by having the aircraft maintain VFR until reaching a specified altitude and arriving at named IFR reporting point but, realistically, controllers are not going to want to issue an IFR clearance to a pop up aircraft they have not positively identified on secondary radar or via ADS-B.

Quoted:
The multiple orbits over Glendale indicate he knew he was in trouble at that point.
They should have diverted then.
He pressed on.

Quoted:
The multiple orbits over Glendale indicate he knew he was in trouble at that point.
They should have diverted then.
He pressed on.

Quoted:

The hold was forced by atc due to the proximity of IFR traffic in the area.  At that point, there was no issue other than somewhat poor visibility.

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He had SVFR before leaving the ground.

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SVFR is only good in the surface area of the controller who issues it. You can't go between tower controlled air spaces SVFR

Quoted:
An interesting article about the charter company that possibly explains  some of the (what appears to be )bad decision making

The helicopter that crashed Sunday killing basketball star Kobe Bryant and eight others was owned by a charter company that only operated under visual flight rules, and its pilots were not permitted to fly solely based on their cockpit gauges in weather that limited visibility, a former pilot for the company told Forbes.

The pilot of the doomed flight, Ara Zobayan, was licensed to fly by cockpit instruments, but he likely had little real-world experience in doing so given the operating limitations of Island Express Helicopters, says Kurt Deetz, a former pilot for the company who flew Bryant for two years.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2020/01/29/pilot-in-kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-wasnt-allowed-to-fly-by-instruments/?utm_source=FACEBOOK&utm_medium=social&utm_term=Valerie%2F&fbclid=IwAR3wR9cj2cLz-Mt6MGT0bzzDwr3yQzPjFzDolrevUpBn0vnfXdcoSywaBro#b9057e826ea3

Quoted:
An interesting article about the charter company that possibly explains  some of the (what appears to be )bad decision making

The helicopter that crashed Sunday killing basketball star Kobe Bryant and eight others was owned by a charter company that only operated under visual flight rules, and its pilots were not permitted to fly solely based on their cockpit gauges in weather that limited visibility, a former pilot for the company told Forbes.

The pilot of the doomed flight, Ara Zobayan, was licensed to fly by cockpit instruments, but he likely had little real-world experience in doing so given the operating limitations of Island Express Helicopters, says Kurt Deetz, a former pilot for the company who flew Bryant for two years.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2020/01/29/pilot-in-kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-wasnt-allowed-to-fly-by-instruments/?utm_source=FACEBOOK&utm_medium=social&utm_term=Valerie%2F&fbclid=IwAR3wR9cj2cLz-Mt6MGT0bzzDwr3yQzPjFzDolrevUpBn0vnfXdcoSywaBro#b9057e826ea3

Quoted:

Meh, just because your company policy is "VFR only" doesn't mean you don't look at your instruments especially if you go IIMC. The article kind implied that.

Pretty sure even a general aviation, private license only ticket holder is taught what to do if you punch in.

Quoted:

Ouch.
If all that's true...didn't read the article BTW.
How many times had the pilot flown Kobe and had the flown previously in bad weather or has he flown anyone else in bad weather.
I'm sure a lawsuit is inbound

Quoted:

Safe ifr requires consistent use to maintain currency.  A private pilot with what little basic training will likely die in accidental imc.

Quoted:

But this wasn't just a private pilot. This was a current CFII, so training level shouldn't be an issue. Competency, maybe.

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Training and certification for your instrument rating and CFII is for IFR flight!!!!!  It is not training and certification for IIMC, nor was this an IFR flight.  It may help you once you get into IIMC and transition, but the transition phase it was kills pilots (both instrument and non-rated) all the time.

Quoted:

I  agree but a CFII or even an IFR rated pilot should be able recognize the conditions and respond more appropriately to IIMC well before Joe private pilot.

Quoted:

......or they are more confident they can bust through it because they are more "trained" than Joe Private Pilot (who may have never taken off in the first place.)

Read the stats on how many helicopter IIMC/CFIT accidents are by instrument rated pilots in very well equipped helicopters.

It's the exact opposite of what you think.

Quoted:

I have heard no discussion on the issue of currency.  I read the pilot was a CFI-I.  So he was certainly capable (at one time) of handling any sort of IMC up to the limits of legality.  But everyone knows these skills have a very short shelf life.  Hence the stringent currency requirements.  I doubt he was current, and therefore could not legally have accepted an IFR clearance.  While you can do anything necessary to meet an emergency, no one declares unless it is unavoidable.  Yes, he would possibly be alive, but he'd be facing an enforcement action and probably be looking for another line of work.  Additionally, I imagine in that area IFR would be difficult and time-consuming compared to a VFR flight.  His passengers had a schedule to meet, and IFR would have taken much longer.

Quoted:

I know of an incident in the last couple of years, where an EMS pilot went IIMC, did everything correctly to recover.  Declared an emergency, followed ATC instructions.  Landed safely.

Not only kept his job, but the FSDO actually complimented him on how he handled the situation.

That particular FSDO, and the company involved, both believed in having a "Just Culture".  Both saw that culture leading to safer outcomes in the event of an emergency, vs pilots trying to "make it work" when shit got bad to avoid enforcement action.

Quoted:

This is by far the best thread on it.

Thanks to the OP and posters.

Quoted:

Multiple airspaces......

He took off at John Wayne (Class C).  Field was VFR, he did not need a SVFR clearance.

He flew north VFR in Class G (he was well under the Class E transition area and the Class B for LAX).  He may have passed through a few Class D's on the way north like Los Alamidos or Long Beach.

Then he wanted to transition Burbank's Class C, but the field was IFR.  So he requested a SVFR clearance.  There was IFR traffic, and they have priority, so he had to wait outside the class C surface area circling.  (Some airport's have SVFR transition routes for helicopters on a Letter of Agreement that they can use even with IFR traffic, but this doesn't seem to be the case with this airport or operator.)  Soon as the IFR traffic cleared, the tower gave him the clearance and let him fly through the Class C surface area of Burbank.

Then he passed through Van Nuys's Class D which I believe he also did on a SVFR clearance.   It sits under the Burbank class C, so he would have been in their class D the second he left Burbank's Class C.

Then once he left Van Nuys's class D, he was back in Class G (non-controlled, no SVFR needed) as long as he stayed under 700 AGL.  That's when they offered him flight following, but he was too low (he was at 100-200 AGL).

I really don't know why everybody is hung up on clearances, airspace, and rules here.....it's procedural stuff and doesn't really have anything to do with the accident itself.  The WX was getting along his route and if he would have turned around or landed we would have never heard about this.  But since he's dead, everybody is so concerned about the events leading up to it......all of which were legal and procedural.  It's the last minute that's what counts.  The guy was flying into a canyon with low ceilings and diminishing viability @ 100-200 ft AGL at 140-150 kts.  That's what killed 9 and all that matters.  Drop the all the worry about him holding outside airspace or getting a SVFR clearance (it happens 100s of times a day if not 1000s all across the country anywhere the WX is below VFR.)

Quoted:

I'll bet the FSDO went over his log books.  Did he accept an IFR clearance?  Was he current?

And knock if off with this talk about the FAA/FSDO being reasonable.  Heresy!  ;-)

Quoted:
I'm an armchair pilot of computer generated planes and fascinated enough with aviation to follow much of the lingo from y'all real pilots...

And every time I read what you real pilots say about incidents like this convinces me that I was uncharacteristically wise in never spending the money on a pilot's license.

I can tell I'd be the kind of pilot whom you'd be talking about, and I am so very grateful that discussions like this keep me from actual aircraft.

Thank you!

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A close friend of who is a helo piloit and flies a very similar corporate chopper, said first thing you do in those types of conditions is slow the F down.  60 or 70 knots vs 150 gives you considerably more reaction time.  It appears Kobe’s pilot was wide open (or nearly so) the last 10 minutes leading up to the accident

Quoted:
A theory from Yahoo...

"I did not know Kobe and I am not a basketball fan. So I am examining this from an independent viewpoint.....Does anyone else believe that the crash could have been caused by Kobe attacking the pilot either in a fit of rage or maybe a drug induced rage ? Then only after the pilot was rendered helpless Kobe realized that no one could fly the helicopter. I am sure that Kobe being the type of person that he was that he tried to fly the helicopter but to fly one you need training which he did not have. It would be very telling to know if they found Kobe's remains in the pilot's seat. It would also be telling if they found the pilot's remains lying on the floor in the helicopter or maybe bound and gagged in the back seat.....Kobe was a young strong man and the pilot was weaker and older....The pictures on here show that the fog was not that bed, the pilot was very trained and the helicopter was state of the art....That only leaves the fact that the pilot was attacked and overcome.....I do not know if Kobe was addicted to hallucinogenic drugs (Magic Mushrooms) or maybe just a casual user. I am sure that a blood test will reveal this......"

Think about the fact that this individual can be responsible for at least one vote.

Quoted:
A theory from Yahoo...

"I did not know Kobe and I am not a basketball fan. So I am examining this from an independent viewpoint.....Does anyone else believe that the crash could have been caused by Kobe attacking the pilot either in a fit of rage or maybe a drug induced rage ? Then only after the pilot was rendered helpless Kobe realized that no one could fly the helicopter. I am sure that Kobe being the type of person that he was that he tried to fly the helicopter but to fly one you need training which he did not have. It would be very telling to know if they found Kobe's remains in the pilot's seat. It would also be telling if they found the pilot's remains lying on the floor in the helicopter or maybe bound and gagged in the back seat.....Kobe was a young strong man and the pilot was weaker and older....The pictures on here show that the fog was not that bed, the pilot was very trained and the helicopter was state of the art....That only leaves the fact that the pilot was attacked and overcome.....I do not know if Kobe was addicted to hallucinogenic drugs (Magic Mushrooms) or maybe just a casual user. I am sure that a blood test will reveal this......"

Think about the fact that this individual can be responsible for at least one vote.

Quoted:
A theory from Yahoo...

"I did not know Kobe and I am not a basketball fan. So I am examining this from an independent viewpoint.....Does anyone else believe that the crash could have been caused by Kobe attacking the pilot either in a fit of rage or maybe a drug induced rage ? Then only after the pilot was rendered helpless Kobe realized that no one could fly the helicopter. I am sure that Kobe being the type of person that he was that he tried to fly the helicopter but to fly one you need training which he did not have. It would be very telling to know if they found Kobe's remains in the pilot's seat. It would also be telling if they found the pilot's remains lying on the floor in the helicopter or maybe bound and gagged in the back seat.....Kobe was a young strong man and the pilot was weaker and older....The pictures on here show that the fog was not that bed, the pilot was very trained and the helicopter was state of the art....That only leaves the fact that the pilot was attacked and overcome.....I do not know if Kobe was addicted to hallucinogenic drugs (Magic Mushrooms) or maybe just a casual user. I am sure that a blood test will reveal this......"

Think about the fact that this individual can be responsible for at least one vote.

Quoted:
A theory from Yahoo...

"I did not know Kobe and I am not a basketball fan. So I am examining this from an independent viewpoint.....Does anyone else believe that the crash could have been caused by Kobe attacking the pilot either in a fit of rage or maybe a drug induced rage ? Then only after the pilot was rendered helpless Kobe realized that no one could fly the helicopter. I am sure that Kobe being the type of person that he was that he tried to fly the helicopter but to fly one you need training which he did not have. It would be very telling to know if they found Kobe's remains in the pilot's seat. It would also be telling if they found the pilot's remains lying on the floor in the helicopter or maybe bound and gagged in the back seat.....Kobe was a young strong man and the pilot was weaker and older....The pictures on here show that the fog was not that bed, the pilot was very trained and the helicopter was state of the art....That only leaves the fact that the pilot was attacked and overcome.....I do not know if Kobe was addicted to hallucinogenic drugs (Magic Mushrooms) or maybe just a casual user. I am sure that a blood test will reveal this......"

Think about the fact that this individual can be responsible for at least one vote.